Breaking the Stigma: With Tommy Bolin

Erin: 
We are here with our new friend, Tommy Bolin.

He is a firefighter in central Ohio. And I'm going to tell you, this man has a story. That, I imagine a lot of you actually relate with, and perhaps you don't know quite what to do about it.

In a few minutes, we're going to get into the interview and hearing more from Tommy. But first, we wanted to share with you an extremely impactful and profound video that Tommy has made called Mayday Mayday Sounding the Alarm About Mental Health Struggles and the Firefighter Community. Tommy has also created an organization called Firefighter Suicide Prevention dot org and you can find this video on that website as well as on YouTube.

So just to kind of give you a little backstory about Tommy's  journey, we wanted to play the audio to that video for you first.

"Tommy's Story"
Did you know that more firefighters die by suicide than they do in the line of duty?
I'm Lieutenant Tom Bolan with Norwich Township Fire Department. I am a 27 year veteran. I'm 52 years old and this is my story.

So we never talked about mental health in the fire service when I first started. Uh, the culture, um, you know, we just, uh, we didn't want to appear weak. We didn't want to let anybody down. And honestly, we were kind of told, you know, early on that if you can't handle it, then you might want to find another career.

I suffered in silence for years. Uh, my anxiety and depression went unchecked for a very long time. Imagine waking up every morning, thinking of suicide, thinking that your family and your friends would be better off if you weren't sober.
I came home from a night of drinking and it was like two in the morning. And I remember grabbing my gun off the top of the refrigerator and going to my basement. And as I'm sitting down there, I decided that, uh, Tonight's the night. Tonight is when I'm going to do it. And as I'm putting pressure on the trigger, I'm praying to God to forgive me and for my family to forgive me for what I'm about to do.

And I was, I was ready to do it. And I don't know if it's the fact that I heard something upstairs coming down the stairs. And I walked down into the basement to see him sitting there kind of asleep with a gun on his chest. He talked with me for a few minutes and after a few minutes, he, he got up. And he walked in and he goes, Hey, why don't you let me take that?

And he took my gun. In the end, I would say the IAFF center of excellence and the support of my wife, um, refusing to give up on me is what really saved my life.

If you're struggling, please know you're not alone. Don't let depression, anxiety, and PTSD define who you are. Please reach out. I suffered alone for so long until I looked back and realized that I wasn't alone and I had a really good support group that cared and loved me. So please reach out, go to our website, find resources, find somebody that you trust, and hopefully together we can break this stigma that surrounds the fire service.

Erin:
All I can really say in this moment is just, wow.

Rate and Review Request Audio

Erin:
You know how Cinnamon and I are social butterflies, and we were at one of our conferences in Northern Kentucky, and Tommy walks up with his beautiful golden doodle,

Tommy: Labradoodle. 

Erin: or labradoodle. I have a golden doodle.

Tommy: Yeah, it's all right

Erin: But yours is golden and mine is black. Isn't that interesting

Tommy: Yeah, 

Cinnamon: his name is Finn.  

Tommy: It's Finny. Yep.

Erin: Yes.  Anyways, Tommy and I started talking and then I suddenly looked down on a, Oh, it was your website. I think I looked at the firefighter suicide prevention. org and I realized Oh my gosh, this man quite literally works seven minutes from my home.

I could probably ride my bike if I really got motivated to the firehouse. So I mean, but you know, it's one of those things we talk about all the time. This no accidents concept in the sense that people are put into our lives at the perfect time and so I basically I have clung to Tommy and said, we're going to be friends, whether you like it or not, we're going to do this thing, 

Cinnamon: Tommy, I feel your pain.

Tommy: Yeah. 

Erin: but yeah. So Tommy's been a big advocate the Columbus area, which also, if you listen to our show folks know that I've been trying to break in to the Columbus area, Tommy, it sounds like maybe you have started doing that. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Tommy: Yeah. And I agree with that too. I think things happen for a reason. It's funny that we met in Kentucky and we both work right there and live in the same area. So. Even the gentleman that put that on down there, was from 

Cinnamon: Phil, yes. 

Tommy: he, works in, yeah, Phil and he works in Kentucky now. So it's pretty awesome. So I've been trying to connect with him too. but yeah, it's been a journey for me. like when I grew up, I think I dealt with a little bit of depression, anxiety growing up and joining the fire service. A lot of people don't understand.

And honestly, it's really not just the fire service. It's all public service. we take on a whole different animal when we join. not only do we deal with the stresses of life, family, kids, money, whatever that may look like for you. But when we joined the service, we take on a whole new, aspect of it with the chronic stress, the sleep deprivation, which is huge.

the unresolved traumas. And I think. Over time, mine wasn't just one traumatic event or don't get me wrong. I've had a lot of really, traumatic events, a lot of children, that I've had and they're horrific events, but my issues I believe was cumulative over time, it got to the point to where I would have these little episodes of depression.

 My wife would see it, but then it would get better because I just had these outbursts and I never really,took care of them and every time it would get worse and worse and worse. And just over time, I think it got to the point to where I just couldn't deal with it no more. And I thought the only way out was suicide.

And, back in 2019, I came very close to taking my life and that's on my video that we did, on my website. But, I have a website now It's actually called firefighter suicide prevention because when I first got into it, I'm a firefighter So I wanted to help my fellow brothers But I'm thinking about changing the name of the website now to m2m help mess to message help Because I really want to reach not only firefighters.

I want to reach firefighters police officers military, correctional officers all public servants honestly because it's not just a firefighter thing it's everywhere and we're just losing, too many of our brothers and sisters to suicide. And it's just, it's unacceptable to me.

We never talked about it when we were younger. when I first got in the fire service, it was more of a, if you can't deal with it, you might want to find another career. And that was a terrible way to deal with it. we just, we never talked about it. now we're seeing raw data statistics that are showing that we're losing more firefighters to suicide, more police officers to suicide than line of duty deaths combined. They still believe a lot of that goes unreported. I've talked to, I don't know if you guys heard of the Firefighter Behavioral Health Alliance, Jeff 

Cinnamon: Jeff Dill. 

Tommy: Yeah, I've talked to Jeff on multiple cases. Awesome guy. He's doing a lot of really great things with, firefighter, suicide prevention and mental health.

And, they still believe that like 30% of this goes underreported. and this year alone, I just wrote some statistics down 41 firefighter and EMS personnel and 93 law enforcement in June. I mean, we're halfway there. And it's just crazy to me when we see people die in the line of duty, like let's say not from suicide, Horrific event.

I've never been involved in one of them. I hope I never do. I really do. but when we see these kinds of things, we come up with these reports on how do we keep from doing this? How do we keep from making these same mistakes? We come up with different drills and different tactics, but as soon as we find out people commit suicide, we just don't talk about it.

