A Warriors Return: With Larry Turner

EP47: A Warriors Return

00:00:00 Larry: My idea of who I thought I was is a broken down warrior that has no value to the world. If I sought help, that's really going to limit my career. I'm reading about Save A Warrior. Oh, they have the solution for the veteran first responder suicide epidemic. So I called. I said, I just want to give you some money. If you have the solution, he goes, are you suicidal? And I said, no, I completely understand how somebody could get in that position. So just going to give you some money. 

00:00:30 Larry: And he goes, what have you done to deal with your own PTS? It starts dawning on me. I'm at this PTS thing for veterans and first responders. Are you kidding me? I wanted to be the guy that poked holes in all of their wisdom and all of their logic. I'm not gonna give away any spoilers, but Save A Warrior is filled with distilled wisdom from 27 different disciplines, science, medicine, neurology, psychology, spirituality. If you're honest, open and willing and lean into the conversation, things are going to click.

00:01:09 Cinnamon: It's the first responder, the first to get the call, the first on scene, greeted by God knows what, pushed beyond the limits that they don't even set. Then what happens? You're listening to After the Tones Drop. We're your hosts. I'm Cinnamon, a first responder trauma therapist. 

00:01:30 Erin: And I'm Erin. I'm a first responder integration coach. 

00:01:35 Cinnamon: Our show brings you stories from real first responders, the tools they've learned, the changes they've made, and the lives they now get to live.

00:01:53 Erin: Quick heads up before we start. We want to acknowledge that some of the content we discuss on our show can be triggering for some listeners. Some of our episodes may touch upon themes like traumatic experiences, PTSD, suicide, and line of duty deaths. We understand that these topics are sensitive and might evoke difficult emotions. If you are currently struggling with your mental health or have experienced traumatic events recently, listen with caution. You may consider taking periodic breaks or skipping the episode altogether. We want to thank you for joining us today. Your dedication to serving our community is inspiring, and we're here to support you in any way that we can. Now, if you're ready to proceed, let's begin.

00:02:38 Cinnamon: Today we have with us, Larry Turner. Larry was somebody that I wanted to ask to come on to the podcast because my introduction to Larry was a little bit unique. He happened to be at a conference that I attended in 2018. He was not on the speaker list and I think there was some kind of cancellation and Larry volunteered as tribute. And listening to him, I remember standing in the back of the room and having tears come to my eyes and I'm like, who the hell is this guy? And why a little while into this work is he affecting me like this? 

00:03:15 Cinnamon: So when the conference ended, I had planned on going to visit my parents. And on the way home, I took an hour out of the way to go visit Larry at the Killbuck Creek Distillery, because I was just so enamored with his story. And of course, after he spoke that day, there were so many people that wanted to talk to him. I was like, I can wait. 

00:03:37 Erin: I can stalk him instead. 

00:03:38 Cinnamon: But I can stalk him instead. I can just show up at his house, right? And just, like knock and look in the glass and be like, remember me? But yeah, so Larry was actually pulled to talk about Save A Warrior, which we've talked about a few times, on here and our clients definitely know what it is. But Larry started his first responder career all the way in 1995 when he was an armor crewman in the 173rd armor battalion from the ‘85 to ‘97. And then he joined the city of Columbus police department. And then in 2016, he came to own the Killbuck Creek distillery, which has a couple meanings for him. But also, it is right down the road from where my parents live, which was kind of cool.

00:04:28 Cinnamon: And most recently, he is a published author with his book that came out last year, Franco The Succulent. And so we're just really glad, one, to have you and to be able to share with the rest of the world what Save A Warrior I saw is doing. And two, this is a little bit of, like my fangirl moment where I'm holding you captive for a little bit to hear you talk. Now I don't have to come to the distillery anymore. 

00:04:56 Larry: Well, thank you, Cinnamon. The distillery. And I still own a part of that. It's still there. It's not really doing a whole lot, but I still own a little section of it. And we're hoping to have the bourbon bottle very soon. 

00:05:13 Erin: But you didn't come upon the distillery just because you liked bourbon. That wasn't the only reason, right? There was a backstory behind why that was important to you. Wasn't there? 

00:05:24 Larry: There was. I don't want to talk about a lot of the stuff that I did when I was on the department, a lot of it was undercover stuff like that. And I'm just into war stories. As I said earlier, those who know don't talk. Those who talk don't know. But towards the end of my career on the department, suicide, I didn't want to admit it, I would never admit it to anybody. It was in my mind all day, every day. And it had always been that way. I didn't understand that. It would just pop up in thoughts. And I just thought, yo, maybe everybody does that, but I wouldn't know cause I couldn't talk to anybody about it.

00:06:12 Larry: I would never go get help for anything like that. Because if I saw help for depression, anxiety, suicidal ideation, then that's going to show up in my police record and that's really going to limit my career, things I can do on the department. People will be looking at me sideways. So I kind of just struggled and suffered alone mentally in a very dark place. And then towards the end of the career, the physical injuries from all the things I was doing were racking up. There's no way I could probably continue with the job I was doing on the department. 

00:06:58 Larry: My idea of myself, who I thought I was, is a broken down warrior that has no value to the world. That's who I thought I was. And then a close buddy of mine got murdered, Steve Smith. He was murdered April 12th of 2016. And some of the things from that scene, some of the things from that whole incident, I just fell apart mentally. You know, I had done maybe 500 dynamic entries with Steve in my career. And at one point, somebody came up to me with the Black Rain commemorative rifle and asked that I would tour around selling these raffle tickets to raise money for Steve's widow and kids. 

00:07:49 Larry: And at first, when it was presented to me, I turned it down. I didn't want anything to do with that and they said, why? And I said, well, he's a hero. I'm not worthy to even touch that thing. I'm a loser in my mind. I'm a complete loser. I'm a washout. I'm not worthy to touch that and I drove away and I remember she is, I drove away. The thought inside my head was, Hey buddy, if your name was on that rifle, Steve would have picked it up. I'm like, damn, that is true. So I went back and told them to give me the rifle and then that's what I did for the end of my career. 

