Feelings Aren't Facts:Taking Things Personally-A Masterclass in Misery

EP95: Feelings Aren't Facts

00:00:00 Erin: You're listening to After the Tones Drop, the mental health podcast for first responders.

00:00:07 Cinnamon: We're your hosts. I'm Cinnamon, a first responder trauma therapist.

00:00:11 Erin: And I'm Erin, a first responder integration coach.

00:00:15 Cinnamon: Our show brings you stories from real first responders, the tools they've learned, and the lives they now get to live.

00:00:29 Cinnamon: Four.

00:00:29 Erin: Six, seven, eight.

00:00:31 Cinnamon: Five, six, seven, eight. Schlemiel! Schlimazel! Shots and beverage incorporated.

00:00:37 Erin: Is that what they say?

00:00:38 Cinnamon: Shots and beverage incorporated. We're gonna do it. I think so.

00:00:44 Erin: I have no idea what they say, but I didn't think it was that, but I don't know, so you could be right.

00:00:49 Cinnamon: Yeah, because they work at the beer bottling company in Milwaukee. Yeah, I'm pretty sure. I mean, this may be a trivia question.

00:01:00 Erin: Are you taking it personally that I'm questioning you?

00:01:03 Cinnamon: Yeah, like, why are you just not going, oh my God, Cinnamon, you're so smart. I can't believe you knew that. I'm like, yes, I can sing many a theme song to 1980s shows.

00:01:14 Erin: You are so smart.

00:01:17 Cinnamon: There we go. See, the idea that you were gonna ask me if I, if that's actually what they said tells me that you don't think I'm smart.

00:01:28 Erin: Yeah, I know. I'm sure you're glad that I admitted it finally.

00:01:31 Cinnamon: Yeah.

00:01:32 Erin: And here on After the Tones Drop, we wanna welcome you to our typical Friday banter.

00:01:39 Cinnamon: But this is purpose.

00:01:40 Erin: I know.

00:01:41 Cinnamon: This is purpose.

00:01:42 Erin: It is purposeful, because today we're talking about something that happens in every single relationship, hence our example that we just gave you. And that's whether it's your partner, it could be your spouse, it could be a coworker and it's all about taking things personally when it's really not about you.

00:02:00 Erin: And it rarely is about you. As we were talking about this, I was like, oh man, my husband is gonna get a giant chuckle. He is going to find it so interesting and funny that we are choosing to speak about this topic because this is my relationship in a nutshell is the way that I tend to take things personally no matter how hard I try when it comes especially to my husband.

00:02:27 Erin: And it's even part of the Four Agreements, which is an awesome book. It's the Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom. I highly recommend that you check it out. But one of the four agreements is do not take anything personally. And if I want freedom in my life, I got to stop taking things personally.

00:02:47 Cinnamon: I think we've all been there. In fact, we may be there right now because I just looked it up and it's actually 'Schlemiel! Schlimazel!' which is a Yiddish American hopscotch chant. And then it says, Hasenpfeffer Incorporated, not shots and beverage incorporated. So I don't know what Hasenpfeffer is, but I promise to find out.

00:03:14 Erin: It's the business. If it's Hasenpfeffer Incorporated.

00:03:17 Cinnamon: That may be the beer company they work at. That is hilarious. So the fictitious Schatz Brewery in Milwaukee. So yes, it makes sense why, you know how I said the other day, our brains will take confetti and make a whole 8.5 by 11 piece of paper out of it. So I thought I heard something. I then made the connection between the Schatz Brewery that they worked at and made something up that was complete bullshit. And then got mad when you didn't just take me at my word and turned it into a whole story about how you thought I was stupid, which is why we have all been there.

00:03:52 Cinnamon: Someone we care about is upset. We can tell, like if we're asking somebody if they're upset, it's usually more of like, do you know you're upset? Cause I'm aware that you're upset.

00:04:03 Erin: Because you are making me uncomfortable with your upsetness.

00:04:05 Cinnamon: Cause you are making me uncomfortable in your upsetness. Because many of us can have that codependent quality of like your mood is gonna dictate my mood. So we ask and as a response, a hundred times they will say no, nothing. Nothing is wrong. And when they finally do open up, we make it about us. We start defending ourselves.

