Blue Horizon with Jess Flores

EP39: Blue Horizon

00:00:00 Jess: I started when I was 21, so I was just a baby. Huge culture shock. That's not how the world works. That's how first responders see the world work. And I think that's important to realize because when you're submerged in it, that is the world. I can tell you the time I lost my soul was watching a guy that just shot my partner. That was a moment where I realized this shit is real. Two years later, I was shot at and then seeing my department react to that and be less than concerned. We talked about the injury and then, like I said, one day, you're done.

00:00:32 Jess: Two and a half years I sat in a depressive pity party funk before I finally started saying, okay, well nobody's gonna come save me, I've gotta figure this out. Part of Next Shift's mission is to help them rediscover their identity, redefine their purpose, because that was something that I was like, "I have no purpose. My job was to serve my community." Well, here I am, seven and a half years later, serving a different community when I'm incredibly honored to serve because I served alongside them. We really focus on what brings you a sense of purpose.

00:01:10 Cinnamon: It's the first responder, the first to get the call, the first on scene, greeted by God knows what, pushed beyond the limits that they don't even set. Then what happens? You're listening to After the Tones Drop. We're your hosts. I'm Cinnamon, a first responder trauma therapist who founded our practice after seeing the need for specialized care following a local line of duty death. 

00:01:37 Erin: And I'm Erin. I'm a first responder integration coach. 

00:01:41 Cinnamon: We help first responders receive transformational training, therapy, and coaching. 

00:01:46 Erin: Now we come to you to explore, demystify, and destigmatize mental health and wellness for first responders. 

00:01:55 Cinnamon: Our show brings you stories from real first responders, the tools they've learned, the changes they've made, and the lives they now get to live.

00:02:11 Erin: Quick heads up before we start. We want to acknowledge that some of the content we discuss on our show can be triggering for some listeners. Some of our episodes may touch upon themes like traumatic experiences, PTSD, suicide, and line of duty deaths. We understand that these topics are sensitive and might evoke difficult emotions. If you are currently struggling with your mental health or have experienced traumatic events recently, listen with caution. Now, if you're ready to proceed, let's begin.

00:02:44 Erin: The freaking universe really wants to interrupt this incredible guest that we have on our show today because boy, we are having some really fun tech breakdowns, but we are here, we made it. You all missed the jokes about Destiny's Child and her being Beyonce. What else have you missed? 

00:03:04 Jess: But not a single lady. 

00:03:05 Erin: But not a single lady. 

00:03:06 Cinnamon: But not a single lady. 

00:03:07 Erin: Right, but let's emphasize that. You missed the fact that her husband, who is also a first responder, does not take her coaching. So, yeah. 

00:03:17 Cinnamon: As does similarly, Erin and my, our spouses, they don't take our coaching either. 

00:03:25 Jess: No, we don't know anything. 

00:03:26 Erin: No, we don't. And in fact, like we're really wrong in their way, works. So it's fine. We'll just let them suffer. What I was saying earlier was how amped I am about the platform of Instagram because Instagram has put so many cool people in front of us doing the same things that we're doing. Being in the forefront of breaking down that stigma of what first responder mental health looks like. And so Jess, our guest today, we just met a couple of weeks ago through a comment post that we made and she commented on it. And then I said, we get to be friends. We get to have you on the show. I love it. 

00:04:09 Jess: It's crazy how the internet works. 

00:04:10 Erin: So great. 

00:04:12 Cinnamon: And she will ambush you with her friendship. Like it's not really up to you. She's like, "you are in the circle..."

00:04:20 Jess: I'm here, I'm in the circle of trust.

00:04:21 Cinnamon: And you're like, okay. 

00:04:23 Jess: I love it. 

00:04:24 Cinnamon: That's right. And right in the middle, just squished in between, you're like, the PB and J and we're just like white bread. 

00:04:31 Jess: I feel like I was warned about this my whole life. 

00:04:32 Cinnamon: I know, wild. Usually it's a massive.

00:04:36 Erin: Right, like, fuck. Don't talk to strangers. 

00:04:38 Jess: I also [inaudible] with strangers now and they drive me around. 

00:04:41 Erin: Yeah. Well, they can't. 

00:04:42 Cinnamon: This is what we tell our children not to do. Yeah. 

00:04:45 Jess: It's not. 

00:04:46 Erin: Yeah. 

00:04:47 Jess: I pay them too, you know. 

00:04:49 Erin: Isn't that funny?

00:04:49 Jess: Yep. 

00:04:52 Cinnamon: I get in their car, I pay them money. 

00:04:54 Erin: Right. 

00:04:54 Cinnamon: With my credit card. 

00:04:55 Erin: Times have changed. 

00:04:58 Cinnamon: And then if they, you know, if their car doesn't stink–

00:05:01 Erin: That’s right.

00:05:01 Cinnamon: I'll give them extra money. I watched a video the other day and it was like taking normal things that humans do out of context and like describing them a little more in detail and it made you realize how weird some of the shit we do on a day to day basis.

00:05:22 Erin: Is it the one with a lady with a dog like, "Hi, I have an animal in my house. You live here."

00:05:26 Cinnamon: Yes! That lady. 

00:05:27 Erin: Did I send it to you? Because I was going to send it to you. 

00:05:29 Cinnamon: I don't think so. Maybe you did. I can never. Sometimes Erin will send me stuff that I've already sent her or vice versa, which tells you that we share a sense of humor. Like not, we have the same one that we share one. Like she got half, I got half. Yeah. 

00:05:47 Jess: As long as it works. 

00:05:49 Erin: Yeah, we're strange. It works though. 

00:05:51 Cinnamon: We'd be dysfunctional if we weren't so entertaining. 

00:05:54 Erin: Mm-hmm, true. Or we think we're entertaining. 

00:05:57 Jess: You guys should have your own show. 

00:05:59 Erin: Oh my God. That is such–

00:06:02 Cinnamon: That is a good idea. 

00:06:04 Erin: You are just, resource. 

00:06:08 Cinnamon: Yeah. Resource. 

00:06:10 Erin: Well, and that's what's so funny about this show is, first of all, Cinnamon's a wealth of knowledge. She's very smart, but not only is she smart, she's very entertaining and can talk like no other. So, you know, there's never a dull moment and we never run out of things to say. 

00:06:25 Jess: It's like she deals with people for a living. 

00:06:27 Erin: Right. Yeah. Yeah.

00:06:29 Cinnamon: And people that you have to have a quick wit with or they will run you right over. But my mother will tell you I've never met a stranger. Like since birth. And when the DSM-5 TR came out, I was like, oh, look, there's a diagnosis for that. It's from childhood trauma. 

00:06:51 Erin: Thanks, mom. 

00:06:53 Cinnamon: And like literally there's now a diagnosis around children having zero hesitation of engaging with strangers, and it is grounded in childhood trauma. 

00:07:07 Jess: I feel like everything kind of roots back to childhood trauma we're learning. 

00:07:10 Cinnamon: Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. 

00:07:14 Erin: Further along we get, the more that gets brought up by our guests or by us, like we have a whole three-part series specifically about adverse childhood experiences, because well, and we've say, it all the time, it's Cinnamon's jam, but it's true. And it helps us understand, like, why are we like this? Oh, okay. This makes so much more sense. Not that necessarily knowing why it helps, but at least it gives us a little bit of, answer and we can figure out what we're gonna do about it. 

00:07:42 Jess: Yeah, for sure. And I feel like as fine as I thought my childhood was, the older I get and the more I see things about myself, I'm like, there's something to that. 

00:07:52 Erin: Yeah, doesn't mean it had to be bad. 

00:07:53 Jess: Right.

00:07:55 Erin: Yeah. 

00:07:55 Cinnamon: Well, and our friend, Trevor Wilkins, he's like The Angry Viking or what is, The Therapy Viking, something like that. 

00:08:04 Erin: Angry Viking. 

00:08:05 Cinnamon: Angry Viking. He is fabulous. He looks intimidating, but he's like a big teddy bear. But he used a word or a phrase. 

00:08:12 Erin: She didn't say that. Trevor, she didn't say that. 

00:08:14 Cinnamon: I didn't know he used it. Real aggressively. 

00:08:17 Erin: He's russky. Yeah.

00:08:19 Cinnamon: Yeah. He used a phrase while I was observing him. And it was like ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, that's it. And he said, when we get triggered by events, when we feel helpless, hopeless, or less than, and Erin and I have talked about this, by the time we hit double digits, we've all had an experience of feeling helpless, hopeless, or less than. And when you're a kid, you don't have coping skills to deal with those feelings that first time. Like the first time that you realize, like other people question your worth. And that could have happened before you even have a memory, or it could have happened when you first go, to school, or it could happen when you hit middle school. 

00:09:09 Cinnamon: I mean, it can happen whenever, but usually by the time you hit double digits, you've already got one on your belt. And because you're young without coping skills, it's super painful. And that's what we always go back to. I don't want to hurt, like that. 

00:09:22 Jess: Right. 

00:09:22 Cinnamon: And so we're all operating to some degree throughout our lives with how do we avoid that level of pain? 

00:09:31 Jess: And if you don't have a parent who can show you what those coping skills should be because they just continue their own cycle from what they had learned, it's a disastrous recipe if you don't get some help, in there. 