We just never talked about it, And it's, Like I said, I think it's just unacceptable. It's kind of like that elephant in the room we just never talked about because of the embarrassment, 

Erin: why do you think that is? okay, 

Tommy: the embarrassment, I believe,there's several things that are killing us. the stigma, first of all, denial and our own pride and egos. Honestly, when we're struggling, We kind of downplay it in our profession because we're the helper fixers. That's what we do. And when we come out and say the helper fixers need help and fixed, we wonder how like our administration will look at us.

We wonder how the people we lead will look at us, our brothers and sisters. And you just don't want to appear weak. And the funny thing is I've learned over time, that vulnerability. It's not weakness. it takes more courage to come out and actually say, Hey, I'm struggling and I need help than it does to just suppress it for all these years until finally, I got to the point to where I thought the only way out was a, was a gun.

And, luckily, by the grace of God and by my son walking down on me that night, which I had a hard time forgiving myself for that, but I finally have, I'm here to spread a, story of hope through my struggles with depression, anxiety. And then I got diagnosed with PTSD back in 2019. So,

Erin: Mm-hmm. 

Cinnamon: Tommy, you mentioned in what you were saying that, The common phrase I don't want to say back in the day because don't think You know We're not talking like organ trail back in the day. 

Tommy: right.

Cinnamon: but if this is bothering you if you can't handle this like you may need to find another profession and so That right there.

If I love my job, if I have dreamed my whole life of doing this job, if I can't see myself doing any other job or even what I would do if I had to get another job, I mean that seems like a pretty damn good reason to not tell anybody that things are bothering you.And we talk about law enforcement, having, these high stakes where we might see, less forthcomingness in a lot of their numbers, because of police powers being taken, service weapon being taken, however that looks.

But for you guys, it's maybe not that same exact thing, but it's still your entire career and as we've talked before, it's that entire identity. So do you feel like you're hearing that part 

Tommy: I do. I think it's changing slowly. we're far from there. I mean, it's changing slowly. I'm hoping within the next five years, we really do need a cultural change when it comes to all this stuff. And that's why not only go around the firehouses and lecture on, my journey and stuff and, learning how to be resilient, but also go to schools.

 I've been lecturing to, recruit classes and, fire and, paramedic schools. And really just trying to let them know that, I know it gets beat up all the time, but it's so true. It's okay to not be okay. It's okay to deal with your issues. it took me a long time to realize that now that I have, I look back and I say, man, I wish I had done this years ago. There for a five year period, I was in pretty bad shape. I was,I was in pretty bad shape. And... 

Erin: Can you be specific on the bad shape? Now, you don't have to go into like the real nitty gritty, but I want folks to hear what you were going through. 'cause that's where they might were relate.

Tommy: Yeah. it got to the point to where I was really isolating a lot, isolating from my family, isolating in my department. I was still going to do my job, but there was a period there where, I had just lost all hope. I lost all purpose in life. my confidence level was, yeah.

And, for a long time there, there was probably a little bit of a time where I probably shouldn't have been riding in charge of a fire truck. Honestly, I'm a lot better now. I went to Baltimore, Maryland back in 2019 and that started my road to recovery. They kind of taught me why I was doing the things I was doing.

They gave me the tools to continually get better. And I like to tell people that when I got out of there, I wasn't fixed, they just gave me the tools and the road and the path I had to trust in the process and I did that and I continually get better and I can honestly tell you now that, I'm living my best life right now, this whole thing with me going out and speaking, I have really checked my pride, my ego.

I don't care what people think about me anymore. you could call me weak, you could call me whatever you want. I don't care. it's kind of like that old saying that if I could help one person, it's totally worth it for me. but we really do need a cultural change. And when I go and lecture these classes, I tell them, it starts right here in this room.

you guys right here are the new generation. We need to normalize this stuff. We need to be able to sit around the kitchen table and talk about these issues, instead of letting it. accumulate, you know, kind of backing up a little bit when I was talking about not only the normal stresses of life, but the things that we also deal with in public service.

The three biggest killers of firefighters, and I know it's probably right there with the police too, is, cancer, heart disease, and suicide. And if you go back and look at statistics, if you Google, statistics on this, just having chronic stress, And, sleep deprivation alone leads to higher chances of cancers, heart disease, and suicide.

It's not a coincidence. We always talked about the cancer issues of all these. chemicals that we deal with in these fires and stuff. Yes, I'm sure that has a big part of it. But I think the other aspect of it is we're also dealing with a lot of these unresolved traumas and chronic stress.

And the sleep deprivation is just huge on your body and your mind. I mean, I, I don't know how many firefighters you talk to is like, Yeah, I'm on. I'm on blood pressure medication. I got hypertension. I got hypertension. I went with a lot of years of not taking care of myself and the chronic stress and the sleep deprivation has reaped havoc on my body.

I'm in stage three kidney failure. I got a long way to go before I, had to be on dialysis. I just got to keep an eye on it. But, because of that chronic stress I wouldn't take care of my body or my hypertension. Now I got kidney issues. So that's what I tell everybody when I go out and lecture, not only do we have to take care of our physical health, we have to take care of our minds too. It's so important. It goes hand in hand, you know. 

Cinnamon: Tommy, we actually have, and I'd love for you to tell us if you think it's helpful, but for our private practice. we actually have a resource page on whole house. com and one of the PDFs that we have attached on there is stress hormones and what the purpose of it is, as well as what happens and what you are more susceptible to when your body does not get a reprieve from those stress hormones.

We know it can take over 24 hours for stress hormones to process out of your body. And, one of the things that we see popping up under, nearly every single stress hormone is high blood pressure and susceptibility to heart disease. And

so kind of tying back to what you said, Your physical health and your mental health so intertwined that To be able to take care of your physical health and not just to pop a pill to keep that blood pressure Below the dangerous range, you've really got to take a look at what those stress hormones are the havoc they're wreaking on your body and How okay one might be with not removing or addressing some of those stresses, but just popping that high blood pressure pill.

Tommy: It's easy to pop the pill, instead of looking at the root crawls. and that's why I try to tell everybody is, normal stress. I mean, little bits of stress is normal. It helps you to overcome adversity. It helps you to cope with things. But our bodies are not built for being in that constant fight or flight stressful mode.

like you said, the chemicals and stress hormones. And, I mean, how many firemen have you talked to are on testosterone therapy because of the sleep deprivation? I mean, I was for a long time. I was on testosterone therapy as well. I finally got off of it just because I think it was really kind of messing with my mind.