00:04:28 Erin: Yeah, and that's where the shit literally hits the fan. In my relationship, and I imagine most people's relationships, is that the person who is actually struggling, who's having the issue in the first place, now feels like, okay, I'm gonna finally open up, get this person off my back, and tell them what the thing is, even though it's clearly not about them and the other person ends up getting defensive or trying to explain themselves.

00:04:55 Erin: And so now I'm already upset about my thing, but now I also have to manage your reaction to the situation, which all that does to me is make me regret, or all that does is make the other person regret that they said anything in the first place.

00:05:10 Cinnamon: And then comes the line, see, this is why I didn't wanna say anything.

00:05:15 Erin: Yeah, ouch.

00:05:16 Cinnamon: Like I am keeping my mouth shut because I understand perhaps, I don't wanna assume this is everyone, but I understand that my anger in this situation may be misplaced, right? I'm trying to figure out why the thing that you did is bothering me. I know that it's something bigger, like I'm mad at you, but I'm not really mad at you. And I'm not bringing you in to this process because I need to figure this out on my own. I don't need you in the process to help me figure this out.

00:05:52 Cinnamon: And once I make you aware of it, then now we are in this process and that's one people too many. So for me to like work through that with I end up saying nothing, because if I do tell you, there's no space for you to say, oh, okay, thanks for sharing that with me. I'm gonna go to the other room or I'm gonna do whatever and you let me know if you want me to come back in here and talk to you, like continue to work out your feels. We don't do that.

00:06:22 Erin: I would give a million dollars if I could react like that. Oh, I hear you, I see. Okay, well, thank you for sharing that with me. Let me know if there's anything I can do and walk away. Holy crap, how amazing. And the thing is like, you had mentioned something about something you have done has bothered me, but I know it's not actually you, it's the thing under the thing, but often it has nothing to do with us in the first place.

00:06:45 Erin: And then it never has anything to do with us in the first place, because we can go back to episode whatever last year, when we were talking about the behavior chain and see how we react.

00:06:56 Cinnamon: Yep. So even bringing that in, and you're right, I'm thinking of a specific example where I actually am mad at you, but it's still not because of what you did. It's because of my misplaced interpretation. And even if I am mad at you, it's still not yours to fix. And so when you start defending yourself, I'm like, I know that. I don't need that. I'm working this out.

00:07:25 Cinnamon: And if we look at the behavior chain, which you just brought up, if every time the activating event is, hey, is something wrong or what's wrong? I know it's gonna result in you getting upset and defending your actions, then that's going to make me double down on the, I'm just gonna say nothing. And if I do tell you and you're like, oh, okay, interesting. Work that out and let me know if you need me. Then I'm like, damn, maybe I can do that again. And it opens up those lines of communication. But we're teaching people how we handle things.

00:08:02 Erin: Yep. And especially when you've been with someone for a while, it's like, I already know how this is gonna end and I'm doing my best just to like not make it about them to almost protect them in some kind of way. And it's easiest for us to assume that we're the problem. And maybe it's like from guilt and security, just the idea that you are a fixer or I am a fixer.

00:08:28 Cinnamon: That you didn't come home with a big smile on your face and greet me. Why wouldn't you? If you don't love me, why wouldn't you do that? Maybe because I had a rough shift.

00:08:37 Erin: Yeah. And also it's easy for our brains to love a good story and to make up a good story. So if someone is distant or quiet, we are gonna fill in the blanks with whatever we can come up with to try to comprehend why this is happening. Like, they must be mad at me. I must have done something wrong. Why don't they just tell me what I did and it will all go away, which we know that's not true.

00:09:00 Cinnamon: But here's the thing, like we said, it has nothing to do with us. Most of the time it is likely that we are not even the thing under the thing, or the thing on top of the thing. There are gonna be times where we are the thing, that the thing is actually underneath, but sometimes we have to acknowledge that people just need space to figure out their own feelings before they talk about them. And what they're trying to do is not have an unnecessary argument. Like I'm already busy with this task of figuring out my feelings. The last thing I need to do is mediate yours.

00:09:40 Erin: Absolutely.