00:09:42 Cinnamon: Yeah. 

00:09:42 Erin: Exactly. 

00:09:43 Cinnamon: And sometimes even when you don't want to do what your parents did, like you don't know what anything else looks like. 

00:09:51 [Jess]: Right.

00:09:52 Erin: Or you overcompensate to a fault. And then you're still, like causing issues. 

00:09:58 Cinnamon: Harm. 

00:09:58 Erin: Yeah, it's like that smothering helicopter parent. 

00:10:00 Cinnamon: And I think that's what we're seeing. Yeah, I was gonna say, that's what we're seeing a lot now. And I think when generation alpha starts being able to, you know, be older or whatever, we're gonna see them, parent differently because they're gonna be like, we were so entitled. We just got way too accommodated and I don't want to raise kids like that. And then all of a sudden we're going to have Gen Alphas parenting like baby boomers and silent generation. And then we'll have another generation of dysfunction and it will go on forever and ever and ever. 

00:10:34 Jess: The never ending cycle. 

00:10:36 Erin: Never going to not be dysfunctional in the world of families. It just is. And I'm, I was going to see how I could correlate dysfunction with what I was gonna say, but I can't, it would be rude. So.

00:10:48 Cinnamon: It would be rude. 

00:10:50 Erin: Today, we have Jess Flores with us. Jess started her career in law enforcement when she was a little 21 year old person, which blows my mind every time we see these youngsters come in and I know that's common and normal, but every time I see these kids, their kids, cause now I'm old and I can say that, come in. No offense, guys, you are adults. I know you, you know, you can vote and all that, bye boos. But it feels like, oh my gosh, what a young age to get thrown into this whole world. Barely even having tasted what adulthood looks like. But just 10 short years later, when you were 31, your career got taken from you due to an injury. Was the injury at work? Was it because of something that happened at work? Or was it?

00:11:38 [Cinnamon]: Oh, there's the stove work.

00:11:41 Jess: I think that's what makes the whole thing worse is we could never prove it happened on duty. So I didn't get to medically retire. I got none of those types of benefits. I just got screwed and said, thanks for your service. See you later. And literally, [with new part], yeah. 

00:11:55 Cinnamon: Admin betrayal. Can you share with us? 

00:11:59 Jess: Yeah. So it was my one hand and something happened with some ligaments in here to where I couldn't grip like I should be able to. I dealt with it for about two years. It started when I was a detective. So no big deal, like you're just writing and typing. You're not typically dealing with people. But then I got promoted because I saw the need for some leadership and said, oh, I feel like I'm a good fit for that. So I went in, tested, got the sergeant spot, but that means you, yeah, that means you go back to midnight on patrol. Nobody freaking wants that, but that's what happens. 

00:12:30 Jess: So I would wear a brace on my wrist because it was more so my thumb that couldn't engage and my gun hand, of course. So you're drawing your gun, you're having to grab people. It's the first hand you use. I was a very, I don't want to say aggressive officer, but I wasn't going to let you get the first drop on me. Let's just say that. 

00:12:46 Cinnamon: Assertive. 

00:12:47 Jess: Yeah. Assertive. So I would wear a brace. I would rip it off on the way to a call so nobody would see it as a weakness or know that something was wrong with me and try to have the hand up. I'd rip it off. I'd do my job. And then for about a week, I couldn't really use my hand anymore. If I had to, in an adrenaline rush, sure, but that's not safe. That's not smart. After doing that for a while, I was like, I've got to get this looked at. 

00:13:11 Jess: So I got it looked at. There's a cyst in there, something wrong with the ligament out of its sheath, whatever. I don't know. It's called something technical. But they're like, you need a surgery. And I was like, okay. They're like, it's simple. Three to four months, you'll be back to good as new. It'll be good. I had been a sergeant for about a year. So I was like, okay, sure. 

00:13:30 Jess: Three to four months went by, I was not good. Five, six months went by with different types of therapy for it. Still not good. At the time, my boyfriend, but now husband, was moving states to work at a different department. We kind of took that as a sign of, okay, well, I mean, I clearly can't do my job. I guess it's over. And had to turn in that paperwork and suffer for about two and a half years before I finally started saying, okay, well, nobody's gonna come save me. I've got to figure this out and make the rest of my life happen because there's a whole lot left, hopefully, for me to figure out and live.

00:14:05 Cinnamon: Wow. And look what has come out of it, right? Like. 

00:14:11 Jess: Biggest blessing, biggest blessing. 

00:14:14 Erin: And that's interesting. I mean, it takes a minute. Like it sounds like it took you about seven years to be like, what in the hell am I gonna do now? 

00:14:24 Cinnamon: When you said, I felt like there was needed leadership and I was up for it, right? Like, huh, who knew that this was the kind of leadership that you were, you know, manifesting, which required that you go through this so you could be where you are now and help the people that you're helping. So that's actually kind of sad and cool. 

00:14:49 Jess: My dream for as long as I could remember was becoming a cop, but more so a detective. My only goal, I remember being on the oral board at 20 years old. I wasn't hired until a month before I was 21 and saying, I want to be a voice for the victims. That was my only goal. I wanted to get justice for the victims. It wasn't about the chasing. I didn't even know I wanted, patrol. I was like, I did a couple of ride-alongs with some hot cops back then. I was like, yeah, this is great. I want to do this. 

00:15:14 Jess: But I wanted to be a detective. That was my ultimate career goal. Well, you can reach that in three and a half years if you really want to at most departments. So thank God, I didn't do that because it pushed me to keep doing different things and getting there, but then when it was taken away from me, and I thought I had taken a lot of steps at my second department to not eat, live, and breathe police work, but I guess I hadn't, because when it was ripped from me, I lost everything. 

00:15:41 Jess: I thought I had lost everything. I knew cognitively that I didn't lose everything. I still had my boyfriend, I still had a home, I still had bills paid, I still had those things, but I lost every bit of who I was, at least what I thought I was and getting to rebuild that person has been the greatest adventure and blessing of my life. 

00:15:59 Erin: Your identity, and I love that you said that because, and this has been, actually the common conversation that continues to show up in all of our guest interviews, most of them is that lost identity in being a first responder in whatever capacity that is. They lose their jobs or they have to medically retire or whatever the thing is, and then they're like, oh my gosh, I'm no one now. I don't even know who I am. But you took that pain, you turned it around, you figured it out, you became the founder of Next Shift. You focus as a coach, specifically with law enforcement officers who are looking to transition out of their career, or maybe they're forced to transition out of their career, and what's next for them. 

00:16:42 Cinnamon: What about retirement? 

00:16:44 Jess: So, and it's funny, when the idea for Next Shift came around, I thought, ooh, I can help cops who have been forced out of their career due to injury. That was the initial, this is what I'm gonna do. As time went on, and I didn't really wanna focus on retirement, because they get a whole career, they get to live out their dream. They get resources to help them with retirement and planning for afterwards. But as I started getting into it, a lot of retired people filled out my market research form, and they had the same thoughts and feelings, but they did adapt differently. They were more prepared for it, I will say, but they're still not my ideal target client.

00:17:18 Jess: Like I will work with them. I will definitely help them because the mental part of, and I'm not a therapist, guys, just a point, but the mental part and the thoughts and feelings you go through when you leave this career is the same across the board. But as I've gotten into it, there's a need for people wanting to leave this field. And as heartbreaking as that is, because I know it's a needed field with good people in it. I've been on the other side for seven years now, and I know it is so much greater of a life on this side that the faster I can help people realize that and get them to that, to where they are actually living their best life, for them, the better.

00:17:57 Erin: Hey there, listener. If you could ask any question or freely talk about any challenge related to being on the job and no one would know, what would you say? We are excited to share about our confidential hotline that we created just for you. Through this confidential hotline, you can leave a message sharing a success, a struggle, or simply ask a question. We will spotlight calls and offer feedback and insight from a licensed therapist and a certified coach who work exclusively with first responders. 

00:18:31 Erin: You can access our hotline voicemail by visiting afterthetonesdrop.com and clicking the voicemail tab. Additionally, you can join our mailing list if you'd like or easily follow us on Facebook and Instagram for all the most recent updates. You know the drill. Telephone, tell a friend, tell a first responder.

00:19:02 Erin: Yeah, well, and it can be a great life in the career as well. When you are also focusing on what the heck can I be doing to take care of my mental health and my physical health? Like, what's the protocol here? So if it's this proactive mentality, then it's different than when all of a sudden years in, you're like, oh my gosh, I'm destroyed and I don't know what to do next. 

00:19:27 Erin: I have actually coached, so yay coaches. I had the pleasure of working with a client who medically retired basically and was one of those same things. Like, I don't know what I'm gonna do. I, and he was so angry. Boy, the anger. And Cinnamon got him even more angry. Once I got him, I mean, he was kind of like, he was less angry. And now this man is thriving in a way that brings tears to my eyes. Every time I get on a call with him, I'm like, who are you? I wish we could say who he is and make him our poster child, but obviously we can't, confidentiality and such.  

00:20:03 Erin: But boy, it's like you said, if people only knew that there's so much more, and if this is your life's mission to be in law enforcement or to be a firefighter, paramedic, whatever the thing is, awesome. And please be sure that you're taking care of yourself at the same time that you're progressing through your career so that you don't–

00:20:26 Cinnamon: Yeah.