00:08:31 Larry: What I wasn't aware of was talking about that incident over and over and over and over hundreds of times a day. The depression that was in my head by living in that story, I just went completely insane, completely insane. Sometimes breaking down, I never cried. Never would you see tears fall onto here. I found myself crying uncontrollably and then thinking I'm completely insane because I've lost control of my emotions. I thought I'm supposed to control all these feelings and emotions and never show any sense of humanity to the world. I'm the warrior. And man, I was breaking apart and really completely, I was insane by my own judgment call. 

00:09:27 Larry: I was on shift for duty because like the thoughts of suicide getting larger and larger, I could not control them. And so, but I was also moonshining. I was doing quite a bit of moonshining. That's something the chief didn't know about us making a liquor. And I wanted to make the finest liquor. And I was, somebody had gotten some of my liquor and came up with this idea of, hey, you want to make a distillery. And I said, I'll make a distillery if we can make a bourbon in honor of Steve Smith. 

00:09:58 Larry: And my mentality, my thoughts were because when that raffle with the rifle ended, like that was the only thing that was keeping me from committing suicide was touring with the rifle itself. And it's hard to articulate this, but I put so much significance in Steve and this rifle and what it meant that I thought if I commit suicide while I'm touring with this rifle, then anytime somebody thinks of Steve, they're going to say, oh, and that's when Larry broke apart and committed suicide. And I didn't want to tarnish his memory in your mind. So touring with the rifle was the only thing that prevented suicide. 

00:10:45 Larry: And so when that tour ended and they selected the winner for the rifle, I panicked. I'm like, there's nothing left on the option table for me but suicide now. So when this guy came up to me with the idea of the distillery, instantly I'm like, I can continue the mission. Can I make a bourbon in honor of Steve Smith? And he's like, yeah, sure. I'm like, good, all in, I'm all in. And so then I thought I could put suicide off a little bit. And now I'm still on this mission until the distillery just really started breaking down a little bit. And I don't want to go into all the story of that. 

00:11:30 Larry: But yeah, it was evident that the distillery is going to fail. And boy, that feeling of failure, like I put so much significance in the 1386 Bourbon and in [inaudible] that's in. And now I'm going to fail at that mission. How much shame? I can't take any more shame. I can't take any more embarrassment. And I really started constructing a plan that I'm done. I am done. And it was a miracle that Save A Warrior came through that distillery. And I tell people sometimes that they tricked me into being there, which is a valid story. It's very valid.

00:12:13 Larry: Another way to articulate that is some people that loved me, wanted to make sure I got access to this wisdom. And so, and it was really miraculous how the whole thing happened because I'm sitting at the bar at the distillery and I'm reading the Newark Advocate and there's a story about Save A Warrior in there. I'm not a fan of… I've never lived in Newark. I don't even know how that newspaper ended up at the distillery. But I'm like a couple pages into it, I'm reading about Save A Warrior. Oh, they have the solution for the veteran first responder suicide epidemic. 

00:12:50 Larry: And so I called, who did I call? Pat Atkinson. He was the treasurer at the time. I didn't think Jake Clark would answer the phone. So I did a little research on the organization. I'm like, I'll just call their accountant and tell him I want to give them some money. And so I called Pat Atkinson up and I said, I own this distillery. I just want to give you some money. If you have the solutions for the suicide epidemic, I just want to give you some money. And he goes, are you suicidal? And I said, no, no, I just understand. I completely understand how somebody could get in that position. So I'm just going to give you some money. 

00:13:32 Larry: And I was currently giving away everything I owned. I was just, big red flag. I'm giving away all my personal sex, changing my will. Anybody that knows anything about suicidality would have looked at all these red flags and said, this guy. But I didn't want to admit it. I didn't want to admit it even to Pat. 

00:13:54 Cinnamon: Larry, that's what I was going to ask you. Here, you're making this phone call to make a donation. And of all people in the organization, the treasure, right, the money person, comes right out of the gate with, are you suicidal? I mean, but that is one of the most difficult things that our peers and even clinicians are really trained around is how to approach that issue of suicide. So that's pretty powerful for Pat to do that in that phone call. But also, I'm kind of wondering how that may not have been the question that you were anticipating, more like, do you need our address? So how did that land with you? And that was that first question.

00:14:30 Larry: Well, he said that I wasn't allowed to send them any money until he toured the distillery. And when he said that, I thought, okay, he just wants to see a cool distillery. He wants to get away from work for the day and this will make a good field trip. So here's my address. You should hurry up and get down here. And so he came the next day. I think it was the next day. And now the distillery, people have been sending in stuff from all over the world, like flags and challenge coins and patches. And it turned into, like, a little museum. So when he came, I thought, well, I'm going to impress him with all the memorabilia I have all over the place. And I'm giving him a tour and I'm showing him some stuff, telling him it's significance of this flag or whatever. And she goes, what have you done to deal with your own PTS? I'm like–

00:15:29 Erin: What PTS? I don't know what you're talking about.

00:15:31 Larry: Right. So I said, boy, he didn't even ask me if I thought I had it. He just asked me, what am I doing about it? And I said, nothing. And he said, you don't self-medicate. Do I self-medicate? Is that some fancy ass way to ask me if I drink? I own the distillery. I built it. I'm fine. I don't have a problem with that. And he said, well, you haven't gone to go see any doctors or clinicians? And I said, no, no, no, no. He goes, why not? And I said, well, I'm not allowed to. He goes, what's that mean you're not allowed to? I said, well, I don't have any insurance. I don't have any money for any stuff like that. 

00:16:11 Larry: And I said, the last time I went to go buy a gun, that was one of the questions on the list that, have you been diagnosed with PTSD? I assume you stick me in front of a doctor. It's kind of a no brainer. I have this PTS and I don't know how you've lived your life. I've got real life, big time bad guys love to find me sitting here without a gun. So you hang on to all your doctors and I'll hang on to my guns. And he said, fair enough. Well, if you come to save a warrior, you're not going to get a PTSD diagnosis. And I said, what the hell are you talking about? Why are you here? Why are you standing in my distillery right now? 