00:09:41 Cinnamon: Because now you are the problem and we are gonna have a fight.

00:09:45 Erin: Yeah, and we kind of already set the scene for you, but we'll just run through it one more time just to kind of hear the nature of the way these conversations can go. So I walk up to my partner, my partner seems off and I say, what's wrong? And then the response is, nothing. So then I ask again, are you sure something seems wrong? And then I get my nothing again. And then I repeat that over and over and over again.

00:10:15 Cinnamon: And wow, wouldn't it be cool if instead of both of us knowing that I'm probably lying, that I don't have to lie, I can tell you the truth. Cause then I know I can trust, or I trust that I don't have to manage a reaction. So by the hundredth time you say it, they finally do say something to get you to stop asking, but instead of just listening, you get defensive. Well, you're mad about what I did. Well, I didn't mean it that way, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then it's, well, why didn't you just tell me before? Why do you always shut me out? Why do you never tell me what's going on? And I'm like, maybe because of this.

00:10:52 Erin: Right, because exactly, that is when the argument starts. And so instead of feeling heard, the person who's struggling now has to defend themselves. Oh, and that's so freaking aggravating. And I know when I watch my husband do this, I know I'm like, oh shit, I crossed the line. And then I'm backpedaling, like, I'm sorry, I can see what I just did there. And that wasn't my point. And I apologize. I want you to continue sharing with me. But at that point, they're like, nope, this is why I don't tell you anything. I don't feel supported. And it turns into a bigger thing than what it needed to turn into.

00:11:27 Cinnamon: Yeah, crossing that line can sting. But they're not saying it to be mean. They're saying it because they weren't trying to hide anything from you. They're just trying to process it for themselves first. And I think we've talked about that whole incident with you, me, and Ed on the deck at a different episode when he was clearly mad. Like Ed's my husband, if you don't know, and Aaron was staying with us and Ed was upset. I mean, there would have been a good reason we could point to that he would be upset perhaps at us.

00:12:01 Cinnamon: But when you're like, are you just gonna let him go in the house? Like, you're not gonna go in and follow him in and do anything and say anything. And I was like, I just sat back on the deck and I'm like, oh, no. He's not angry at me. Like he thinks he might be angry at me, but I know he's not angry at me. So I just left him alone to work through his feelings. If he didn't invite me into it, I'm not gonna insert myself into it.

00:12:22 Cinnamon: If it was something he would have been like, Cinnamon, can you come in here so I can talk to you for a minute? And then I would have respectfully have done that. But we ended up not having an argument because I didn't pry.

00:12:33 Erin: You didn't take it personally.

00:12:35 Cinnamon: I didn't take it personally. And why am I looking for a street fight? Like, why would I go looking? If he's not coming to me, why would I go looking for a fight?

00:12:49 Erin: Well, that's a whole nother episode. Cause we actually know the answer.

00:12:53 Cinnamon: Yeah, okay, I'm gonna browse. I need to rumble.

00:12:57 Erin: We have an idea what the answer is, which we will do on another episode. But here's the thing. I think that we've all been in this position at some point or another, because when we feel like we have something to lose, you know, we're not going to gain something, it's easy for us to go to this space to try to quote unquote, fix it, to take things personally. But there are ways that we can stop the cycle.

00:13:23 Erin: And I want to say the first thing is to recognize that not everyone processes things the same way as you. Some people need to talk things out just to figure out, okay, clearly this isn't about them, so what is bothering me in this moment? And others also need to sit with their thoughts before they can even put them into words. I know that that is a response I get from my husband all the time. I'm actually not even sure what the thing is in this moment. So I need some time to actually say, okay, what is the thing? And for me, it's usually not fast enough, but that's not his problem, that's my problem.

00:14:01 Cinnamon: Yeah. One thing I've noticed, I feel like I'm as close to you and spend maybe even more time with you than I do my husband. And what I do notice is there are those of us who are external processors where we talk through it. And then we have the internal processors where they think through it. So instead of just thinking my thoughts, I talk through my thoughts. And I had to learn, I'm like, oh, some people actually just think about stuff and they can untangle it without saying a thing.