00:20:27 Erin: Hit this giant wall of pain and darkness. But you've also recently, over the summer, you launched a podcast called The Next Shift Podcast. And we had to make sure we got that right. So again, another resource out there for our listeners, she's, I've already added her podcast to our resource page. So in case you forget, visit our resource page. She's on there. But any extra resources we can gather for our collective listeners, because I imagine eventually when we get in front of more people, they'll probably be overlapping is the goal, right? 

00:21:06 Erin: Because even though we're both in this mental health sphere and/or the three of us are all doing this, we still have a different voice and a different delivery. And Cinnamon and I are clear that we're not for everybody. Like we’re not–

00:21:21 Jess: One of the best lessons you can learn, I am not for everybody and that is okay. 

00:21:26 Erin: Right, I don't want to be for everybody because I want to be me. I don't want to have to change who I am to fit what works for you. 

00:21:32 Cinnamon: If I'm too much–

00:21:33 Erin: But the ones–

00:21:33 Cinnamon: Go find someone else who is less. 

00:21:36 Jess: Yep, one winner. 

00:21:37 Erin: Right, yeah, exactly. So, saying all of that, it always makes my heart happy to hear that people take their obstacles and turn them into opportunities and make that their new vision or their new why for their life, especially when it comes to helping others. Because that is what changes the culture. That is what changes the conversation in our world. 

00:22:00 Jess: We can't get rid of the servant, heart. It's in there for a reason. 

00:22:04 Erin: Right, exactly. So yeah, I will stop talking and let you talk a little bit more. Obviously now we have the details about how the injury happened and what that looked like. But what was that transition and that process like in that seven years? Can you go into more specifics about where you were mentally and the conversations you had? And ideally, this will allow listeners to hear like, hey, you're not alone. You know, I've felt this too. And look what can happen.

00:22:36 Jess: Yeah. It was a disaster. It was a total shit show. Hopefully cussing is allowed because one might slip here or there. Good, good, good. So like you had said, I started when I was 21. So I was just a baby. When I look back, I'm like, "Holy cow, that was young to get into this." And I came from a very small town of 40 kids in my graduating class, and I went to... so then I was like, yeah. And then I went to Kansas City. So that is around 500,000 people probably at the time, and the police department is... or was around 1,500. So I'm like, "Oh my God, this is bigger than my entire school K through 12," like together in one department. Plus a farm town to the inner city.

00:23:18 Jess: Huge culture shock. Thank God I had gotten like two years of college under my belt in the inner city. I had done several ride-alongs. So I somewhat knew what to expect, but there is nothing that prepares you for how the world works when you have no life experience. And so I was growing up learning how the world works, and I put that in quotes in case people aren't watching, but that's not how the world works. That's how cops see the world work, and first responders in general.

00:23:45 Jess: And I think that's important to realize because when you're submersed in it, that is the world. And that is the view we get of it. It is... I mean, I lost my soul and I can tell you the time I lost my soul was watching a guy that just shot my partner die on the street. And I literally felt my soul lift out of my body and not give two shits about another human being who was dying in front of me. I didn't care. And I was like, "Wow, that's a really dangerous spot to be," I feel like. But it was that moment that I said, "I will never not go home to my family." That was a moment where I realized this shit is real, wow. And I was only a year in. 

00:24:19 Jess: It was the first... I had seven officers shot the first year I was in, but not around me. They were all my department, but I didn't know any of them. This was somebody from my academy class. We were just a year out. They told us some of you will have something critical in your first year. And you're like, "Sure, sure, sure, it'll happen. Not to me though." You're all invisible when you're new to this job and you think nothing is gonna happen.

00:24:42 Jess: Well, that happened and I was like, "Oh, well, okay." So I was determined, I am not gonna be a victim to this world, blah, blah, blah. Two years later, I was shot at Halloween of '09 when I heard the gunshots ring out and went over to do my job and then got shot at as I was holding someone else at gunpoint who had a gun. So, and then seeing my department react to that and be less than concerned. Does she feel like a victim is what the detective asked my sergeant when he called him.

00:25:12 Jess: Well, yes, and none of us want to say we're a victim. First of all, none of us want to admit that. But I was like, "No, I literally heard them whiz past my face." Yes, I feel like a victim. They were shooting at me. There was no one else in the vicinity for them to shoot at. So they saw me as a cop and wanted to shoot me. So it was really that moment I was like, "Wow, people hate me for just wearing this uniform." It's not me, it's not me personally. And at least I could recognize that it's this uniform and they see no other way out. So at least I could recognize that.

00:25:40 Jess: But the way the department responded to a critical incident, and because I didn't shoot back, I wasn't treated like anything happened to me. I had to take my own damn report for being an assault victim. I had to go to the hospital and interview two of the victims that got shot. And I was like, "This isn't for me." Like, I'm not gonna change this world's... Cinnamon's eye reaction. But that was a moment, I was 24 at that time. I'm never gonna change this world. That was my mindset. I didn't have a strong enough mindset to be like one person can change the world because I've seen plenty of people change it when they change their own. 

00:26:16 Erin: There's actually a John Legend song, One Man Can Change the World or One Woman. 

00:26:19 Jess: And it's 100% accurate. I mean, you've got to change your own and then things around you, domino effect will happen. But at the time, too burned out, too like whatever, and too really sad that my department did that to me. It's like, what the... I'm out here every night doing this. You people aren't even out here on the road and you're acting like this. So, took a year off, went to my next department, went through all the things. Patrol, hey guys, I'm gonna be a detective. Was a detective, my only goal, right? Was like, "Where's the challenge at this point?" Like, blah. Saw the need for leadership. I was like, "Well, my big city experience, my detective experience, I feel like I'm the best fit for this next role who can help lead this younger generation."

00:26:58 Jess: Got it? We talked about the injury and then, like I said, one day, you're done. And it was like, "Okay, well, you got to turn your stuff in." I turned my stuff in. I didn't even get to keep a memento to say I was ever a cop, to say I was ever a sergeant, like nothing. And I'm like, "Okay, wow, that sucks, that's rough." And then the quote unquote real world, they don't give a shit that you were a cop. They don't give two shits in the world that you were a cop, they don't care that you did. Everything you did by the time you were 29, you became a sergeant, you were leading people. A group of people, you were keeping them alive, you were making sure rights weren't violated, you were making sure the community kept functioning the way it's supposed to function, and they didn't care. 

00:27:45 Jess:  And that was like a dagger to the heart of, holy, why don't they see my value or my worth? And it was really a wake up call to be like, do you even see your value and your worth? And the answer was no, I didn't. I only knew my value and my worth as a cop, not as anything outside of that. So that was a smack in the face. I told you guys, I can't remember if we were recording or not at that point, but two and a half years, I sat in a depressive, pity party funk because no one else saw me or what I could do. I took jobs here and there. None of them had a purpose. Like they were just a job that was paying my bills, which was great, but there was no sense of purpose for me doing the jobs. And that was really hard. 

00:28:31 Jess: And I've talked to so many cops now that when we don't feel that purpose, that's when we really can get in our head and get bad. And I did not seek help. I'll say I did not seek help during that two years. But I did develop habits that helped keep me functioning, if you will. I had a support system, which was great. Throughout my second department, I ensured I had friends outside of law enforcement. My first department, I did not. I slept with a cop. I lived with a cop.

00:29:00 Jess: I hung out with cops on my off time. I worked with cops, obviously. It was just nothing but cops and that horrible view of the world. There was nothing positive going on. Second department, sorry guys, you're work people. I'm not associating with you. I'm gonna have this group outside that will ask me, "Hey, how was your day? How was work?" And then drop it and be like, "Okay, cool. Let's move on and talk Royals baseball because at that time they were really good." We were winning the Royal series finally, but I needed that break and it still didn't help when it was ripped from me. 

00:29:33 Cinnamon: Yeah, of course not. That's grief. Something that we love so tremendously getting taken from us, it's like, there is no clean way to actually go through that process. We talk about that a lot too on here. 

00:29:45 Jess: And it took a long time to say, "Oh shit, this is grief." Because we think we have to lose someone for there to be grief. But no, no, anything you lose that you love, there's gonna be a grief period. And I stayed in that anger phase for a really long time. 

00:30:00 Erin: Yeah. Well, one of the things that you said right when you first started talking was about the Academy and about how they said, they warned you. They said, hey, some of you are gonna have a critical incident in the first year. And then it's like, okay, that's the end of the conversation? Like, okay-- 

00:30:15 Jess: They don't prepare you for what's to come. 

00:30:17 Erin: Right, it's like, okay, and then, good luck. So yeah, just so you know, this is gonna happen and you're not gonna know what the hell to do. And sorry, like, that's wild. And we're not gonna tell you. 

00:30:24 Jess: Right.

00:30:27 Erin: Oh, yeah, that's wild. 

00:30:28 Jess: Yeah, it's it's... 

00:30:31 Cinnamon: I have so many questions. Erin did not tell you, so I will be the one to tell you. It makes me feel better when she says it. But I am going to have lots of questions because I take the notes and their pages and pages. And so I already have like 64 questions. Erin answered one or asked one. 