And it wasn't real great for my hypertension either. So we're trying to combat all this stuff instead of trying to just take care of our minds and take care of our bodies and do it the natural way, I'm just as bad about it. I get to get busy and I might grab a fast food sandwich or something like that.

And I understand that. I get it. I'm all about mindfulness. I'm all about, finding those things that help you ground yourself in the moment and live in the moment, honestly. And that's the biggest thing I tell people, if you could just figure out. how to just live in the moment and forgive yourself of the things that you've done in the past and stop stressing about things that hadn't even happened yet.

 Cause that's where I was at for a long time. I was drinking a lot, and I was drinking for all the wrong reasons. I was drinking to cope, I was drinking to sleep, just to feel normal and it was a vicious cycle. I would drink because I was depressed and then I would do some really stupid stuff and then my, anxiety would kick in because of the things that I did.

And I'm worried about what I did to people, you know, I've lost some relationships through all this, some friends and stuff because I was at the point in my life where I was so miserable. I was so alone. I really felt like I was going crazy. And, I was very codependent on everybody else for my happiness, my wife, my kids, my job, my friends.

And, you feel that need to be wanted. and needed and accepted and worthy. And, when you're dealing with it, with these bad habits, like alcohol and stuff like that, you tend to get them in the wrong areas. That makes sense. You tend to do some really, self destructive stuff.

 And, my wife and kids are forgiving me. I've learned to forgive myself so that I can move on. it's been very hard. It's been a very hard journey. but I'm there. it's still a constant battle see, that's why I tell people when I lecture too is I still deal with all this.

I still have the depression. I still have the anxiety. I still have the PTSD. I've just learned how to cope with it. I've learned how to deal with it and live a healthier and happier life. And it's been awesome for me. And,my issues for years, really robbed me of my, joy.

Not only with my family and my kids and it robbed my kids and my wife from years of joy and happiness to just because of them dealing with my issues as well. So if I can do it, anybody can do it. 

Cinnamon: I have a couple questions based on the first one that I wanted to ask is, you had said that you became codependent on your family, your wife, your kids, your friends for your happiness. You have that awareness now, but what exactly did it look like in that moment and what would happen to you and how would you behave when they didn't?

Like when they didn't give you that happiness the way you started to just believe that is the way that it should be happening. And then they failed, so to speak. Like, what does that look like? Because I think there's a lot of first responders out there, and definitely a lot of first responder spouses, who hear that and, whether or not it resonates with them, I feel like your answer, of what that looked like and how it felt and how you behaved, is gonna give a lot more insight than just the idea that you were codependent on other people for their happiness.

Like, you know how to use that language now. But back before that language was introduced, what was that experience?

Tommy: it was very depressing, lonely. how do I put it? I, I don't blame my wife. I don't blame my friends. I don't blame any of them I just needed that acceptance. I needed the, attention to, just feel needed and wanted be to feel worthy to feel. I don't know if either you hear that thing of walking into a room of crowded people and feeling totally alone.

And that was me. And when I'd walk in, I would do that every once while I'd walk into like crowded rooms at retirement parties and stuff. And I would just go sit in the corner and I focus so much on the fact that, Hey, nobody come over and talk to me. Nobody even sees me, and that would really destroy me, and I would take that with me and I would.

Stress on it so much for days and weeks. and it was like that with everything. if I didn't get that, reassurance or that, Hey, you're doing a good job or, Hey, we love you. Or, and like I said, I don't blame my wife at all. she is a saint, for putting up with everything I did.

Honestly, she's my rock. If it wasn't for her. I don't know if I'd be here today, honestly, but, in my head, because of all the things that I was going through with my depression, with my anxiety, I had a great story. it was everybody else. it was her fault. She's not getting me the attention that I want.

She's not being the loving wife that I need, even though she was, in my head back then, I was thinking that I I wasn't getting it and that she loved me, but she just didn't, it was just, it was always our marriage. It was always my job or the people, whatever it might be.

And, that, that was kind of like my world for a long time until I actually looked inside myself and said, Hey, listen, you're the only one that's responsible for your happiness. you can't, dictate what people say to you, how people treat you. The only thing that you can do in life is how you react to those situations.

That's the only thing you have control over. And until I finally learned that,I was a mess. Like I said, I was drinking to cope. I was suicidal. I was depressed all the time. I was making some very bad decisions, ruining friendships, ruining, I almost lost my marriage. I mean, it got to the point to where, my wife, she stuck with me and she loved me, but there was a point where she's like, I can't do this no more.

you have to go, we have to figure something out because I can't do this no more. and I understand it now. I understand where she was coming from, but in that moment, I was just blaming everybody else but myself. So was that the answer you were looking for?

Cinnamon: Yeah, I think so. To recap what I heard in that answer, because I think we do see... what you described, we see very frequently, but it came down to the four components that I heard you looking for is that attention, acceptance, reassurance, and validation. And all of those things are external, right?

Like we think of those as external things. We don't think about giving ourselves attention. prioritizing ourself. We don't think about Accepting the reality of where we are, That's part of that ego barrier Is that it's everyone else. It's not me and then that reassurance that i'm okay And that you love me But I still don't feel okay, so i'm gonna need more But at some point they're gonna stop reassuring you that everything's fine And they're gonna say you gotta go and then the last one was that validation Which you are probably looking for validation of inappropriate unhealthy behaviors Which is going to get harder and harder to come by from friends, co workers, loved ones, family, whatever and we probably spend the most time Validating ourselves saying like I'm fine.

It's everyone else, but then it becomes a problematic type of validation We're validating problematic behaviors. 

Erin: I was gonna say unfortunately, we can't love people hard enough to get them to the point where they love themselves. of course, love wins, in the big scheme of things, but that doesn't mean that just because we have the love of our spouse or our family members, that we will then suddenly and miraculously begin to love ourselves and see ourselves as worthy and whole and worth it.

And that is the challenge. and you're right. The only thing we can be responsible for is what's inside of our hula hoop. everything outside of that is out of our control, but that's the hardest thing. The things inside our hula hoop are sometimes the hardest things to accept, to look at, to take responsibility for, because God forbid we admit, maybe I'm the common denominator here.

Like I see that I'm the common denominator in all these relationships and everywhere I go and if that's the case, then maybe it's me. Nah, let's just keep thinking it's everybody else because that's like a whole nother level of personal responsibility to take on. The hardest part. But if we want that change to happen, it's like maybe I just get to look at what I'm doing, like my side of the street 

Cinnamon: Tommy kind of what Erin was saying is Being a helper or a fixer. Y'all have great ideas and if somebody else is the problem you can give suggestion after suggestion because you're just directing that show, but when you take that personal responsibility of The thing I can fix, the source of the issue, is me.