00:16:53 Larry: You're here because I want to give you some money. So how about I just write you a check and you'd be on your way. And he said, this is how crazy it was. He goes, you're not allowed to give us money until you fill out an application. And I said, how is that? And he goes, we have to vet all the people that are all of our donors. I'm like, that makes no sense. He goes, sure. Just get on our website. He pulled up my computer. There's the application and it's going to ask you some funny questions. Just get through it and then you'll be able to send us money. And so I filled it out, hit a button, submit. He goes, you're going to get in a phone call and then you can send us money. 

00:17:36 Larry: I'm like, weird, totally weird. Well, I get a call from Brian Hagerty, who was the fellow that had my job before me and he's, we had a conversation and he offered me a seat in Cohort 058 and like, I don't know if I'm here. I'm not going to that. I just wanted to send you money. I'm not going to that. But–

00:17:57 Cinnamon: It's like, take my damn money and quit making me jump through all these hoops. Why are there hoops to [donate]? 

00:18:03 Larry: Right. So I wasn't going to go. My wife and my kids both knew that I had this cohort date and they're like, dad, you're going to go to this cohort, right? I'm like, no, I'm busy. I'm a busy man. And my wife was like, you're going to go to the Save A Warrior thing, right? Like, hey, I'm the only one that actually works at the distillery. What do you want me to do? Shut this place down, so I can go out in the woods and sing Kumbaya with a bunch of dudes. I don't have time for that. So what my wife, Sue, God bless her, what she did, she took vacation from her work on the week of the cohort and then came up to me and said, well, I took vacation during these dates.

00:18:43 Larry: So you haven't had vacation in years. You're free to go do whatever you want. If you want to go sing Kumbaya in the woods, go do that. Or if you just want to sit at home and drink and watch TV, you got to week to yourself. And I thought, that's right, I haven't had a vacation and I don't remember, maybe I'll go. And I showed up to the cohort, not knowing what it was, and I about wrecked the place, because I was, in my head, I, man, I don't think I was mentally prepared to go through it.

00:19:20 Erin: Is anybody mentally prepared to go through it? Really? I mean, when you don't really know, and you've been up against all this stuff and you're kind of bred to not trust. It's like, I imagine a lot of people feel that way when they get in there, but you were like, I got backed into this. So that was probably another part of it. 

00:19:40 Larry: Well, there's a bunch of stories with that. And I mean, that's basically it, how I ended up getting into Save A Warrior. But the thing that… and I was an asshole. I mean, I showed up, I was a complete asshole. I'm argumentative. And I wanted to be the guy that poked holes in all of their wisdom and all of their logic. But what got me really was that Adam Carr in the beginning, he really, thank God, the whole thing's a miracle. Thank God Adam Carr was there calling me out on it and saying the exact words that he said, because it starts dawning on me that, oh, I'm at this PTS thing for veterans and first responders. Are you shitting me? This is where I'm at. 

00:20:28 Larry: And I come in and I'm really my way of being, there's a big spoiler, way of being who I think I am and my role in the world is on full display. And what I like to do is I dominate to avoid being dominated and I'm kind of lazy. So I like to intimidate people. And if I can intimidate you and I see it in your eyes, I don't really have to dominate you anymore. And that's what I was doing. As soon as I walked into the cohort, I'm looking around the room for all the Navy SEAL dudes, where's your SWAT guys? Where do you see me? And Adam Carr, God bless him. He stopped me. He goes, Whoa, you right there. Stop. And I said, what? He said, are you honest, open and willing? I'm like, of course I am. 

00:21:16 Larry: Everybody likes to think they are. He goes, no, honest, I'm going to stick to the truth. Even when I don't like what the truth has to say, I'm going to stick to the truth anyway, cause it's the truth. Do you have it like that? And I was like, damn, that kind of insinuates. You're going to start telling me some stuff I don't want to hear, but I reckon I'll stick to the truth. And he said, good. Now, are you open to the idea, the reason why your life is appearing the way it does to you right now is 100% your responsibility? You're not blaming all your problems on other people. Like, damn. 

00:21:48 Larry: I thought about it and I said, well, there's some folks out there that owe me a pound of flesh, but I'm going to own what's mine. And he said, sure enough. And if you're not enjoying your life, are you coachable? Are you willing to consider a new way of doing things? I'm like, I don't know. You know, [set] in my ways, but I'll sit and listen. He said, all right, have a seat. We're gonna start a conversation. And then he said, you can stop me from talking the moment I say something that you know for certain is a lie. And I was like, deal. Because I was a big asshole and I wanted to be that guy. Just poke. 

00:22:24 Larry: And I leaned into the conversation. And let me tell you that, thank God. Thank God everything happened the way it did. Because that is the conversation that saved my life. The conversation that I then engaged in, cracked through all the denial, cracked through all the illusion that I was doing all right, that I'm trying to present to the world, that just vaporized. And I would not be here. I would not be here talking to you both right now, had I not had that conversation. Because I had it in my head, I'm just gonna go do this, then I'm gonna go home and blow myself up in a kayak or something, whatever my plan was. 

00:23:08 Cinnamon: Listening to this story, I'm like, at what point did you figure out that the universe was conspiring to save your life? Like, I mean, the way that the newspaper was at the bar for no reason, your wife taking that time off, Atkinson asking these questions, you wanting to donate like, this was exactly what was supposed to happen. I mean, I'm listening to your story for a couple minutes and I'm realizing it. So when did you realize this whole process was happening for you? 