00:30:49 Erin: You're welcome. Okay, now, 63 next. 

00:30:53 Jess: Well, let's go. Rapid fire.

00:30:55 Cinnamon: So which was your favorite Royals player? No, I'm kidding. That is not the question. 

00:31:00 Jess: I had a few. 

00:31:01 Cinnamon: So usually I ask the questions at the end, but we like when you talk. So we're not at the end yet. Just FYI. So you were talking about maybe the chief asking your sergeant, like does she feel like a victim? 

00:31:14 Jess: It was one of the detectives, like the assault squad detectives. Yeah. 

00:31:19 Cinnamon: Okay. So what was the underlying assumption as far as what it would mean if you would have said yes.

00:31:26 Jess: Yeah. And so I did. I did say yes. And I was I was honestly taken aback because at that department, you call a detective on every scene. So whether you're involved or not, you call a detective and they tell you, "Yes, we're responding. No, we're not responding. Here's what we're going to do." And so when my sergeant looked at me and was like, "They're wanting to know if you actually feel like." I'm like, to... I guess, determine, was it an assault on law enforcement or not?" I was like, "Yes." Again, I didn't want to be like, "Yes, I was a victim," because other people were shot. Like I had to go interview them. And so I was like, "What does that even mean? Why are we questioning?" I guess was I actually, I'm not just going to say I was shot at to say I was shot at, like nobody, and maybe they had dealt with that. I don't know, but no. 

00:32:13 Cinnamon: Well, and even if we change the phrasing, cause I think we do have a lot of negative connotation around the word victim. I mean, we've even changed like to survivor, like not that, but when I think about the question, what would have changed about the answer, the meaning of the answer and their interpretation of the answer if they would have said, was she victimized? That's not about your feelings. That's just about what happened. Were you a target of it rather than does she feel like a victim? Like is she a hot mess that can't do her job? 

00:32:53 Jess: And what's crazy about it is, I mean, when you talk about like training being ingrained in you, I had seven months of the academy and at this point I was out for three years, three and a half, about three years. It kicked in, I heard the shots at a stoplight, I go over, I park the way I'm supposed to, I make sure my camera's on, I make sure my body mic is on. I use cover to go up to this alleyway and stay behind cars, see a person with a gun. I'm gun pointed at him. He's not pointing it at me, so he's not a threat. He's got a gun, but he's like facing toward the back. I know, trust and believe. 

00:33:26 Jess: But all these kids are running out of this alleyway. And I say kids, they were probably older teens, early 20s. That's the kind of party it was for Halloween but they're running out. So again, I'm behind the car, gun at this guy, somebody from the back shoots forward at me. Like there's nobody else in between us, but I also can't identify who did it because there's people running through the alley. So again, you're training, you can't fire back. God forbid you hit somebody innocent trying to get who just shot at you. 

00:33:53 Jess: So when it happened, wow, I hear it. This kid's like, "fuck this," and starts running. So I run with him, but behind cover cause he's still got a gun. As soon as he goes to jump a fence, he drops that gun. And I'm like, "You know what, fuck that." I don't even care about him. I care about this gun to make sure nobody else picks it up and uses it. And I get it back to my car and it was a nail gun that he had converted to a 22. There were 22 bullets in a nail gun. 

00:34:19 Jess:  So when all these people want to come at officers who there's a super soaker that has a shotgun in it, that's a real thing. I know people don't wanna believe that, but that's real. The orange tip can be painted black. We don't have any freaking clue what's fake or not. A nail gun can apparently be a real gun that shoots real bullets and could kill me very easily. It's just one of those things that you're like, when the actual, these people have lost their mind out here. They're willing to do and disguise anything so that when you do your job, you're blamed for it. Like that's what it felt like. 

00:34:53 Cinnamon: And also the whole idea of who is not supposed to have access to a gun. There's how many felons are getting stopped at Home Depot from buying a staple gun or a nail gun.

00:35:05 Jess: And that's part of the issue in this country and we're not gonna go down that tangent. But people want to say this law that no they want to do something They're going to find a way to do it. These criminals are smart as fuck and they're gonna do whatever they need to do to make sure they can create whatever fear and terror it is that they want to invoke and like we'll stop that topic cuz that's a rabbit hole we can go. 

00:35:26 Erin: Oh yes. It's wild to be a civilian on the other side. We are considered civilians, obviously, even though we like to pretend like we're first responders because we've, I don't know, we basically do everything with you all except sleep with you and live with you. But especially Cinnamon's been many of a meal at the firehouse. But such a big thing is having this different level of understanding now how naive all these people are that are complaining about this stuff. It's like, you don't have any idea actually. And yes, so rabbit holes, I don't know. I guess we get to rant off air at some point.  But also I do think that it's important to say that civilians don't have any idea. All they see is what the news shows them and they have no clue what happens behind the scenes. 

00:36:19 Jess: Well, that's like parents at a school shooting that are like, well, I would have ran in there and I would have done this. I'm like, I would love to see that. Could you please? The next time this happens, because it will inevitably happen, could you please run into that school and tell me what you do that suspect? Because guess what? I have laws I have to follow just like you do. I can't just go shoot someone because this, they have to be a threat to me or others and then I can take action. I love that you think you could do this job, but I would love to see it in action. It's easy to say behind a keyboard what you would do and what you would do in a situation. 

00:36:49 Cinnamon: That reminds me of, I'm going to just call her my good friend. She does not know we're friends. Brene Brown talks about the man in the arena. If you are not in the arena getting dirty, filthy, being targeted, putting the work in. Don't sit up at this in the stands and think that I give two shits about what you think.

00:37:11 Jess: Yep, and that's one of those things we talked about earlier with a podcast and like I'm a perfectionist OCD I don't want to start. No, Brene Brown telling me if you're not also doing this, if you're not also trying to make a difference in an impact and start your podcast or get your message out, I don't really give two shits about what you think. I'm here doing what I want to do. I'm putting it out there. If people take it cool, if they don't, whatever, I'm going to at least try. You have no right to tell me anything about this. 

00:37:36 Erin: Yep. Look at us three empowered ladies. 

00:37:39 Cinnamon: There's a lot of things that can look easy. 

00:37:42 Erin: So sassy. We're like, uh-oh. 

00:37:44 Jess: It wasn't going to be a Girl Power episode, but here it is.

00:37:46 Cinnamon: We just make it look easy. 

00:37:47 Erin: That's so funny.

00:37:48 Cinnamon: This has been a theme that has come up a lot. And I just think everyone that has had this experience that is our guest gets to talk about it because we want our listeners to start noticing the frequency of which this is happening. Whether our listener is a leader or a rough neck, I want this to be heard. And that is about administrative betrayal. Like how powerful, the people at the top or the middle top, the decisions that they make, the words that they use, the attitudes that they have make a difference to people's mental health. 

00:38:31 Jess: 1000%. 1000%. And I have said, and I loved the seven years of freedom I had because now I'm back at the police department as a civilian, which is a whole other realm of things. But the freedom I had to say whatever I wanted for those seven years and really call attention to some things. But I'm finding that voice is coming back because the more I talk to these people who are looking to get out, it is never the stress of our job. The job itself, like going to calls and dealing with people's problems and things, one, we were trained for that. Everyone is very similar, just different actors, and you've got to adapt in the moment. But that part is easy. 

00:39:08 Jess: Even getting shot at, you were trained to what to do when that happens. So hopefully it sticks with you. But it is the, if I shoot, what is my administration gonna do? What is my prosecutor gonna do? If I do this on a call, what is my administration gonna do? What is the prosecutor gonna do? What is the citizen gonna do or their family? It's all the external things that create this burnout. And I know for me, it was about every four years where I hit like that burnout mode, where I was like, dude, I am freaking done. Like I am so sick of helping people that don't want help. 

00:39:41 Jess: And I think that's a common misconception. Like, yes, we're there for everybody. But we are typically only dealing with people in the worst moment of their day, of their life, of their whatever. And as seemingly minor as it may be to us, I'll just use like something that's stolen from my car. Minor AF compared to the things we deal with. But to that person, that victimized them. That made them feel like a victim. And sometimes it's hard for us because of the things we deal with to recognize that and see that.

00:40:10 Jess: So again, we can get complaints from people for doing that. And then again, your administration's getting involved when it's a bad thing, never a good thing. I have worked for three departments now and it's never like, "Hey, could you come in? I just wanna pat you on the back for doing a really great job with that." That is not what happens. It is, "I'm gonna take this seemingly minor incident, I'm gonna blow it up really big and everybody in command is gonna know about it." And then everybody's gonna start rumors because wow, you've been in the boss's office a lot lately. High school like we talked about type of thing, but it is not the stress of the job that gets to us. And I'm sure all first responders, not just cops, but it is, it starts at the top, the leadership. 

00:40:49 Jess: And if you've got leaders who are refusing to show up, meet their freaking people, go around and say, "Hey guys, it's FYI. I know you probably don't want to see me. I'm the chief, but I'm here. I am your chief. Oh, you're new here." Welcome, blah, blah, blah. What can I do for you guys? Thanksgiving just happened. And I had a conversation with someone about like, "It'd be nice if your department catered you a fucking dinner," but no, we rely on the churches and the civilians to bring dinner in or say, hey, our church is hosting this if you want to come by. I'm like, "We can't even take care of our own people. We refuse to do it. I'm going to get heated up. Oh, God, I should have worn short sleeves." But I'm like, we are, and I just had this conversation with a client the other day too, we are expected to treat people with the utmost respect, utmost humanity, be there.