Then that has to go beyond direction. conducting the orchestra and telling everybody where to move on the soundstage, that's going to require the actual buckling down and doing the work. And you had mentioned when you went to Baltimore, what I would say Upper Marlboro, Maryland, because I think you're referring to Center for Excellence,  you talked about you were given the tools.

So what were some of the tools that you were given that maybe you still use today to put that attention on yourself, give yourself that reassurance, find that inner validation and self acceptance?

Tommy: Yeah. Well, first, I believe I had let, 25 years of chronic stress, chronic trauma, exposure, sleep deprivation, high stress situations take its toll on me to where when this first started happening, , Back when I was 40, when I started to kind of show more and more of my depression and my anxiety, my wife she's like, Hey, why don't you go talk to somebody?

What do we do? We call EAP. That's what we do. We call EAP. Great people. I'm sure they had, all the right intentions, but they don't understand the world we live in. They don't understand what firefighters and police officers, they didn't deal specifically with us. So going there for an hour a week and then trying to unpack 25 years of stuff and then coming back the next week and having 30 minutes to recap the week before and then 30 minutes to unpack some more of that 25 years, it just wasn't working for me.

And it got to the point to where I had to go extreme. I had to totally disconnect. from society, honestly. And that's what Maryland does for you. You go there. I was there for 31 days, I believe. And, just getting away. I mean, they take everything from you. They take your phone, your luggage. I mean, you are totally disconnected from everybody.

And I needed that to focus on myself. I needed that intense 30 day program just to totally decompress and totally disconnect. from my life outside of the firehouse and my family and all that kind of stuff. So first and foremost, I think that was huge for me was just the fact that you can't just unpack stuff from 25 years of this stuff in an hour session, and while I was there, the first week was pretty rough for me, you know, it was still raw.

Erin: Well, that and you didn't have your, your tools, your tools were to rely on others and they're like, no, we're taking all of that away. So you're like, it's just me with me. 

Tommy: Yeah. Yeah.and one of the other things, not only the classes were awesome. They taught me why I was doing, they taught me how I was being codependent on everybody else, why I was doing the things I was doing. But honestly, one of the biggest things I got from Maryland was usually after dinner, we would go out and set up the fire pit.

And there was sometimes anywhere between 15 to 30 of my brothers and sisters sitting there talking about our issues and realizing that I wasn't alone. that there are so many people that are going through this just like me. And, that was huge for me. That was huge for me just knowing that I honestly felt like I was going crazy.

Like, just being around my fellow brothers and sisters and understanding that I wasn't alone was big for me, but they taught me a lot of different tools, of just kind of some mindfulness stuff,taking responsibility for your life and your actions and stuff like that.

And there was just a lot of really good people there that deal. Strictly with firefighters and understand us and understand where we live in. And it was just, it was an awesome experience. when I first went there, I'm not gonna lie to you. I was terrified. I was afraid of what my life was going to look like after this.

I was worried, about, how people were going to perceive me. Were they going to think I'm weak? Are the guys I lead, are they going to want to follow me? these are all the things that go through your mind. And after I got out of there, you know, it was totally different. the funny thing is I got a story when I was getting ready to go to Maryland, I went to my chiefs and I said, Hey, listen, do you mind?

If before you put it on the calendar that I'm going to be off for 30 days because if you don't tell people what you're doing in the fire service, if they see you off 30 days, they're gonna make your mind up. Tommy got Caught doing something, so I went in and I caught my guys at roll call and I said, Hey fellas, I said, I'm struggling really bad.

And they had no idea because we hide it real well. We suppress it. my wife, the funny, it's not funny, but that video that I have, my wife had no idea I had a gun to my head until she saw the video. I never told her. My son never told her because we hide this stuff. We don't want to burden other people. We don't want to appear weak and that's what we do. We're fixers, we're helpers. So I came in that morning at roll call and I talked to my guys and I said, Hey fellas, I'm struggling really bad.

And like I said, they had no clue. And, I said, my drinking is out of control. my depression and my anxiety is out of control. I'm going to Baltimore, Maryland, to get some help. I'm going to be gone for probably at least 30 plus days. And then that moment, honestly, something amazing happened. one of my guys looked at me, said, Hey boss, we love you.

Go get the help you need, get back to us. And all five of them came up to me and they hugged me and they said, Hey, we love you. Get back to us. We need you back here. And in that moment, I wasn't their boss. I was their fellow brother and I was struggling and they knew it and they had my back.

And I truly believe that this is how most interactions would go. I really do believe that. so yeah, we have this, thing in our mind of how we think things are going to go. And they usually go the opposite direction. Firefighters are, we're carrying people. This is why we do this job.

We're here to help people. We love to be servants of people and we don't understand that we can be vulnerable. We can talk about our issues because we really do have a bigger support group than what we realize. And if you really are vulnerable and you talk to people, you'll be surprised of how things will go.

Honestly, I think most of us will be very open and understanding and help you with whatever you need. So it was an awesome experience. And that's what I've seen moving through a lot of this other stuff. Now I'm helping people, once people come out and talk about their issues, there are so many people that will come out of the woodwork now and be like, man, we had no idea we're here for you, brother.

We're here to help you. We're here for you, sister. We'll help you. we'll help you with whatever you need. And, we just need to learn to check our pride and egos and ask for help. It's okay to ask for help. We're only human, you know. 

Cinnamon: I'm not sure if this is a question or a statement, but do you think that, what we would call like the ball busting, like the joking manner, ideally, it's usually not about anything serious.  So I guess this is an opinion 

And a check in with you of what your thoughts are, but I feel like sometimes that ballbusting gets misconstrued as What the reaction will be if it is actually a serious matter if i'm mocking or teasing you about something that It doesn't look like you're necessarily having that hard of a time with or you're not the first person in the house That's gone through this then, We're gonna tease you a little bit and then when something serious happens that person is like i've seen How in that moment people talk to each other?

And I don't want that same reaction when I drop this way bigger bomb Of what I'm going through. Do you feel like there's that disconnection there between the typical, camaraderie? there's gotta be another word other than ball busting. But, you know what I mean.and we're trying to lay that same reaction and therefore a fear of that reaction onto more serious matters.

Tommy: 100%. I think there's two different types of, as you say, ball busting. There's the fun, the joking around and then there's the other side where it's personal, where it goes into that personal ball busting. And, we've, as firefighters and I'm sure police military, we always love to joke.

 I mean, we're family. we live with each other for 24 hours every three days. So. we do a lot of, practical jokes and having fun with each other. it's kind of funny cause early in my career, I was, they used to call me tinderbelly Tommy cause I was that guy.