00:23:43 Larry: That, what you're asking, that happened almost at the beginning of the cohort because, you know, I sit down, I'm gonna start the conversation and Jake or Adam, somebody said, the seat you're sitting in cost $5,000 to sit in that seat. And I immediately got up to leave. And they said, where are you going? And I said, well, I ain't got five grand and I ain't got any insurance and I'm not looking to accrue any new bills, so I'm just gonna leave now. And they said, sit down, your seat's already paid for. And I kinda, this was all happening in a classroom in OSU and I was looking around. I turn around, I'm looking around the classroom and she goes, what are you looking for? And I said, I ain't worth $5,000 to anybody. So I want to know who paid for my seat. 

00:24:37 Larry: And they said, somebody that loves you, just know somebody that loves you paid for your seat. I'm starting to tear up. And so I sat down, my thinking was, if somebody paid $5,000 for me to sit here and hear this conversation, the least thing I could do is listen to hear what they have to say. And so I paid very close attention to every single thing that was said from that moment on, still acting like an asshole, that's what I do. That's my way of being. 

00:25:11 Erin: And it's a protection mechanism. 

00:25:13 Larry: Yeah. 

00:25:13 Erin: You know, yeah. 

00:25:15 Larry: But the amount of wisdom, because that's what Save A Warrior is, I'm not going to give away any spoilers, but it is a very, very, very powerful conversation filled with distilled wisdom from 27 different disciplines, science, medicine, neurology, psychology, spirituality. That is, if you're honest, open and willing and lean into the conversation, things are going to click. And so I was paying attention to everything, but I still had this idea of Larry Turner, so whatever I think I am, I ended up, they were kicking me out. It was on a ropes course and they were going to kick me out of the program. Cause I was acting like that big of an asshole. 

00:25:58 Larry: What had happened was I suffered an injury on the ropes course, which we don't do the ropes course anymore, but I… my arm kind of popped out of the socket during the ropes course and medic, there put it back in and all that. But Jay Clark and Adam Carr pulled me over to the side, put me in a tent. And as I'm walking to the tent, I'm thinking, well, here it is. This is where I get kicked out of the program and I deserve it. I deserve it. I was that big of an asshole. I win. And they sent me down and Jake Clark, I started out telling him, look, I'm not going to sue you guys. I should never have been on that ropes course. But I recently had my arm reattached and I should not have been on the ropes course. That's my bad.

00:26:45 Larry: And Jay Clark goes, what, tell me about the arm. What happened to the arm? And I told them, well, I'm the breacher on a dynamic entry team. And I start going into the story about a hotel and I had to ram open, I don't know, 30 doors and this one entry in my arm, Jay, he goes story, story story. And the hell I'm answering your question. And Jake just really confronted me on that story. And I'm defending myself. So we're kind of going head to head. Meanwhile, Adam Carr is, like whispering to me, he's sitting right there, but he's whispering to me almost in a side conversation. He goes, Hey, Larry, what do you think about those guys in your cohort over there? And I'm like, what? And I look over, I'm like, they're very suicidal. Yeah, for sure. 

00:27:38 Larry: He's like, Oh yeah, they are. Uh-huh. He goes, how'd you like to help people like that? I'm like, I don't know how to help those people. He goes, 'Well, it's very easy. All you have to do is fix yourself. Then you can come back and you can help guys like that. And I said, 'Well, I don't know how to fix myself. And he said, Oh, well, that's easy. All you have to do is accept the possibility that what we have told you this entire program is the truth. I’m like, I don't have to accept it as the truth. I just, the possibility of it being the truth. He goes, yeah, however you need to put that in your head, just the possibility that it's the truth. 

00:28:26 Larry: And it was really the first time I actually looked inward at myself, at my own, just the way he said it presented it and an idea that I didn't have to hang on to it, I could just look at it and give it back to you. And when I examined my own spirit, essentially, I suddenly had what I referred to as a spiritual awakening of the educational variety. And I'm going to ask you a question, and then you go look for the answer. And at some point, a light bulb goes off, that the place that I'm getting the answer is what people are referring to as their spirit. And mine's desperately wounded. In fact that's why Jake Clark's yelling at me right now, because he loves me and that's passion. That's not anger. 

00:29:16 Larry: Like suddenly in an instant, everything clicked and I felt love. You know, I'm like, oh. And Adam Carr goes, what? I'm like, ow. It's a warm glittery feeling inside. What the hell is that? And he goes, well, that's called love, Larry. You might not have remembered ever feeling that before. And I'm like, nah, I remember it. I remember something like that. How do I get more of that? And I just, what Jake Clark said, he said that just start making your bed when you wake up in the morning, player. And then he got up and left. You know, I said, I think I said, you could stop yelling or arguing with, I get it now, I get it. He's like, well, thank God.

00:30:09 Larry: So I made a vow at that point, I'll do whatever, Save A Warrior cause I think at that moment I looked at Adam Carr too, and I said, Oh, I'm like Lazarus in the Bible. And he goes, what's that mean? I'm like, I'm alive now for the very first time in my life. And that's what you guys are doing here. You're giving away life. And well, this is way better than what I was doing at the distillery. I just want to be a part of this. If you're giving out life and I'll do whatever you guys tell me to do. I'm coming back to do the dishes. And that's kind of where I started. It was so powerful and life transformative. I mean, everything I saw about the universe just completely changed because now I have the perspective of my own spirit. And that changed everything. And I thought, well, I might've missed some of the wisdom. I might've missed something. So I got to get back there and share this whole conversation again. 

00:31:08 Larry: And so I started coming back to Warrior Village randomly. Like anytime they had a cohort, I'd show up just to do the dishes. That was my excuse. They're like, what are you doing here? I'm like, don't you have dirty dishes? They're like, yeah, trying to do them. And I started dishwashing. And then they… eventually, they asked me to come back and shepherd a cohort, which was incredible. 

00:31:33 Cinnamon: What does shepherding mean, Larry?