00:14:41 Erin: Yeah, and it also goes back to the different development of men and women's brains. And we talk about that in one of our trainings, which we'll definitely get to do an episode on that. It's not women talk through it because we go back and forth from left and right. We are much more emotionally focused. That is how we process things. And it just is. It's the way that our brains are wired.

00:15:07 Cinnamon: It's not good or bad. Just neutral.

00:15:11 Erin: And sometimes it's not like men, women specific necessarily, but if we're going back just to science alone, that our brains were designed by whomever, whatever, us human beings to operate differently for very specific reasons. So you might see one gender doing one thing more than another.

00:15:36 Cinnamon: Yeah, I took us on a little bit of a tangent, important tangent, but thank you for including, like I feel like that's your specialty area, like knowing how to understand behavior by way of the what men are from Mars and women are from Venus or whatever that whole thing was.

00:15:55 Cinnamon: Going back to our goal of how do we potentially modify our behavior to not take it so personally, I go back to that nothing, that very first nothing response. If someone says nothing at first, it doesn't necessarily mean that they don't trust you or that they're intentionally shutting you out. It just means they're trying to figure things out still. And that's kind of like what you said when sometimes Rob is just like, I don't even know what's bothering me yet. I need a minute.

00:16:28 Erin: Again, different episode. It is a fact that people do have nothing boxes and by people, I mean men. But we'll talk about that later. It's a cliffhanger. But I want to say that if someone does finally start opening up, I think what's important to do is that we check our reaction.

00:16:50 Cinnamon: Yes.

00:16:51 Erin: Quickly. So if you're the kind of person that gets defensive or frustrated and makes it about you, then give yourself the opportunity just to pause and say, okay, I'm gonna commit to being silent in this moment as they share, and I'm not going to respond and see what opens up for you. So notice how hard their silence was for you. And then, if you can actually figure out, okay, well, what is it about them being silent?

00:17:22 Erin: So it's kind of like an open opportunity for us to look at, well, what is it about them being silent that bothers me so much that I can't handle it, that I need to pry, or I need to try to get them to talk?

00:17:32 Cinnamon: Which then gives us results that are the exact opposite of what we want. Because they're gonna shut down again. And that is exactly what we don't want. So recognizing that discomfort and where it's coming from so we don't shoot ourselves in our foot.

00:17:48 Erin: Yeah, absolutely.

00:17:49 Cinnamon: So a better approach, just listen. Take the perspective of an objective outside observer. Just listen, no fixing, no reaction, no making it about you. Even your desire to help them and fix it, it's still about your desire, right? So let them decide how they're gonna drive their bus because they're the ones with the bus because that's where the problem is riding.

00:18:17 Cinnamon: So try saying something along the lines of like, I appreciate you telling me. Do you wanna talk more about it? Instead of, why didn't you just say something earlier? Like, do we really even, I don't know, I feel like that's one of those questions that we ask. I'm like, okay, we don't want an answer to that. Because if you tell me the truth, now I'm gonna just argue with you about it.

00:18:40 Erin: Yep. All these little tiny shifts that we're talking about right here, and neither one of us are exempt from these kind of reactions, but they can make a huge difference. And believe it or not, there have been times in my life where I've been able to do some of these few things where respond with some emotional intelligence. But it all helps keep the focus exactly where it belongs, which is on what they're actually going through, not in our discomfort with how they handled it or didn't handle it.

00:19:12 Cinnamon: And I feel like there is a little bit, like let's give ourselves some grace. We are organically going to move into self-centeredness. Especially if we are feeling like we have upset someone, then we are going to feel like we need to fix it. But ultimately it is actually much easier to keep that objective role because then I don't have to create a defense argument. I don't have to defend my behavior. I don't have to come up with why it shouldn't have offended them, especially if it hasn't.

00:19:44 Cinnamon: You know, all of those things, but here's the hard truth, you don't have to be involved in someone else's process to support them. You don't have to interject yourself and start tossing out solutions or translations. Sometimes the best way to be there for someone is to give them the space that they need whether that's physical or emotional.

00:20:04 Erin: Absolutely. Yeah, and then trust that when they're ready, they'll talk if it makes sense for them to talk. But when they do, don't punish them for how long it took. Seven days. I'm like-

00:20:19 Cinnamon: Well, also don't assume that just because they didn't talk to you right away, that they don't trust you. It's just some things are personal.