I always wore my heart on my sleeve, onion skin. I wore my heart on my sleeve and sometimes it just felt like it went personal. Like it wasn't just your typical ball bussing. It went personal and I would always get upset and I would, I'd want to fight, you know? And, I remember one time they were, busting my butt about something and I just got mad and I went out in the bay and ate.

And, one of my good buddies, the next time we had a meal, they sent me a table up out in the bay, just to. So it was all, I mean, looking back, it was really funny, but at the time I'm like, I'm mad, I'm pissed and I just couldn't get over it because, and they would poke and poke.

Yeah, if they know they get to you, they'll continue to poke and poke. But when you get to the point to where people are struggling, that just adds a whole nother. level of, depression and anxiety on top of that, and there is a fine line there, and you could usually tell, the thing is when I was going through a lot of my issues, and I would say probably between 2017 to 2019 is when things got really bad for me.

I was throwing up all kinds of red flags. I never went to anybody and said, hey, listen, I'm struggling or, hey, I'm thinking about killing myself, But I would isolate a lot, and my moods would change. I would just be more angry, and like the little things, the ball busting stuff, I would just get more angrier at things instead of just letting it roll off.

And I was throwing up all kinds of red flags, but nobody was really catching them. nobody was really, saying, Hey man, are you okay? Is everything okay? It was more of a, man, why are you isolating so much? You need to get out of your room. you need to go train your guys. You need to do this, or stuff like that.

And I understand it from the outside looking in. That's probably what it looked like. But, now seeing all that and learning all this over the years. I always give people the benefit of the doubt first, and that's the thing we need to watch out for, we need to watch out for those changes in behaviors.

We need to look at for those changes and have something in place to be able to deal with that when these things happen. And I, as an officer now, you need to inspire people to want to follow you. You can't just get that, bugle on your neck and go, man, now you will follow me.

You will respect me. It's not how it works. So I try to inspire people to want to follow me. And honestly, when they mess up now, I usually don't have to say anything. They'll come to me and they'll be like, Hey boss, I messed up. Won't happen again. I'm like, good. That's all we needed.

We're good. And that usually takes care of it. But if somebody really does screw up, when I come and talk to them, my first question is always, Hey, how's things going? Are you okay? this is not you. This is totally different. and I've had people that's happened and I've come to them and they were struggling.

There was things in their life that, that weren't going good for them. And a lot of that just stemmed from, their outside life and things they were dealing with either at home or even mentally. And so as leaders, we have to understand we need to look out for those red flags and we really need to give people the benefit of the doubt and talk to them.

 you know, we're not just bosses. I mean, we're coaches too. we have to inspire these people. We need to inspire them to want to follow us. and that's what leadership is all about. this whole. Authoritarian leadership has got to go away. now don't get me wrong if you do everything right in the firehouse.

And like I said, you inspire people to follow you. When you get on the fire account, there does need to be that little bit of authoritarian leadership because when stuff hits the fan, we need things done and we don't have time to, discuss this stuff. We need to get it done. So, but if you do everything right on this end with the guys in the firehouse, which is about probably 90% of our jobs or maybe 75% of our jobs, once we get to these, oh shit situations, they understand that and they're going to follow you and they're 

Erin: And, they're gonna want to because they respect you and...

Cinnamon: trust you, 

Tommy: Trust. You got to earn their trust first. And if you don't earn their trust, my whole thing is when I got promoted, I never wanted to jeopardize my integrity to get promoted because if people don't trust you, why do you even want to be a leader? If people don't want to follow you, why do you even want to be a leader? You know?

Cinnamon: That's a good question for a lot of folks. What is your motivation for, the promotional process? Do you just want to be in charge or do you want to be a leader?Which, if there's leaders, then that means there's followers and you're leading them. You're not dictating. I hear more often than I would like to.

I'd pull him out of a fire, but I wouldn't piss on him to put him out. And, so it's like, I'll give my life for you through my work, but I think so little of you that I wouldn't urinate on you to put you out if you were on fire. That, to me, says so much about someone's leadership.

And also, someone's commitment to this job. I would give my life for someone that I don't like to the degree that in another setting, I wouldn't save their lives.

Tommy: And that's the thing. we have those troubled children every once in a while. We do, and we deal with them accordingly. we have things in place to, deal with that kind of stuff. But my first reaction is always, Hey, how are you doing? Is everything okay?

is your family life okay? What's going on? and I think that's just so important. especially in our job. the fire service. It's just a totally different. don't get me wrong. It's the best job in the world. I love everything about it. And when I lecture, I tell everybody, you know, the funny thing is when I leading up to it about all the chronic stress and depression and the sleep deprivation, everything I tell them, I like, Hey, now that I've talked to everybody into walking away from the fire service, let me tell you something.

It's the best job in the world. I love everything about it. I love the camaraderie. I love the brotherhood. I love the sisterhood. I love going out every day, not knowing what we're gonna get and overcoming those challenges. It's a very rewarding career. The only thing I would have dealt differently with is how I would have handled my mental health through this 28 years. I would have dealt with it earlier other than letting it go you know, for 28 years or 25 years. 

Cinnamon: I have a question. 

Tommy: go ahead. Shoot. 

Cinnamon: you probably wish I wouldn't have taken notes, but I'm like you said So what What you had said just now was I wish I would have taken care of this 28 years ago but if we rewind all the way back to the beginning of our interview what you said was I dealt with depression and anxiety growing up. I love me some adverse childhood experiences. And so what we know is we have higher rates of ACE scores, So adverse childhood experiences. We have higher rates among our first responders than we do the general population. And I found it interesting that you said, I would dealt with it differently But not all the way back.

So if I challenged you to say What would you have done differently, or would have liked other people to do differently when you were struggling growing up with depression and anxiety, rather than just pinpointing this,  like, that was okay to deal with, but this 20, eight years ago, I would have rather done it differently.

What would you have liked to have seen peers, teachers, parents, other adults, yourself, other family members, what would you have liked to have seen done differently? Granted, it's gonna be a very different generation, I get that, but what would have been helpful?

Tommy: right. That is a great question because honestly, I probably wouldn't have dealt with it differently because it wasn't accepted back then. Weakness wasn't accepted. dealing with your issues wasn't accepted and that's what I'm trying to 

Erin: Talking about feelings wasn't accepted.

Cinnamon: are our feelings. And you sure shouldn't be showing

Tommy: right, yeah, So I guess, to answer your question, I wish it would have been more acceptable back here to talk about, and that's what I'm trying to change. That's what you're trying to change. That's what we're all in this together trying to change. We're trying to change as culture. To make it more acceptable to people to come forward, people to understand that they're not going to lose their job I mean, police, you're not going to lose your badge.