00:31:35 Larry: It just means I'm there and I've been through the program. I kind of know what's going to happen. And really I'm there to do the dishes and take out the trash and whatever you guys need, I'm going to do it. And just really helping the people that are presenting the program. And so I'm there as, like a little assistant and I was there as a little assistant for war, I have no idea. 30 cohorts in a row and I'm just getting all this wisdom, constantly absorbing it, watching people, other people transform. The same thing that I just described that I went through. I'm watching it happen to other people. To me, it's like a miracle. Like, this person comes in, they're very angry, depressed. And at some point they get one of my favorite words and epiphany, which is a moment of discovery. And I tell them it's a one way door, brother. There ain't no going back.

00:32:30 Larry: In fact, what did I write the other day on social media? There's undiscover is not a word because you can't undiscover something. So once you discover something, that's it, everything changes. You can see it happening in the people's eyes. They come in completely despondent, suicidal, depressed in a very short time, like we got it down to 72 hours now in a very short time, somewhere in this conversation, if you are actually honest, open and willing, boom, there's life right there. And you can see the transformation. So I just kept wanting to come back to just assist in any way possible. If this is what you guys are doing, you saved my life. I know that beyond a shadow of a doubt. And now I'm watching that same thing happen in other people's eyes.

00:33:21 Larry: And so at one point after shepherding a lot, they asked me if I wanted to maybe process some of the applications that were coming in. They're like, you just have a phone conversation when they apply to come here, you're going to have a conversation with them and see about getting them into a seat. And I didn't think I was worthy of doing that. I thought, you know, are you sure I'm ready to do something like that? But I tell you what, I've been doing it for about three, maybe four years now. I don't know when I got hired here, but everyday, it's a miracle. It's a blessing just to be that guy. 

00:34:01 Larry: I was telling somebody the other day and it's like my entire life, that entire dark road of what I call tragedy. Well, it's not a tragedy. It's not. It was all just to prepare me to come here and have this one conversation with you when you're showing suicidal and you want to come to Save A Warrior, my entire life prepared me to have this one little conversation with you and maybe unlock your world for you. I don't know. Every day is really a blessing because I get applications all the time and I feel active in the community and it's just a blessing, anyway. 

00:34:40 Erin: Man, you're speaking our language though, because we are constantly looking at the things that have happened in our life and say, God, if that didn't happen, none of this would be here. And what a gift. And I feel like I have a very– 

00:34:53 Cinnamon: We do not regret the past. 

00:34:54 Erin: Right. And I feel like I have a very blessed gift where I'm pretty quickly able to see the light in some of the dark spots that happen in life where I'm like, oh, that happened because of this. You know, if I got 24 hour turnaround and I start seeing the beauty of all these things, even though it's painful, that doesn't mean it has to be the thing that takes me out. I can choose to look at, wow, this happened for this to happen, for this to happen. And the thing that stood out to me was, you said, I didn't think I was worthy. 

00:35:24 Larry: Right.

00:35:24 Erin: To essentially be, hold the space for these people. Like there's no one more worthy than someone that has gone through it and can say, look, this is what's possible. And I think that it's so easy because we, as human beings, get in our story of the crap we've done or all of the, just the shit, you know, that we can forget how far we came and that it is because we said yes, even if it was kicking and screaming, that we can show other people that they can say yes too. And what I heard you say was basically like, I let go of this need to be right to get my life back and learn something new.

00:36:08 Erin: Hey there, listener. If you could ask any question or freely talk about any challenge related to being on the job and no one would know, what would you say? We are excited to share about our confidential hotline that we created just for you. Through this confidential hotline, you can leave a message sharing a success, a struggle, or simply ask a question. We will spotlight calls and offer feedback and insight from a licensed therapist and a certified coach who work exclusively with first responders. You can access our hotline voicemail by visiting AfterTheTonesDrop.com and clicking the voicemail tab. Additionally, you can join our mailing list if you'd like or easily follow us on Facebook and Instagram for all the most recent updates. You know the drill. Telephone, tell a friend, tell a first responder.

00:37:11 Larry: Yeah, that feeling of low self-worth, I've had that my entire life. But my entire life, the first time I really maybe tried suicide, I didn't get too far with it, I was 12. And that was just from a rough, very rough go at life. And I never got any counseling for that. I just like, okay, now it's Tuesday. I did that yesterday. Today's Tuesday. That was the amount of counseling I got. And so I always had it in my head that I am worth less than dirt. That's always been my perspective due to some of the experiences I had when I was a little kid. That's how I viewed life from, that I'm an idiot kid that isn't worth dirt. And so I always had this imposter syndrome no matter what I was doing. Like I get into the army and they give me a tank, you know?

00:38:09 Larry: At some point it dawns on me that I'm 18 years old and I'm actually driving this tank around. I think at some point they're going to figure out that they gave the tank to the wrong guy. I should not be driving. I do not want to give Larry Turner a tank, but it was a lot of fun. The whole time on the police department, like I said, when I showed up to take the test to get onto the police department, there's 6,000 people there. Some of them are in police uniforms and I'm thinking, well, they got to know all the answers on the test. I don't have a chance of ever getting on the department, but then they offer me the job. And I think, at some point they're going to figure out, I'm just bullshitting my way through this whole thing. 

00:38:52 Larry: And on the entry teams, like I get on a dynamic entry team at one point, I think the whole team's going to figure out at some point that I'm not the dynamic entry dude you're looking for, but I just, I have this personal sense. I'm not worth anything. I have no value, which added to the whole suicidality of my thinking. ‘Cause I have no value. I have no proof. I have no, I'm not worth anything. And so I, you know, even though I had like a life transformative event happen during my cohort where I'm now digging my own way out of insanity and I'm recovering. Rome wasn't built in a day. I was 50 years old when I came through Save A Warrior and it took 50 years of dysfunctional thinking to create this life that I had. It was going to take a little bit of work to climb out of it. 