00:41:33 Jess: And our departments can't even treat us like we're a freaking human. We are supposed to be a robot. We are supposed to just take it on the chin. We are just supposed to take however people treat us and keep coming back to work and doing the same thing and definitely not ask for help. You are just, oh my God, you asked for help. It's not accepted. And it's just, it's a thing that has to change. I keep saying when this generation of command gets out, maybe we'll have a better freaking chance because the new generation coming in as annoying as they are to me and as, as this new level of--

00:42:03 Cinnamon: Problematic. 

00:42:04 Jess: Yeah. It's just different. But they at least give a fuck about themselves and their, and their co-workers, they care about mental health. Like they've kind of grown up in this era of this is becoming an issue. We're okay to talk about it's not hush hush. And so as annoying as they might be, like, yeah. I need a mix of them. I need the top to get out and I need this younger generation to come up and deal with some of us that I would be in 17 years this month. Some of us that are kind of, we've had both. We've had the really old school world of cops, which is really fun. And we've had this new age where like, "Oh God," but like there has to be a balance and it has to be made...

00:42:42 Cinnamon: Acceptable, normalized. 

00:42:44 Jess: Yeah, normalized. Thank you for God's sakes. That was rough. 

00:42:48 Cinnamon: Anytime. 

00:42:48 Jess: One cup of coffee. That was not a good one. 

00:42:50 Cinnamon: Right.

00:42:53 Erin: Hey there to all you fearless folks who've been tuning in to After the Tones Drop. You know, we've been dishing out some real deal mental health wisdom for our first responders. And we need your help to keep it rolling. So here's the deal. Take a minute and do us a favor by leaving a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform. And listen, we're not expecting a novel here. Just a few lines about what you're appreciating about the show. Whether it's our interviews, perhaps the educational aspect or just our goofy humor and metaphors. And your feedback, it's like the gasoline in our engine, fueling us to bring you more of the good stuff. So let's keep that siren wailing and those reviews pouring in. Thanks, we appreciate you.

00:43:44 Cinnamon: So there's a couple things that I want to add. I know what Erin's thinking because we had this experience at a conference and somebody asked me a question that was basically setting me up to insult our millennials or Gen Zs that are in the field now. And I said, I think we're a little bit jealous because like as a Gen Xer, and I think of what you're describing like the Gen X of the law enforcement world. We've seen what's above us. We've been taught by the silent generation and the baby boomers, and we see what's coming in. And what I have figured out is we're all jealous because we never thought about saying, fuck that, you are not going to treat me like that. You are not going to talk to me like that. Just because I'm new here, doesn't mean I deserve hazing or disrespect. And they draw the line. 

00:44:43 Cinnamon: And I think the folks that are my age and older are kind of like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I took my punches. I am allowed to now punch down. You don't get to take that away from me." And so the idea that these folks are like, when you see this, that is bad. And you should be able to freely get help so you can keep doing this job. So why is this a problem? And there is no answer. There is no good answer. What I have come to realize is part of the reason we see so much resistance in that old guard is because what would it mean to say that you've been in leadership this long and you've been fucking over your people? 

00:45:32 Jess: Yeah. Self-improvement isn't a thing. 

00:45:34 Cinnamon: You have to own... Yeah, you have to own those mistakes and admit that we weren't doing it the best way, but we also can acknowledge we didn't know better then. So when you know better, you do better. And if you know better, and you're still clinging to the, you know, to justifying that like you're done, your time is done. 

00:45:53 Jess: Well, and you see departments entering the wellness programs now. And that's great. I'm glad we have wellness programs. But when the people implementing it are saying, "Hey, guys, we've got this now, our shit talking the wellness programs." There's a problem there. Like you're clearly not communicating this the way it's meant to be communicated. You're still being like, this is so dumb, but we have to do this now. The state said, like, that's a problem. And you're not helping anybody feel empowered to go to this and actually seek that help. 

00:46:20 Jess: And it's funny to hear people at work talk about, like, their generations, I guess, who embraces it a little more than others and who actually is like, I'm not saying a fucking word, I'll sit there and stare at her. Well, you can do that if you want. You're not helping yourself. And at some point, self-accountability, you have to take responsibility for where you're at. You have to just say, okay, maybe I'm not asking for help if you don't wanna call it that, but you're having a conversation with somebody who is a third party, has no idea who the hell you are, where you've been, what you've done. 

00:46:49 Jess: They're only getting your viewpoint of whatever's going on and can maybe give you that mirror to look into and be like, here's a tweak maybe on that thought or on that feeling or here's a different perspective of how to look at that. And that has been life-changing to me to hear and see perspective shifts and mindset shifts. I'm so thankful to those who have gone before me. You can be like, Yo, this is what you're saying, but this and what I'm hearing, this is maybe how you could look at that and game changer. 

00:47:17 Erin: I only made that face to him. And because you're like, you're out, your time is done. And I'm like, if only that face was like, if only. 

00:47:25 Cinnamon: Oh, she's like, oh, I read that as oh, shit, she's going to alienate. 

00:47:29 Erin: No, I'm like, yeah, your time is done. Passionate about it. Get out. 

00:47:34 Cinnamon: But I well, and and kind of like what you were saying, Jessica, was I I've run into that where because I'm out of the system, you're not the boss of me. I don't have to play hierarchy. And there are some admins that love me and some admins that are like, who do you think you're talking to? And a colleague. 

00:48:00 Jess: And to that point, that's where I love where Next Shift comes in because I am someone that's been there and done that for these people. And when you're dealing with first responders, but especially cops, they need to know that someone has been there. When they're coming to a therapist who has never been a cop or in our realm, they still have reservations and that's going to be what happens. So culturally competent is something I learned recently from our departments like mental wellness provider. She was a civilian with the FBI, so she's seen some shit. She did the child victim cases. She was at the Boston bombing and all of these.

00:48:33 Jess: I was like, "Girl, you have seen more than most cops are ever going to see in their life." So I love that she has been there, done that, and people should feel comfortable. You don't have to explain what an FTO is, what the hierarchy of your department is, all the bullshit that really annoys you. You don't have to explain it. You just start verbalizing. 

00:48:50 Cinnamon: Talking. 

00:48:51 Jess: And they get it. And they don't need you to be like, "Oh, she has seen worse things than most of us will ever see with what she did." So she's not going to start crying when you're like, "Oh, I saw this dead baby." She's not gonna do that or anybody that's culturally competent, it's not gonna start crying when you tell them your problems. Because I've heard plenty of officers go, that happened, and now they're like, "Nope, absolutely not, I'm not going back." And I'm like, "God, dang it." And people have to realize, you might have to date like five therapists before you figure out who was for you. 

00:49:23 Jess: It's not a one size fits all. It's not a one issue fits all, because maybe this issue, Erin, can help me with. Maybe this other issue, you know, I need more. Cinnamon to help me with this one. And like, that's okay. 

00:49:34 Cinnamon: Well, and that's how we operate. 

00:49:35 Jess: Yeah. Yeah. People just think that it's this there's a stigma because nobody's done it. We all have this idea in our head of what therapy is or what it looks like or what therapists are like. Go try it. 

00:49:45 Erin: We made a whole episode about that called MythBusters of Therapy. Episode two. Like about. 

00:49:52 Cinnamon: Oh, my God, that was so long ago. 

00:49:53 Erin: That was that was like, "Oh, we were babies." But it is it's like, I'm going to tell you, this is what you think it is because you watch movies and you hear stories and we are not sitting there. If you're culturally competent, you're not sitting there like, "So tell me about your feelings," and then saying nothing and not showing who we are so that they can trust us. But yeah, Cinnamon was gonna say that that's how we operate in our practice is we share clients because there are certain things like they'll come in, she is the trauma therapist. 

00:50:27 Erin: So they'll come in. First things first and start working through some of that real severe stuff, the critical incident stuff, the stuff that's really like causing them nightmares, quite literally. And then as they progress, there might be something like if they're struggling with substances, then they're probably going to get passed off to me. If they're struggling with anything with their spouse, with their children, they're probably going to come to me. You know, and then they'll go back to Cinnamon for something else. 

00:50:54 Erin: And what we've noticed is that it speeds up their process, their treatment process tremendously, so they can begin to thrive again. But the key is that we cringe too, when we're like, who did you see? Not that those people aren't capable, but they gotta get educated. They need to put themselves in the mix of what this looks like day in and day out. We have a vision to begin an academy to train clinicians who wanna work with first responders on. 

Okay, great, well now you're gonna go do, you're gonna go be at the firehouse for a minute. You're gonna go do these ride-alongs. You're gonna go sit at dispatch. Roll call. Like you get to see what really, really happens day in and day out, or you'll never get it. Cause you can't read it in a book. You can't. 

00:51:44 Cinnamon: And a good therapist can very quickly turn into a bad therapist if they are not culturally competent. And I don't know. It's not about blame, but I'm like, "Please, if you're going to go see a therapist, do not sabotage yourself by picking one off of like psychology today or something." We don't advertise anymore because all of our clients are word of mouth. Because that's how people find people that they trust when you do this job.