You're not gonna lose your gun. We need to make it more acceptable to come out and talk about it without thinking there's going to be any kind of, punitive thing to it. And so I guess looking back, I probably wouldn't have changed anything because it wasn't acceptable back then to do it. and now we need to be better.

 We need to be better at making it, there's kitchen table conversations of, it's okay. Let's talk about it. It's okay. I went through it and now I want to help you not to go through what I went through. So when I say, I wish I would have dealt with it better. I wish we would have had a better culture back then. I wish we would have been able to discuss this stuff. 

Cinnamon: which is why you're changing the culture now.

Tommy: correct. And that's that's been my focus here lately. It's just, we, so badly need this cultural change.

Erin: yeah, well, it's so interesting because II know this young man and he is from a generation of firefighters. And what I find interesting is this young man is very committed to, I am clear that the things I see are part of the job and it is what it is. And even though we're saying, 

Hey, podcast. That's very excellent. And he's like, no, no, because. Of growing up in this generational fire service world. And, so, I'm like, but you don't get it, you're younger and the things are changing and you could be the change too.

It's like, but my dad. Would never, and I'm not saying that he's saying that this is how I'm interpreting What are you saying? what I'm hearing is, but my dad wouldn't get it. And so therefore I get to man up

just like he did in the fire service. And I'm like, please, but we'll see what happens. You know, but that's, what's hard to

Tommy: it is very hard. 

Erin: These folks that come through generations of first responders.

Tommy: Yeah. You bring a lot of baggage I mean, I had, relatives that were in the fire service and,some of my mentors and he'll probably know I'm talking about if he sees this, but he's changed his tune too. back in the day it was, if you committed suicide or if you let your feelings be shown, you're a week, suicide It was a coward's way out. And that's what I thought for so long, until I was there. And honestly, on the outside looking in, I could see how that would look. And that's what I tell people I don't wake up every morning and say, Hey, listen, I'm going to start my day off with a bad case of depression or I'm going to start my day off with a bad case of anxiety.

 I mean, how stupid does that sound? I would never wish this on anybody. And for people that don't understand that on the outside looking in, I can understand why they might think that way, but I tell people, just because you don't see it and you don't understand, it doesn't make it any less real.

It was real for me. And it might be real to that person sitting beside you. And if you downplay all this kind of stuff, you're just gonna keep them from even wanting to come out and talk about it. and that was the thing that I grew up with too, was, men didn't cry. we didn't show weakness.

we knew what we signed up for. And we did, we knew what we signed up for, but that doesn't mean we can't deal with it. Cause we see crazy things throughout our careers things that general public will never see in their lives. And I actually read a study not too long ago that says that, most firefighters and police officers would see anywhere between 150 to 160.

I think it was traumatic events throughout their career. The normal lawyer or whoever it might be, we'll see one to three. And I use this analogy, and you guys can use it if you want, I might get in trouble for using it, but, last year when DeMar Hamlin went down on the field, for the Bills, horrible event, traumatic event.

 Thank God it was a great outcome, and he's doing some awesome things for the community, for everybody, honestly, being an advocate for all that stuff. I'm not talking about if one of my firefighters went down. That would be horrible. I hope I will never, ever have an incident like that. But now they're looking, if you Google it, you're starting to see this combined trauma from all these people in the stands that are dealing with the witness of this event.

And that could be a Thursday for us. Does that make sense? I mean, we might have two or three of those in one day. 

Erin: We actually talked about this exact thing on episode. I thought it was our first hotline caller. I actually took all of this out because we were watching Some of our first responders we know like, they're getting these people help in the stands. What a bunch of pussies, why are, what about us? Like, they're getting all these folks help. And I'm like they have never seen anything like that for them to 

Tommy: No, for them, that was very traumatic. Yeah, it was very traumatic for them. And like I said, this could be a Thursday for us, you know, and it just kind of puts things in perspective of the kind of things that we see, you 

Cinnamon: Tommy, you said one to three traumatic events for a normie. And what was the number you said for first responders? a lifetime. 

Tommy: So it was a study on police officers, but I guarantee a police fire go hand in hand. It was like they see anywhere. I think it was between 150 to 160

Cinnamon: Thank you.

Tommy: events in their career.

Erin: we'll have to get access to all of your resources because they sound just very

Tommy: Yeah. I'll look it up and I'll send it to you. because I actually usually save all that stuff just so I'm not, I can back it up, but

Erin: Right.

Cinnamon: you said something in the beginning about when we have these traumatic events or we have a line of duty death We take a look at them. We examine them we Improve on where the gaps were we train On filling those gaps, and we just don't do that when it comes to this, so if you were to have like a critical incident report or a NIOSH report what would you want to see in it?

Tommy: Well, the problem with that is there's probably going to be a lot of personal information that, we don't want to put in that, you know,

Cinnamon: So let's say that nobody else sees it. let's kind of like make it so we're not necessarily breaking confidentiality or putting everybody is Business out there. But what do you think would be the components? That would need to be included, questions that may have need to have been asked, things that should have been perhaps seen prior, that like all those red flags like you talked about that that got missed or misunderstood.

Tommy: Yeah. And I think you've hit it right on the head. I personally feel like we would need to interview chiefs, lieutenants. their co workers and just see if there's any kind of changes in behaviors and how we can, be better realizing these changes. We're looking for these changes in behaviors the thing is, Somebody might have just had a bad night and they come in the next day and they're grumpy and they go isolate in their room and that's okay.

But once they do this for like two or three or four or five shifts, now we have a change in behavior. Now we really need to look at this and say, man, is this something else than just having a bad day or something like that? Is there something going on at home? Is there something going on in their personal life?

 Is there something going on here that we don't know about? I would like to see things out there, even like a checklist. Like. Have things in place that if you see a change in behavior, this is what we're going to do. but the people that, talk to you has to be somebody you trust first and foremost, cause they're not going to come and say something to somebody if they have no respect for them, if that has to be somebody you trust.

and that's what I tell people is if you're struggling, reach out to somebody you trust, you still have to be careful even today on who you vent to. Who you tell. because some people, I hate to say it, don't have your best interest in mind, So it has to be somebody you trust.

So you still have to keep that guard up a little bit. The thing about Suicide is it's not mandatory reporting. We don't have to report it the firefighter behavioral health alliance they actually got and they talk to people they go and they hear it through this or this and they go out and they confirm it and that's how it gets on the website and I would like to see mandatory reporting,for suicide.

 I'm trying to right now I've talked to some legislators and I keep hitting brick walls, but I would like to see more training in fire schools. I would like to see more training in, just mental health awareness and resources that are out there because 2019, I had no idea where to turn to.