00:39:50 Larry: But what do I tell people? I follow the other warriors on this path before me as long as you have something that I want. And when I say you have something that I want, I mean, I'm looking at you and it's radiating out of you. You have sanity, sobriety, confidence, peace, joy. I don't even remember what joy is. I had joy as an absence of pain. I thought that's what joy was. That's not what joy is. Joy is something completely different. But I just… I do whatever Save A Warrior tells me to do. And it was kind of odd, you know, first thing they said, hey Larry, we need you to go through this Twelve-Step program. And I'm looking at it, I'm like, well, big problem here. I'm not an alcoholic. And you want me to go through a Twelve-Step. 

00:40:37 Larry: And he goes, I didn't ask you if you're an alcoholic. I just asked you to go through the Twelve-Step program. I'm like, [too shy]. All right, so I'll do that. And then there was another Twelve-Step program. Then here's the meditation. Hey, read this book. Hey, do this. And I tell you what, before I knew it, without paying attention, I really, really, really loved being Larry Turner these days. I would trade places with anybody on the planet. I mean, I really feel blessed that somebody that I got it and not a whole lot of people get it. So I feel fortunate. I feel blessed. I'm just humbled and honored that I get to play a little part in offering this sort of healing, this sort of recovery to other people that I understand so well. Really, I do. 

00:41:26 Larry: And it's just a blessing to be a part of the whole organization, humbled blessing because I still hang on to a little bit of that. Maybe I'm that. I just like it because it keeps me humbled. It does keep me humble. 

00:41:41 Erin: Yeah.

00:41:41 Cinnamon: I wrote it down because I started to notice that in all of these situations, it was coming up and it offset that the worthiness or the lack of worthiness that you're experiencing is investment. There were so many people that were invested in, whether it was getting you there, whether it was having that seat paid for, and whether it was the time that Jake took, Adam took to talk to you. We don't use that kind of energy for unworthy ventures. There's so much investment that I see in Save A Warrior. And we know that what you felt as far as, like being unworthy, you know, that piece of shit kind of mentality for who you were, what you did, whatever it was, like that is a common factor that we see. 

00:42:36 Cinnamon: So I think it's so powerful to know that you can come into something like Save A Warrior and there are people that are financially supporting that effort. So you can say to someone, someone loves you so much that they paid $5,000 to make sure that you got well 

because we need you. We don't even have to know you to need you. 

00:42:59 Larry: Cinnamon, that was the first crack in the armor right there at the beginning when I realized, wait, somebody else paid that amount of money for me to sit here. Like I didn't understand love. I didn't have the concept of love. You know, I'm used to a world of transactions. I'm gonna dominate to avoid being dominated and everything's a transaction. And nobody cares enough about me to give up five grand. And when I realized that somebody did, confusion, I think at one point I said, when he said somebody paid for my seat, I said, I think you got the wrong Larry Turner. And he's like, no, we got the right Larry Turner. I'm like, you sure? Sure that it meant to pay five grand for somebody else? And so I had to like, just marinate on that for a few days, you know, like, I don't understand love. I don't understand it at all. When I first felt it, oh my God, it was like it went through my whole body just like–  

00:44:12 Cinnamon: Warm, glittery feeling.

00:44:14 Larry: Warm and glittery. Yes. 

00:44:16 Cinnamon: Just that, I don't know, I'm a little stuck on the unworthiness and then getting to see all of these people investing in your healing. And, you know, Erin and I are firm believers that there are no accidents, right? And you had mentioned part of your journey that was asked of you was to attend this Twelve-Step program. So for someone who doesn't identify as an alcoholic, you know, Erin and I frequently have been known to say, I wish everybody could just use the Twelve-Step program regardless of if they have an issue or not, because it is the book of how to live life that we always complain we don't get. So what did the Twelve Step program do for you as someone who didn't identify as an alcoholic? 

00:45:05 Larry: That's a wonderful question, Cinnamon. I see. And the one thing the guidance that Jake gave me with that was, gee, you know, if it's not alcohol just replace the word alcohol with something you're struggling with. And what going through the Twelve Step program, the first time and really every single time I've been through. See, I had a Twelve Step program, you're trying to take something away from me. That's how I had it. I've always had it that way. That's not what it's about at all. I know that now having been through. In fact, AA Twelve Steps, its focus is very little on alcohol. It really doesn't have much to do with alcohol at all. 

00:45:46 Larry: So going through it the first time, what it did, it shifted my thinking. And that's very important because, and I was just explaining this to somebody else, if you asked me before Save A Warrior, hey, Larry, what do you think of life? I would say, I think life sucks. And if you asked me why, I would point my finger at a dozen people and organizations. That person owes me a pound of flesh. That person shot at me. That organization fucked me over and I'm just pointing my finger at all the things in people and organizations that I think screwed me over somehow or owed me something. 

00:46:31 Larry: The Twelve Step, kind of like while I'm pointing my finger at other people, it bends the elbow at myself and what's your responsibility? Because really, and that's the serenity prayer, you know, God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, which is all these people that I think owe me something, the courage to change the things I can, me, my side of the road, and the wisdom to know the difference. And when I actually get that, 90% of the things that I'm worried about in life, I can just scrape off the plate. Just I don't need to worry about that. That's beyond my control. That's not my control. That's not mine. 

00:47:14 Larry: I learned to forgive. I learned the power of forgiveness and letting go of resentments, learning how to let go of resentments I was holding against everybody in the world, like they owed me something. Resentment is not good to hang on to. I mean, it's very painful and dark. And the idea, I can forgive you and just let go of it, I didn't have that until I went through a Twelve-Step program. As soon as I got that and the relief I felt from forgiving the first person, now I'm hungry and thirsty to forgive more. Who else am I holding resentment against? Let's get to the bottom of this. And just really giving me more control and a more enjoyable life experience. 

00:48:05 Larry: In fact, you know, the first time I got through the first AA program, the Twelve-Step program, I'm like, what's the next one? What's the next one? Like I didn't want to do the first one. But now as soon as I get through it, I'm like, what's next? What's next? And I went through ACOA and CODA and Al-Anon and all these other programs. I think I went through Overeaters Anonymous, whatever you got a Twelve-Step program for. Find me, I'm gonna try. 