00:52:14 Jess: And that's tweeting up that no like trust factor. Oh, somebody I know trusted this person enough, I'm going to go to that BS.

00:52:22 Erin: And we're not tooting our own horns by the way, by any means. 

00:52:25 Jess: No. 

00:52:25 Erin: We are just... just like you, we have watched too many people see the wrong person and then they're like, F that. And then they're sitting in the room, their bedroom or their basement suffering. And that sucks. So there are people out there that know this job and that aren't gonna cry. 

00:52:43 Cinnamon: There's the alternative, right? So this is for other clinicians. For someone who doesn't do this work, it can feel very novel, right? Like, ooh, I got a cop or I got a firefighter that wants to come see me. I'd love to work with this population. And then they do nothing to prepare themselves for it. And, you know, I can appreciate that desire. I want to find people that have that desire so we can turn them into culturally competent clinicians. But you, you also have to be responsible as a clinician and understand what your scope is and not unintentionally, but yet knowingly sabotage somebody's experience that may turn them off altogether. 

00:53:32 Cinnamon: So the onus falls on all of us to make sure that we're reinforcing the idea of cultural competency when it comes to finding a therapist, as well as making sure the therapists who are interested in this population, like welcome, we need more of you. 

00:53:48 Jess: And please go do ride-alongs, observe us in our habitat, please go do that. 

00:53:52 Cinnamon: Yes, right. 

00:53:54 Erin: Like let's go to the police zoo. 

00:53:56 Jess: And we'll just in.

00:53:58 Cinnamon: That's great. 

00:54:00 Erin: Cinnamon, you said you had 63 questions. 

00:54:04 Cinnamon: Yeah. 

00:54:07 Erin: But you're probably answering them as we're talking. So that's the good news. 

00:54:10 Cinnamon:Yeah, I'm looking and I'm like, check, check, check. 

00:54:13 Jess: You're going to land on my list. 

00:54:14 Cinnamon: So I think we can roll back around to next shift because one of the things that you had said was you had always wanted to be a detective, right? And even though you thought you were a well-rounded person, when you lost your career in law enforcement, you realized how intricately woven your identity was into this and there wasn't much left. One of the things that we hear over and over again is what causes death in retirement is a lack of purpose, a lack of a mission, a lack of feeling like they're doing something. 

00:54:56 Cinnamon: And so as you're coaching these medically or physically or mentally healthfully retired law enforcement officers, how do you communicate the importance of finding a new mission to them as they transition into whatever their next career looks like? 

00:55:16 Jess: Yeah, great question. And I always leave with the story too. So when I was 10 years old, my grandpa, who had just retired from being a cop for 36 years, died six months later. And I think it was seeing his funeral and that community of cops, I really kind of burned in my brain of like, "Oh, wow, this is something bigger than myself," even though at 10, I didn't know what that was.

00:55:33 Jess: And so people have accepted, here's the deal, I'm gonna retire from this job, but I have to work again. Everybody has come to that realization. We're not done because we hit 20 years. But even the people I'm talking to, a lot of them are around that eight-year mark. And I'm like, "Yeah, we got a long life to live, okay, after this eight-year mark." What was that excitement when you were joining the police department? What gave you that excitement? What pushed you to do the insane amount of things we had to do to get hired in this job?

00:56:03 Jess: Yes, it's gotten frustrating over the last eight, 10, 20 years, but what was that initial? And then helping them rediscover their why. Why are you wanting to leave law enforcement? What is the root cause? Don't tell me because administration sucks. That's not good enough. Tell me why you're wanting to leave and I make them work backwards five different times of answering why, why, why administration sucks. Well, why? Literally, it's our job to articulate on the street what happened on a scene. Learn how to articulate in real life. Why, why, why, why, why?

00:56:36 Jess: And then part of Next Shift's mission is to help them rediscover their identity, redefine their purpose, because that was something that I was like, "I have no purpose. My job was to serve my community." Well, here I am seven and a half years later serving my community, but a different community when I'm incredibly honored to serve, because I served alongside them. And I'm like, "Wow, okay, that took a long time to freaking realize." And then to reignite their passions, because in this job, I feel like that's one of the first things to go.

00:57:03 Jess: Everything that brought you joy or like let you escape from law enforcement or first responder jobs You just throw to the window you you work and you sleep you work and you sleep and you get pissed off because your family Is like trying to like do things with you and you're like, "God dang it I just need to fucking sleep. Leave me alone." And it's one of those things and so we really focus on understanding what what brings you a sense of purpose? 

00:57:25 Jess: Sit down turn on some freaking nice music and come up with a list of things that make you feel like you have a purpose. Come up with all of the identities that you are. You can put ex-cop, you can put cop, you can put husband, father, wife, daughter, child of God, confident, you can put whatever it is that you identify as, but come up with that list. Give yourself 20 freaking minutes to come up with all of these different things that you are so you can see on paper that you're more than just a cop. That mindset has, and I don't even wanna say killed, but has hurt so many people.

00:57:56 Jess: I think I say it on every one of my podcast episodes and I'm like, "Please repeat this, push pause and report it. You are more than just a cop." And it took a long time to freaking realize that when I got out and it is my mission to shrink that for these people that are getting out and help them realize like, "Look at that list. Look at all the things you are. Look at all of the things you can do. What are the skills you have?" Here's all these law enforcement or not. Here are these things that you are and you can do. What do you talk about hours on end and you don't even have a problem talking about. Lean into that. 

00:58:29 Jess: Well, I don't know how to make that a position. I don't care if you know how to make that a position yet. It's not the how. It's like where are we getting to? We've got to get you to there. The how doesn't matter. Start leaning in, start taking action, and start getting clarity. And that, we talked about it, the perfectionist. Taking action is terrifying towards something that you don't know how it's gonna work out, especially for cops who are evidence based thinkers. I need to have proof. I need to have fact. I need to have the... No, no you don't.

00:58:54 Jess: You have to have a belief that it was placed on your heart for a reason and you're going to start working toward it. And if something says, whoops, we're going to pivot now. I label myself the pivot queen. I've pivoted so many freaking times out of law enforcement that I'm like, who the fuck and how did I get back to that? But also, where do you want to go in five years? Where do you see yourself? Now let's work backwards and figure out how the hell we get you there. So there's a lot of steps. There's a lot of steps. 

00:56:36 Cinnamon: I love that. Two things. I worked with an individual who was a retiree and the grief that they were feeling that they weren't even aware of, right? And then in retirement, it was kind of like, should I have even been a first responder? Because look at me now. You know, like it's I'm, you know, 55. And years away from retirement and I don't have any other skills. I don't have a college degree, you know, whatever that is. 

01:00:03 Cinnamon: But I'm going to recap what I believed you said, and then I'm going to add one because it's what popped up into my head when you said list your identities. So I heard you say you rediscover your identity, you redefine a purpose and you reignite their passion. And when you said list your identities, the first thing that popped into my head as a recovering alcoholic was restored. I am restored. So rediscover the identity, redefine your purpose, reignite their passion and restore them into their whole self. And you can have that one. 

01:00:38 Jess: I mean, yeah, you can add that to your marketing. Look at our marketing campaign just went, boop. 

01:00:43  Cinnamon: Yes. And for the low, low price of $19.99 you can buy that URL. Yep. No, but that, I mean, that, it's like, that's your plan and those are your steps. And the restored piece is the final result. It's the product at the end. And that's... I think that has to be so attractive during this time. So if you do this work, you will be whole again. You will be restored.

01:01:14 Jess: In doing that do the work part into people's minds. Like, no, this doesn't just happen. You literally have to do the work. You've got to put in the time, not seven years. I'm not going to make you guys do that. That's torture. But I need you to do the work and be willing to do it again. If you're paying me, I'm your accountability partner here. I'm expecting you to have this done by our next call, because if you're not going to do it, you're not going to do it again. I don't want people throwing money at me just to like have a call. No, I want you to do the work and get yourself better.

01:01:42 Jess: Which is why I just created life after law enforcement preparing for it as a course that just launched yesterday The six pillars of wellness to prepare--

01:01:52 Erin: I'm sorry..

01:01:53 Jess: For this transition--

01:01:54 Erin: More pillars. I just want to say. 

01:01:57 Cinnamon: I need to know your pillars. 

01:01:59 Jess: I have to keep it condensed for people to digest. 

01:02:04 Cinnamon: Okay. Can you tell us what those pillars are without? Okay, I'm ready. 

01:02:09 Jess: I'm gonna share their number. So mental, physical, financial, intellectual, social, and spiritual. 

01:02:18 Erin: Just noticed that they all have spiritual on there. It is not woo. I'm only saying this because do you know Jason Warren? Do you follow him on Instagram? If you don't--

01:02:27 Cinnamon: Do, do. 

01:02:28 Jess: Okay, fair. 