I didn't even know anything about the IFS interactions, had no clue. I would like to see those more available to people. but it's like hitting my head against a brick wall trying to get some of this curriculum changed. And when I go out and talk to these schools, it's because I've been invited.

It's not because it's mandatory. You might have one little section in the book that says, Hey, if you're dealing with mental health, blah, blah, blah. And then you move on, we need to have 

Cinnamon: that's funny that, you say that because I want to say in like I was actually invited into the Academy and there was nothing at the time. that was being offered and yet when the instructor brought it to The let's just call it the board that runs it They said, no, they said, no, no, no, no, no, we gotta vet, we gotta find out, we gotta, make sure, like, X, Y, and Z, and we're like, seriously, this wasn't even on your radar.This person brought this to you, and I was willing to go in for free, and I just was so shocked, and it has been probably two years. I have heard crickets because for a long time that person kept in touch with me and yet It wasn't that person that was squashing it. 

It was the higher ups that weren't going to do anything else They weren't vetting people. They weren't looking for people to do the job, but they weren't comfortable just letting somebody of apparently my lack of a resume or a pedigree to go in as a guest speaker. oh my god, it infuriated

Tommy: Yeah, and I don't understand that. I really don't. and you know the weird thing, now that I've been lecturing, to different fire departments and stuff around Central Ohio, I started moving out like, an hour, two hours away and lecturing. And we are so far ahead here in Columbus, Ohio, in some of these suburbs, it's, it, or some of these, rural departments and these volunteer departments, it's just, they have nothing.

And recently me and my wife went down to, kind of a quick story. It's called a soldier's journey home. it was down in, Boone, North Carolina. And we built a house for this guy in 12 days. It was amazing. I couldn't believe this the first time we were involved in it. it was amazing.

I think it was 130 to 150. firefighters, volunteers from all over the country that came together to help build this guy's house. But anyways, One of the ladies there, one of my buddies who actually helps put this together, one of the ladies there is kind of doing what you guys are doing.

She's got her own 501c3 now. She's trying to bring mental health awareness to this stuff. And she's awesome. She saw my video. She wants to speak to me. So we started talking. And it amazes me how much pushback she's getting from all this stuff. I mean, she cannot get anywhere down there and it blows my mind. They just don't, they don't want anything to do with her. it kind of makes me feel fortunate here in central Ohio that we're kind of one of the leaders now with this stuff. You know, we have a lot of stuff going on now.

We need more, but it needs to go everywhere. And when you get away from central Ohio, it blows my mind of. How, like, they're 20 years behind us when it comes to this stuff. It blows my mind, 

Cinnamon: when there was that natural disaster down in Kentucky, I was getting calls. from the IAFF reps from Ohio asking, Are you licensed in Kentucky? Because they don't have anybody down here. At the time my answer was no and since then I've become licensed in Kentucky because they're right next door and there are a lot of rural black holes where they don't have resources, but even here in Ohio Erin and I for months have driven three hours to do a wellness program because they don't have people.

Erin: And these people are ready. 

Tommy: Oh, they're ready. Yeah. 

Erin: we learned that the folks that we worked with hours away, they're like, finally, like somebody, who understands.

Cinnamon: It too them a minute, 

Cinnamon: for them to trust us because they were very suspect of why we were there, who sent us in. You know who we were allied with I mean it took a while before The entirety and I wouldn't even say by the time we left the entirety was on board But that we were actually there for them somebody else had requested our presence, but we weren't aligned or in cahoots

Mm hmm. With anybody.

We really are invested in their wellness and want to give them those opportunities to access resources and talk to a person that understands and you don't have to, try to explain 25 years in a half an hour.

 Tommy: Exactly. And she had asked me. She goes, what do I do? And she was trying to pick my brain. I'm like, it's got to start from the top down, but it's also got to start from the bottom up. 

Cinnamon: down, bada bop! 

Tommy: You need to get these  people on board. It's got to start from the bottom up too.

 And I told her like, you're doing great things. And maybe it's just the fact that you do your own thing. And you invite people to come talk. You put together peers, you put together people and eventually once they see what you're doing, hopefully they'll invite you in and keep doing this stuff.

 But you know, it's a struggle. it's, it really is a struggle. I think it is getting better, but it's still there. And we have such a long way to go, such a long way to go.

Erin: Well, in the small chance that she hears this episode, for whatever rare reason, I do want to tell her what not to do. Okay.

Tommy: So she asked me and I told her I was going to get her with you guys, a couple of people up here. I do want to put you in contact with her honestly, uh, to help her out. But yeah, she's doing kind of what you guys are doing. and we need more of that. We need more people like her and you guys, 

Cinnamon: Is she a clinician? 

Tommy: I'd have to get back to you on that because I know She is a peer support. I can't remember what her actual title is because we were talking about a lot of other stuff We never got to that because it was in between breaks and things like that. We were talking because we were... 

Erin: were talking about the real meat and potatoes of what needed

Tommy: Meat and potatoes. Yeah, real meat and potatoes.

Erin: Can I just add this real quick? I, cause I want to say this because it's not just her. It's not just the three of us that are advocating and continuing to walk into the fire over and over and over again, getting told no or not today or no thanks. Or we don't need you. Here's what not to do.

Tommy: Yeah,

Erin: Don't stop.

Tommy: don't stop. 

Erin: No,

Is a temporary answer a lot of the time. And eventually you gotta get through a bunch of no's to get a

yes. So it's like, this is not to deter you, this is

to light your fuse even faster. Like continue to ask, continue to go, because eventually you're gonna get that one person that's like, okay, yes.

Tommy: hmm. Mm hmm. 

Cinnamon: Well, and even, Erin, to play off of that, 

the event that

even brought me into this world, I didn't come in until September of 2017. The event happened December 28th, 2015. There had already been clinicians from my agency where I worked at the time. That had been sent in and told to go.

They were unneeded, unnecessary, and unwanted. And yet here we all sit because that same agency decided to stop saying no and to say yes. So that don't stop, that perseverance. it's crucial.

Tommy: It is. And we can't argue with statistics nowadays. We just can't. We see it out there. when I go around the lecture, I got to read a room every once in a while, but I'll ask people how many of you guys have actually known of somebody who have died in the line of duty, actually on a fire scene, whatever.

Very few have raised your hand. There's been classes I go into with 30 people and I remember one of them, I was like, how many of you guys know somebody that's committed suicide? A firefighter, almost all of them, there was like 29 of the 30 raised their hand. And, I've personally known,six firefighters and one military guy that has, committed suicide.

One of them was my first lieutenant. it was a rough one. but these guys were friends and acquaintances of mine that I personally have known, and you can't tell me this isn't an issue, you 

can't 

argue with statistics. You can't. This is an issue. 