00:48:34 Cinnamon: You became like the stair master of the Twelve Steps. Like you were doing all of them, like just on a rotating basis. So the piece that you had talked about, you know, the power of forgiveness and letting go of resentment and letting go of that control and being able to turn things over. How did that maybe conflict with that old version of Larry or maybe still a portion of Larry that likes to dominate or intimidate, but is also simultaneously lazy?

00:49:04 Larry: Very lazy. 

00:49:06 Cinnamon: Usually it's kind of like, oh, I don't have to do this, so I'll fling it out there and give it to somebody else and give them your free time. But those are tricky things. It's, you can initially not feel like you're actually benefiting from having to give away or let go of that sense of that perception of control. So how did your life look different when you were doing that domination and intimidation? And what were all of the people saying that got to meet this new version of Larry that they probably didn't recognize or maybe even didn't believe in the case of the body snatchers?

00:49:43 Larry: And I tell you, I have run into quite a few people that knew the old Larry Turner from the days on the street. And we start talking. First of all, I don't talk about old war stories. I don't want to talk about any of that stuff. In fact, I want to talk about something more important, more meaningful. And I start guiding the conversation into kind of like what we're having now. And I've had it a few times, like one guy used to work as a CI for me, came up. As soon as I start talking, after a few minutes, he's like, Holy crap, what happened to you? And I'm like, what? He goes, this is not the Larry Turner that I know. And I'm like, well, what do you mean? 

00:50:30 Larry: He goes, well, the old you, we'd walk into a room, even a crowded bar. And suddenly everybody's scared. Like, scared of what? And they said, scared of you. Because you look like you're going to kill everybody in the entire room. And I said, well, I had a plan. So as I step in the room, I'm looking for escape routes. And who do it? And if things go south, who do I got to kill first? And do I have enough bullets for this entire room? Or do I got, you know, I'm coming up with plans. That's how I was living in a hypervigilant mind. Like no matter where I'm at, I got to walk my six and I got to have a plan. And whether you live or die, I had it that I'm the scariest guy in the room and I have to be that way because I want us all to survive. 

00:51:20 Larry: Let me tell you, that is something that I cannot control. And I told him, yeah, you know, I used to do that a lot. I was kind of a sketchy guy. I own all of that. And yeah, I'm not really interested in living that lifestyle anymore. In fact, I see life completely different now. And in fact, the universe is spinning the exact opposite direction for me. And I'm not going back. I'm never going back to that guy again. I'm on a new path now. I actually enjoy my life. I've never been able to say that before. I can feel love. I love you. Who had ever told you that before? But I know what love is and I have it. And you know what? I have value. I have worth.

00:52:08 Larry: I actually love waking up in the morning and being Larry Turner. I used to wake up and just as soon as I wake up, you know, what fires are waiting for me this morning? What do I got to put out? What disasters are unfolding that I got to go, control? Now I just wake up and I have a daily morning routine that I follow. I surrender my life to God. It's the first thing I do since I wake up in the morning. I look at the clock. All right, new day, thank you, and I surrender my will over to my higher power. And I pray and meditate, I do different things and I get back to work here. 

00:52:51 Erin: Yeah, and I appreciate that you touched on that morning routine. It's something that we strongly encourage folks to begin to implement in their life, that it's so important to have that structure and that base to start off your day with something that is focused on being the healthiest version of you. So just like getting up and running into your day, like having that intention behind it. And since I know that we're kind of getting close on time, I do wanna make sure that our listener understands how to contact Save A Warrior. After hearing the story, I can't imagine who wouldn't wanna go through it and hear about it. But I know it's probably kind of limited, especially if it has outside funding. So can you tell us a little bit about that and who qualifies and how we can get them there?

00:53:38 Larry: The way who qualifies now is a US veteran from anywhere. First responders have served in the state of Ohio, police or fire. And I think due to some very, very, very generous people, I am now able to take firefighters from Kentucky as long as they go through the Jo and Chip Terry Foundation.

00:54:08 Erin: Awesome. 

00:54:09 Larry: Lexington, Lexington, Kentucky. If you're a first responder, I got a guy that'll pay for your seat. 

00:54:15 Erin: I love it. 

00:54:16 Larry: But if you want to come, which I highly recommend, just go to SaveAWarrior.org. On the side of the website, it will say about our program. It'll say apply, male, female. And you'll know your application came through because then you'll be presented with a calendar to schedule a rostering call which typically be with me or Rosa Torres, Josh Conrad's coming on board, Joe Robb, one of us will process and really just have an hour conversation seeing if what you're struggling with is something that we can actually help you with. Most… What we work with is we like to call, what we don't like to call, it's what it's called, complex PTS, which is–

00:55:03 Erin: Beautiful.

00:55:04 Larry: Which is typically trauma that starts in childhood and then coupled with the trauma of being a first responder, kind of odd. Like if I had a certain type of childhood, there's a good chance that's going to lead me to be a veteran and first responder. And when I get there, because I had that childhood, I have no idea how to process trauma or that's what led me into these fields in careers where I'm going to be waiting in trauma. In fact, when you have trauma going on in your life, call us to come deal with the trauma who have no idea how to process the trauma for ourselves. And it just builds up trauma as you don't process it. It just builds up, builds up, builds up, builds up, builds up to this, nowhere else to stop it. And so that's what complex PTS is. 

00:56:01 Larry: I've already got this almost a direction in life due to these certain events that happened. I have a perspective of life and the universe due to these events. And it's leading me to become a veteran or first responder. And then when I get there, I have no idea how to process the trauma that I'm going to accumulate. I'm just going to try and store it and pretend that I don't have it like me at the distillery telling Pat Atkinson, I'm not. That's me trying to pretend that I'm not hiding a whole bunch of trauma that I have no idea how to process.