01:02:33 Erin: He is, well, he's the mindfulness medic, but he has these six pillars of healing and he's one of those people that's like, I don't even know. He figured this out on his own without therapy. It just all of a sudden was like, I can't live like this anymore and I gotta do something about it. And oh, wait, if it's to be, it's up to me. So I'm gonna do it. And created this whole thing. But I emphasize that spirituality because as a first responder, as somebody who is used to like, I know what to do. I can handle this. Da da da da da. No one can, if I can't do it, then nobody can. To understand that trusting something bigger than you is going to be such a huge key factor to your healing. 

01:03:15 Erin: We are constantly pushing mindfulness work on our clients. I am a coach too, and they're like, you want me to do what? I'm like, just shut up and do it and see what happens. Can you just trust that I might know what I'm talking about? I didn't create this. This has been around for a long time, but it's getting yourself outside of you because you cannot get yourself out of these challenging situations with identical brain that got you into these situations. Like you need to change the brain, right? You need to change your way of thinking in order for it to work. 

01:03:49 Erin: And so I agree and Cinnamon has to like calm me down a lot when it comes to our clients. Cause sometimes I'm like, "They are not doing the fucking thing. I'm done. I'm sick of wasting my breath." And she's like, "No, it doesn't work this way." I'm like, "But the thing is I-"

01:04:04 Cinnamon: It's not personal. 

01:04:05 Erin: I know it's not, but I'm... For me, it's like, I know it doesn't have to be this hard. Stop making it so hard. 

01:04:11 Jess: But it is also part of the journey. So for me, I look back now and I had to suffer all that time. I had to go through that. And I'm not saying people, and that's why I share my story. I'm like, guys, I did that part for you. Like I suffered the long-term. 

01:04:24 Cinnamon: Right. Here's the plan. 

01:04:27 Jess: I don't need you to suffer for that long because it sucks. And I can try to describe it the most gory way I can. Like it sucked. And here's how you can not do that. This is this is literally your plan. 

01:04:39 Cinnamon: Geez, Jess. Can you can you just run through those one more time? Mental, physical, financial, intellectual--

01:04:46 Jess: Social and spiritual. 

01:04:48 Cinnamon: Social. Okay, I knew I missed one. 

01:04:51 Jess: And I think one of my first slides is even like it's not woo woo stick with me, guys. Like that's one of my first slides, because I know when people hear six pillars of wellness to help me get out of law enforcement, they're rolling their eyes. I think my first paragraph is stop rolling your eyes. We're going to get through this together. Blah, blah, blah. And then in the spiritual section, it's not religious maybe, it is spiritual. It is whatever that you use that is bigger than yourself that you need to lean into at this moment and work through blah, blah, blah. 

01:05:17 Cinnamon: Yeah. I really liked that intro. Mine is, no, I'm not a stripper. I never have been. But I like that idea of starting it off by saying, I already know what you're thinking and I need you to stick with me. And it's that's the power of catching them at the beginning of it and not being obtuse to the fact that they're coming into these with biases and opinions and beliefs and rude jokes, you know. 

01:05:53 Erin: Yeah. But it's also a master tool in negotiation. And so if you've been a detective, like getting all the rebuttals off, like you're probably going to say this, you're probably going to say that. I imagine you're doing this. The book never split the difference. Have you ever read that book, Never Split the Difference, is this guy that he was a hostage negotiator for the FBI and his tools in being an effective leader, essentially. I tell all of our clients that are looking to step up their game to read it because it teaches you how to communicate in a way. And step one is get all the rebuttals. They don't have anything to freaking sit there and fight back with. You're like, yeah, you're right. I am gonna be skeptical, you know? So... good for you. How smart. 

01:06:37 Cinnamon: When you take their butts. 

01:06:36 Erin: Right. When you take their butts. 

01:06:38 Cinnamon: When you take their butts and put them in a basket and set them outside the room. Or just, you know, set them on fire. No. Yeah. But I think also having that at the beginning of your course tells them right up front, I know you. I got your number. Like, I'm not... what I like to, I'm not the HR lady here to talk about diversity, to check off a box. I'm actually about to provide you something meaningful because I know you well enough that I can hit all of these objections and give you a response to that, that rebuttal and move beyond that. So we got all that bullshit out of the way. Now you can focus on learning what I have to offer.

01:07:30 Erin: I'm looking here. Do you have a direct website for Next Shift? 

01:07:41 Jess: Wouldn't that be nice? I am not a techie person and it's one thing I'm determined to learn how to do. And I know I need one. I know I need one. Trust me and believe. So right now it is just social media based. You're like--

01:07:51 Cinnamon: No, you don't. 

01:07:52 Jess: And a business coach has told me you don't need a website. That's the last thing literally. But so many people are like, "You're not professional if you don't have a website."

01:07:59 Erin: Bullsh*t.

01:03:49 Jess: Go to Linkedin.

01:08:00 Cinnamon: Yeah, but nobody actually looks at your website. Like, that's the thing. They never get off social media to go look at the website. 

01:08:07 Jess: It's been so long. As a professional told me I didn't need one, and I'm like, "I don't need one. Go to these links. You can find me. If you're not on LinkedIn, you're a loser anyway." So like just whatever. 

01:08:18 Erin: I'm on there, but I just don't use it. So am I still a loser? 

01:08:21 Jess: So you guys are missing a huge... 

01:08:23 Erin: I know. I can't figure out how... I'm 42. 

01:08:27 Cinnamon: Okay. Yeah, we need to figure out a way. Like she does a lot of our social media. I don't do Instagram. I don't really do anything, but I do have LinkedIn. And if I could get better at that, I know I have a huge community. 

01:08:444 Jess: Here's the thing, I love Instagram. I love the aesthetics of rolling and like, "Oh, I wanna click on that one or that one. I love that. I love the stories. I love being on stories. If you guys follow me, I love it." But LinkedIn, I really just copy my post and put them over there. And the engagement because of the target audience over there, they're not typically on social media. Most cops don't have social media, but the ones looking to transition are on LinkedIn because they're trying to get out. And they're the people that definitely you guys can help because they've got a whole lot of shit to unpack before they move into this next shift, which is also why I created the debrief events that I do. The next one's next weekend.

01:09:22 Jess: Come together virtually guys, I don't care where you are. We're gonna talk amongst each other about shit we've been through, why we're trying to get out, what it looks like, talk to people who have already made that transition and get to know a little insight so that you can keep moving on faster than it took some of us. Debrief, get some of that shit out of your head. And I'm that person, if you say something, I'm gonna tell you, you need to go talk to some professional. I'm not just gonna sit there and take, I'm gonna be like, I'm glad you got that off your chest and you trusted me enough to hear this, but I'm telling you, you need to go seek X, Y, or Z, and I will help you find somebody if I need to, because I now have connections with people who are competent in that field. 

01:10:01 Erin: Well, and we have, obviously you're in Kansas, right? And we're- 

01:10:07 Jess: Missouri, Kansas City, Missouri. 

01:10:08 Erin: Oh, Kansas City, Missouri. Big- 

01:10:10 Jess: The Chiefs and Memorial.

01:10:11 Erin: Big difference, sorry. 

01:10:12 Cinnamon: She's a Mo. She's a Mo. Not a- 

01:10:16 Erin: But we're in Ohio, Cinnamon's also licensed in Kentucky. We have other connections in Kentucky. We have people in Michigan, like we have people that we know. 

01:10:24 Cinnamon: Indiana. 

01:10:25 Erin: For sure know what they're talking about. Indiana, so if there's anything we can ever do to help you and the folks you work with, please let us know. And yes, please, if you can help me off-air with LinkedIn, After the Tone's Drop has a thing, I have a thing, it's like out of sight, out of mind. It's, you know, been challenging enough to do Instagram and TikTok because I'm like, what? So thank you for that little nudge. And also, Cinnamon, I wanna be mindful of time because we did have tech issues. And I don't know how much longer I'm gonna be able to keep my kids out of the office. So...

01:11:07 Cinnamon: And I have an emergency session that we had a pretty big thing. And so I've been handling since Thursday.  Yeah.

01:11:17 Erin: Kind of like first responders, we don't... 

01:11:21 Cinnamon: We're second responders. That's what we should start calling ourselves. 

01:11:24 Erin: Second. 

01:11:25 Cinnamon: We are the people that the first responders call after the critical incident to make sure everybody comes out whole.

01:11:33 Jess: And I will say really quick before we have to go is that Next Shift's mission is right now law enforcement because that's what I know. It's what I've been through. The overall mission is all first responders to include dispatchers because they're often forgot about and they deal with a lot of shit, but also our families because they are definitely the ones who are left behind in our career and even in this transition because we don't know how to effectively communicate with them what the hell we're going through and how how to like deal with that. So eventually big picture that will be all of those people.

01:12:02 Cinnamon: Well, and I am gonna this probably is a new can of worms to open and so well, sorry. My thought is I've watched where when the law enforcement officer or the first responder is male and they work a full time, a part time, overtime, whatever, so their partners can stay home and raise their children. And then now all of a sudden they're in retirement and they're like, "Okay, lady, it's your turn." And how do you have that conversation to limit and lower resentment? I feel like I'm constantly doing bilateral stimulation therapy on resentment. 

01:12:47 Jess: Well, and what really sucks is all of these things we've talked about, if they would just from the academy teach some of this shit and at in-service every single year have like a, "Hey, here's how you communicate," whether you listen or not, you heard the information, whether you absorb it or not, you at least know what you can recall it at some point if you need it. But until we start doing that and literally forcing it throughout careers, it's going to get to the point where they're retired and they don't even know how to live with a significant other because they've been gone so freaking much and they haven't had to help with the kids. 