00:20:28 Erin: Yep. It's not about you. It's about them figuring it out, which can help everybody in the long run once they do figure it out. And if you can remind yourself of that, you'll avoid a whole lot of unnecessary fights down the road.

00:20:42 Cinnamon: Let's just get a little dreamy for a second. Wouldn't that be so amazing if the people in our lives could be experiencing some distress and we're like, hey, what's going on? And they're like, yeah, so here's what happened and I'm recognizing that I'm upset about it and I'm in the middle of figuring out why. We're like, oh, good work. Yeah, if you need anything, I'll be over here. It doesn't have to be anything more than that.

00:21:14 Erin: Yeah. It would be beautiful. So here's the takeaway for today. Not everything is about you. If someone you care about needs space to process, please just respect it. Honestly, I'm talking to myself. Like in a lot of ways. So thank you for letting me work this out on the episode today. But when they do open up, just listen and don't react. Don't take it personally. Don't make it about how hard their silence was for you. Don't do any of that.

00:21:45 Cinnamon: Or how you need to defend what you did in or get into it about why, if they're upset about something else, then why are they treating you the way that you're perceiving they're treating you simply because they might be a little quiet or be a little frowny. Giving them space doesn't mean that you don't care. It means that you respect them enough to work through their own process. So don't think that you're giving them space as a sign of neglect or disregard.

00:22:20 Erin: Yeah. In fact, they probably appreciate it. They probably feel loved in a lot of ways. So listeners, here's your challenge for this week. The next time someone you care about is upset, but doesn't wanna talk right away, resist that urge to push. Let them come to you. Don't do it. Whenever they're ready, they'll come. And if they don't, it means it wasn't for you. So just let it roll off your back and be open to listening when they do come to you and not reacting.

00:22:57 Cinnamon: And if you're the one who needs space, because we're talking about it in one context, but the roles can be certainly reversed, it's okay to say instead of nothing, to just simply say, I'm not ready to talk about it yet, but I will when I can. And that sets the boundary so the other person, one, knows that it's not about them and that in saying nothing, you're not being dishonest when maybe both of you know that something is going on. Right? Like it's literally acknowledging, yes, there is something bothering me. It is not nothing, but I'm not ready to talk about it.

00:23:37 Cinnamon: It's a more truthful, like a truthier truth answer. And that also builds trust in the relationship. If I can tell you that and you can react well to it, you better believe I'm gonna be more inclined to be open to acknowledging when something is upsetting me if you're not gonna get your nose up in it.

00:23:56 Erin: Right. Oh, humaning is hard. But I want to also reiterate, read the book, The Four Agreements. It is such a great tool to life and how to human out there in this world and how to teach us how to not take things personally because it is hard. It is, but there's so much freedom on the other side of not taking things personally. And we all deserve that freedom in our lives.

00:24:25 Cinnamon: It leaves us more time to craft. It was getting a little too serious, so I thought, I mean, look at all the extra time I have to crochet.

00:24:38 Erin: All this room for activities.

00:24:41 Cinnamon: Right. Look at all the space.

00:24:42 Erin: All right, friends. We'll see you next week.

00:24:44 Cinnamon: We will see you next time.

00:24:46 Erin: Good luck.

00:24:46 Cinnamon: And remember, not everything is about you.

00:24:50 Erin: Yes, it is.

00:24:57 Erin: Thanks for tuning in to today's episode of After the Tones Drop. We've been bringing you some real mental health insights, and we'd love to hear what you think. If you're enjoying this show, take a minute and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. And don't forget, share this podcast with someone who might benefit from it.

00:25:14 Erin: A big thank you to Whole House Counseling and Novus Home Mortgage for sponsoring today's episode. And a special shout out to Rob Maccabee for writing and producing our show's music.

00:25:25 Erin: Just a quick reminder, After the Tones Drop is here for informational purposes only. It is not a substitute for medical or psychological advice. If you're in need of help, please reach out to a mental health professional in your area. For more resources, head over to afterthetonesdrop.com and check out our resources tab. We really appreciate you being a part of this community. Thanks for listening and sharing.