00:56:38 Cinnamon: Somehow, even if it's just through Jedi Mind Trick, we have been able to have our podcast guests talk about childhood adversity or those adverse childhood experiences, because that's the one thing that we are also doing differently than you, but really trying to help people understand that the trajectory that they're on, what they experienced in their earlier life, absolutely has a part of it. And the day that I saw you speak, I don't know if you remember there was a retired Marine who was also a Seattle firefighter who said, criminals and first responders are two branches on the same tree. 

00:57:25 Larry: Absolutely. 

00:57:26 Cinnamon: I remember looking around the room going, Is anyone gonna like, get up and pummel him? And so now, I mean, I use that all the time and it helps people understand, oh, I can see how I can let go of maybe being offended or wanting to protect around the idea of having faced childhood adversity. If what you're also about to tell me is I took the path where I got to be who I didn't have or replicate somebody that did intervene on my behalf. I mean, we did an ACEs, a series. That's what I train about is helping first responders understand how, and we don't even use complex PTS as a phrase or a framework, and maybe I'll integrate that in there. But yes, the importance of recognizing you didn't get in this chair for no reason, and it didn't start with your professional career.

00:58:22 Larry: It’s a miracle that I became a police officer. I mean, my childhood experience was so abusive and we're running out of time. I don't want to get into all those stories. It's neither here nor there. My A score is an eight. I got kicked around like a soccer ball a little bit when I was a kid. And the thing, I knew when I was 17, there's no, I'm not college material. There's no, my parents aren't rich. I'm not going to go to college. I'm not, and I hate school. I hate my life. I hate… and I told my mom I wanted to go to the army and she said, y'all not, signing any paperwork for you to go to army. You'll get hurt. And I told my mom, well, if I don't go into the army, maybe you can visit me in prison. Good chance I'll be getting hurt in prison if you’re worried about me getting hurt. 

00:59:17 Larry: And she, like, thought about all that and then just grabbed the paper and signed it. But in my head at 17 years old, I knew I was like a fork in the road. I need to either go get into something with some structure in the military. Or I'm going to get in trouble because I… rebelling against authority, rebelling against life. And I thought if I don't go towards the military, I'm going to end up in that prison over there and thank God my mom signed the paperwork, but they don't, this is chance, really.

00:59:56 Erin: What an intuitive thought too, like I know that I gotta do something with this. 

00:59:59 Cinnamon: I need structure. 

01:00:01 Erin: Well, I will say that, Larry, it's been incredible to have you on the show today. It's a great segue into the May symposium being held in Northern Kentucky. Jake is the keynote speaker and back to back with Cinnamon who's presenting the Aces, no accidents there, the way that they set it up. So hopefully, can really support people and understanding like, yeah, this is legit. We're not all sitting here making this stuff up and you're not alone and there's options. And love the fact that Kentucky is getting opened up and they are able to be part of this. 

01:00:36 Larry: Me too. 

01:00:36 Erin: And that this is yet another beautiful tool for people to find healing and that you are not with clinicians in there. You are with your peers. You are with people that get it, that have seen it and come to the other side. And we've been really advocating for that peer work too. More recently, kind of like leaning into that more about if you've done it and you found a way out, be a peer, support your brother and getting through this. It's fantastic. I'm so excited for our listeners to hear this particular episode and thanks for taking the time to do it. And even though I know you're not gonna listen to it or watch it or hear it, it'll make a difference. I know it.

01:01:17 Larry: You know what, and if the listener out there hears this and they want to fill out an application, again at the end of the application, you schedule a rostering call. I'll be talking to you really soon. 

01:01:31 Erin: Perfect. And we'll make sure that we have all of the information on our website, on our resource page and including your book. 

01:01:41 Cinnamon: Franco The Succulent.

01:01:42 Erin: Recommended books for our listeners and so we know that we'll be bumping into each other soon. 

01:01:50 Cinnamon: Is Franco back there somewhere? 

01:01:52 Larry: Franco, well, there's a poster of him behind my head. Yeah, yeah, Franco. 

01:01:57 Cinnamon: Okay, the Franco. 

01:01:59 Larry: The Franco. 

01:02:01 Cinnamon: Oh, Franco. Oh, he's got a little accent. That is adorable. I also see your license plate back there that says Killbuck. 

01:02:09 Larry: Yeah, this office just, it's not a trophy room. It's really, most everything in here is gifts people have, some way, shape or form and it's just special. I'm sitting in here all day. I'm in here all day. I should like the stuff on the wall. 

01:02:28 Erin: And feel inspired and encouraged and supported too while you're doing that for others. Awesome. 

01:02:34 Cinnamon: Yeah. Well, Larry, as maybe no longer your number one fangirl, but among many who have been profoundly moved and transformed by hearing about your experience, listening to your reflections on it. Thank you for being willing to do this with us and I'm very grateful. And I can't imagine even if it's not you that anybody that will listen will not understand how profoundly important something like SAW is. And the thing that we talk about peers is peers can be so many people's last stop, right? 

01:03:14 Cinnamon: Like there are so many people that their lives can be transformed and they can find healing without ever talking to one of us clinicians because we have people like you and Jake and the ones doing the work at SAW and on our peer teams that allows us to do work with the ones who might need a little bit more help. And yeah, I'm just so impressed by your story. I've, you know, it's been a while and I've not been hesitant or shy about saying that. And I'm just really glad our paths crossed at some fork in the road and that you get to be a part of our lives through this. So thank you very much. 

01:03:55 Larry: Thank you both for inviting me. And I hope it helps somebody. I really do. I hope somebody hears it and it saves a life. 

01:04:04 Erin: It's the goal. 

01:04:05 Cinnamon: That's the plan. Saving Warriors.

01:04:14 Erin: Thank you for joining us for today's episode of After the Tones Drop. Today's show has been brought to you by Whole House Counseling. As a note, After the Tones Drop is for informational purposes only and does not constitute for medical or psychological advice. It is not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Please contact a local mental health professional in your area if you are in need of any assistance. You can also visit AfterTheTonesDrop.com and click on our resources tab for an abundance of helpful information. And we would like to give a very special thank you and shout out to Vens Adams, Yeti, and Sanda for our show's music.