01:13:16 Jess: And now they're being raised by the mom and her way and all. I'm like, "Holy shit, where were you this whole 20 years?" You have got to learn how to communicate with people this way. This is a much different world than this way when you're dealing with shit bags. There are times when I'm like, my husband's going to work. I'm like, just FYI, I'm not one of your dirt bags. Okay. Let's remember that before you go to work because I want to love you and see you tomorrow. Let's remember. And it's not just, oh, like, I just, I was there once too. I get it. 

01:13:45 Cinnamon: Yeah. And I see a lot of like, wanting to use the therapist as validation that I'm right. And what I have figured out is that right and wrong are kind of irrelevant. It's effective. What are you trying to get to? What's your end game? And if you're not focused on the end game, but rather focused on being right, then you're missing it. And it's also very disrespectful, right? We have to start recognizing what we believe is right is actually just our opinions. And so we run into that when, hey, you've been gone. This is our schedule. This is our routine. This is how we handle these situations. And the we does not include them. 

01:14:35 Cinnamon: And so how do you... You know, even from when you're dating, like how do you agree on here's how we're gonna handle some of these things so they don't come up later and then one person doesn't feel left out and useless and then quits trying and the other person gets resentful. I mean, there's so much work to be done. 

01:14:55 Jess: And that's definitely things that need talked about. I'm different because I was in it. So now we understand that whole dynamic. It's also why I don't hang around with a lot of cop wives because I can't stand the people complaining and bitching about it was a holiday and they weren't here. My husband worked Thanksgiving. It sucked, it still sucks, but I understand it. And I know that he doesn't want to be at work any more than I don't want him to be at work. So I can see that side and I can at least empathize. 

01:15:21 Jess: And to your point, we just want validation, like that we feel heard or that we feel seen. I don't even necessarily want you to tell me I'm right. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But I want to feel heard. I want to be able to get it and then hear a different perspective that helps me think, huh. And that's not challenging. Well, I want it to challenge me, but it's not saying I'm wrong. It's just think about it this way. And that has been, has helped me become so open-minded where I used to be like, if you don't think like me, talk like me, act like me, like we're not gonna ever talk or be friends. 

01:15:49 Jess: When I was a cop, I did not want somebody that thought differently than me or anything. And now I'm like, I could respect how you think that or why you think that or that that's your opinion. Like you got something from that, okay. She has to tell.

01:16:03 Cinnamon:  I like you Jess. You can read, some people may say that I'm animated, right? And then Erin went and like put us on YouTube. So now I'm like constantly monitoring my face. What you're saying is there's a piece that is so obvious but goes unacknowledged. When you do this kind of work, you are in defense mode all the time. So as soon as I say to my first responder spouse, this is how I feel, or this is how we do it, this is how it needs done. It is automatically defense. 

01:16:41 Cinnamon: And so whether that's drawing a gun, defensive fire tactics where you're just trying to put the container, put the fire out, or you're trying to shut down an argument where you are being told or believe that you're being wrong. Emotional and physical, like defense, it's you can't be in fight or flight all the time and not think that you're not going to get somebody that comes home from their shift and either flees to the basement to the lazy boy to watch ESPN with their beer or fights. And so how do we teach couples to communicate so we're not triggering each other? 

01:17:21 Jess: And that's what I've talked about a lot on the podcast is, hey guys, did you just assume that everybody knows how you need them to behave around you? Did you just assume? Or did you say, hey babe, when I come home, I'm gonna need 30 minutes to myself, or hey, it is really important to me that I get an hour at the gym 30 minutes, whatever it is, you know? Did you communicate that, or did you just assume that they knew this? And there's several podcasts out there that talk about, hey, don't assume people know anything. Are they living by the manual you created in your head and never gave them the man? 

01:17:54 Jess: And I was like... God dang, that is so good because how many times do we expect other people to do what we want? And we've never ever, ever told them, Hey, I need this and you said it, I learned in therapy a long time ago. Don't ever be like, you did this and it made me feel this way. Nobody can make you feel the way you're feeling it. But don't start it with you, Erin. You pissed me off when you did this. I felt angry when this happened or when you did this was a lot easier or hey, I'm not really feeling this conversation. Can we maybe come back to that later when I've cooled down and I don't say some shit that I don't wanna say right. It is a big helpful piece. 

01:18:29 Cinnamon: And you can say it like that too. You can just be very clear in your communication. Doesn't have to be all fancy. Doesn't have to be the way the other guy or gal says it. 

01:18:37 Jess: I'm gonna say some shit I don't wanna say right now, so I'm gonna walk away and I'll come back in 30 minutes or some shit. 

01:18:29 Cinnamon: Right, yeah. Well, and that has to be one of those ground rules pre-established because I hear a lot of my female folks, my female clients will say things like, I wanted to walk away and I got stuck in the bathroom or I got, they stood in the doorway. And it's like that commitment to wanting to resolve something. But I'm like, you're treading on domestic violence. And so, yeah. And so how do you agree ahead of time that timeouts are allowed and can be the thing that saves us? Right? 

01:19:18 Cinnamon: I'll tell you when I'm coming back and I will respect what I said and be back to discuss this, but you've got to let me walk away. And when we are angry and defensive, our brain is trying to keep us in survival, right? We want to survive and we don't differentiate between emotional and physical. So I will start flinging things at you that will help ensure my survival. And those may not all be true. 

01:19:48 Jess: And I can attest to words cut deeper and make deeper wounds. I wasn't in a domestic physical relationship, but the mental abuse and the emotional abuse kept me down for years when I was with a cop. I was a cop being a domestic violence victim and didn't even see it. I projected the shit out of it onto people I dealt with on the road. I was like, "What the fuck are you doing? Get out of here." Like, "Hello, Jessica, get out of here." But those words, man, when you can pause and practice that pause, it is going to be a lifesaver for you, your relationship, your family. It will be huge.

01:20:22 Erin: It will be huge. And I get to be the bad guy. And clearly- 

01:20:29 Cinnamon: Every time. She's so evil. 

01:20:30 Erin: I know, I hate to say that. Well, and- 

01:20:32 Jess: We were just getting started. 

01:20:33 Erin: And Jess gets it too, because she does her own podcast and gotta be mindful of everybody's time. 

01:20:41 Cinnamon: But it's always her, so it allows, I have the freedom to just keep it going and then make her the bad guy. But let's be honest, I have an appointment in 30 minutes and I haven't seen my husband yet today, so I guess I need to stop too.

01:20:52 Jess: I'm going to go--

01:20:56 Erin: Well, Jess, we can pick this up on our own time later. Yes, and let's please do that. Because I think that there's a lot of value that we can support each other with moving forward in this process. Like we always say, it takes a village and it's going to take all of us banding together and making this stuff happen to continue the momentum that's already been started. So please let us know how we can support you.

01:21:20 Erin: So Jess Flores with Next Shift, check her out on Instagram, obviously LinkedIn, we know she is very passionate about LinkedIn and now I am too. 

01:21:32 Cinnamon: Find us, find us and send us an invitation so we can get an alert and then we will find our way. 

01:21:37 Erin: I'm like, I don't even know how to log in.

01:21:39 Cinnamon: I will. 

01:21:39 Jess: I'm trying to get an affiliate program with them because I shout them out so much. 

01:21:44 Cinnamon: You should. Yeah, we don't share a brain at all. I mean, we literally tilt our heads the same way.

01:21:49 Jess: Oh, yeah. You guys are killing me.

01:21:54 Erin: So any other social? Facebook? 

01:21:56 Jess: Yes, but I don't use it for this. Not... 

01:21:58 Erin: Okay. Yeah. 

01:21:59 Jess: That's like a family reunion over there and Instagram's a party. LinkedIn's kind of like a mix. 

01:22:03 Erin: Yeah. Okay. Well, definitely check out the Next Shift podcast. If you, you know, just go on a resource page if you're having problems finding it because I have committed to putting her on there. 

01:22:14 Jess: Is that an Ohio joke? The Next Shift is. 

01:22:16 Erin: Yes, it is.

01:22:18 Erin: We have sweatshirts that just say, The. No, our little tagline for our show is the mental health podcast for first responders. Like, don't get it twisted, okay? The freaking Ohioans. That's a whole nother story. 

01:22:36 Cinnamon: My husband does not, he's like, I don't mind Ohio State, I don't like Ohio State fans. So, cut that out. Otherwise we may lose some followers. 

01:22:46 Erin: No, it's him, not you.

01:22:48 Cinnamon: Yeah, that's true. I'm a two-time grad. 

01:22:52 Erin: All right, Jess.

01:22:58 Erin: Thank you for joining us for today's episode of After the Tones Drop. Today's show has been brought to you by Whole House Counseling. As a note, After the Tones Drop is for informational purposes only and does not constitute for medical or psychological advice. It is not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Please contact a local mental health professional in your area if you are in need of any assistance. You can also visit AfterTheTonesDrop.com and click on our resources tab for an abundance of helpful information. And we would like to give a very special thank you and shout out to Vens Adams, Yeti, and Sanda for our show's music.