Cinnamon: You can't have had a gun in your mouth and then tell you, that it's not

 real. So one of the things that,

we are talking about this new firefighter that Erin knows and the way of your, back in the day, one of the things that I want to highlight about an event that Erin and I got to participate in yesterday was there were a lot of retirees. And so many of them, first of all, cutie patooties, 

just the sweetest, and feisty, oh, they were fun.

But, they, We're like, thank you for doing this. we didn't have this. And then somebody else said, did you know this particular physician? she was available to us. And then somebody else in that little group said, but we didn't use her, so when I think about that young man, who's like, my dad did this and I'm in a generational fire family, and this is what I saw, so I can't do this first off. We know that our first responders don't like to bring that shit home. So I don't care if you live with him until you are 30, you don't know what he hasn't shared with you. And the other part of it is we have those older folks who have done their time and There's no I don't want to say no cost. There's not the same cost of admission Anymore, I can tell you something now and you can't take my job and you can't take my pension, but I did not encounter In fact, there was one gentleman that I did encounter out of six people There was one gentleman who went back to the cart while the other Retirees were talking to us and just kind of sat like this with his arms crossed So, of course, I'm like radar and I go find him and I start talking to him and I introduced myself and he goes You're cinnamon and I said, yeah, and he goes I've heard about you I just want to thank you for helping my son. And I

was like,

 and he told me who his kid was 

and I was like, I love him. oh my God, to see this guy who was like going to be so anti social didn't even know what we were trying to sell and wasn't having any buying of it. I just walk over there and find out.

That he is so touched by the fact that he feels like this kind of work saved his son's life. And so

to me, I don't even buy the generational piece anymore, because we're still in 2023. We're not going backwards. We're, when we get older, we're wiser. When we don't have as much to lose, we're more honest. And, I would encourage that young man. That Aaron's referring to,have an actual conversation with your dad.

Don't just necessarily reflect on what you saw, but talk specifically about this topic. Because I would put at least a dollar down. I'm not a big gambler. So I put at least a dollar down that the response that he gets isn't Going to a hundred percent mirror what he saw growing up in that household.

Tommy: And I had a similar situation. The funny thing is when you get people off on their own. it's a whole different tune, but I had a similar experience not too long ago. I was sitting with about, I think it was like five other firefighters from around the country and they, anywhere between like, I think it was like 15 to 20 plus years on.

And one of the guys had started mentioned about my video and things that I've been doing. And then the other guy is like, man, That's awesome what you're doing. That's amazing. And then all of a sudden another guy's like, man, keep doing it. That's great. Probably these guys would have never talked about that with anybody else, but because they know that I've been through it and I've done it, it's really opened up that conversation to, Hey, listen, we need more of this.

We need more people talking about this. We need more people to normalize this and make it okay. So, it's, I think a lot of them, especially a lot of the older retirees, they never had that. But I guarantee you they dealt with it. 

they just grew up in that generation where you didn't want to be weak.

you 

wasn't allowed to talk about it. 

Erin: Yeah. 

Cinnamon: I 

would even say for the folks who are given the gift of somebody's trust, What we see is that as soon as our folks feel safe it is like word vomit, that place where they get to where They're like, finally, I can let some of this out. It's not going to be weaponized against me and actually care and are interested in what I'm saying and they're listening And I think that if you have the gift of someone's trust your reaction or response to that trust is life or death and do not take that trust lightly.

Tommy: Yeah.

Yeah. 

Erin: I do want to say, this is so lovely, and I know you have important things to do, Tommy, today, and as we all do, of course, every day, it's an important day. but something that you did talk about, and I really think this is important, is you talked about the mindfulness practices

and that, that is part of your day to day now at this point, 

 there's steps that you got to take every day to make sure that you are at your most spiritually fit space or healthiest mental space.

So what are some of the tools that you use

Tommy: Yeah. 

Erin: we could share that maybe folks could latch on to?

Tommy: Yeah, so, 

usually when I find myself starting to get anxious or anything like that or getting depressed, first of all, I am on medication. I'm not gonna lie to you. I've tried to get off my medication and my wife's like, you're off your medication, aren't you? And I'm like, yeah. And she's like, yeah, you need to probably get back on it because I would just have these really super depressive moments and I don't know why.

 I remember one day we're sitting here on the couch and she's like, are you okay? And I'm like, I don't know. And it's, that's the bad thing about it is I don't know what's causing it, but I just don't know. And then I would just start, to get all choked up and start to cry. And I just realized that I got to get back on my medication because it helps me to remain even killed.

 and, I know that about myself but there's other things I use. I do kind of meditate every once in a while. I know when I start having these anxious moments, I don't know if you ever heard of it, but it's called the five, four, three, two, one rule. it just helps me. And that's what I tell people.

It may not help you, but find whatever helps you. and stick with that. And it takes practice, it takes a lot of practice where now if I'm driving and I feel myself getting anxious or anything like that, I will just stop and I'll just focus on my breathing. I'll do that box breathing, I'll do the five in five, hold five out.

And then once I do that for about four or five rounds, I'll just focus on something like I'm where I'm driving, the traffic light and I'll just focus on it. Or, I've obviously been safe driving, things that I'm looking at. Or look at the car that's in front of me and focus on it.

And then I will take, four things that I can feel, like my shirt or the steering wheel and just focus on it. And then, three things you can hear and two things you can. You can smell and something that you can taste. I'll keep gum or something with me or things like that. Or I'll smell my shirt or something like that just to get my mind off of it and rebalance myself reground myself back into that moment.

It took me a lot of practice to do it, but I can actually do it now without even thinking about it. When I feel myself starting to get anxious, I'll just use that. And I'm usually pretty good. I can actually calm myself back down, get myself right back in that moment and focused. And it's worked for me. some people.

Do yoga, I'm not very flexible, which I probably should do more yoga, but they have this I rest yoga now, which is they say that it's like, 30 minutes of I rest yoga is like two 

Cinnamon: Wow. 

Tommy: of REM sleep. Something like it. I 

need to look at the statistics on that.

Cinnamon: I did a training in iRest, a few years ago. It's powerful. 

Tommy: yeah, it's a guided meditation and it's called IRS yoga. Yeah. And, they're having some really good studies on that right now. I've shown that it actually helps with like, REM sleep. it's like equivalent to REM sleep. but yeah, those are the things that I do, to try to just keep myself grounded, keep myself in the moment.

I've grown up a lot too. I've really learned a lot about myself, which has helped a lot with me. what I should do, what I shouldn't do. I have a different way of thinking now. 

totally kind of changed my mindset with a lot of stuff. 

Cinnamon: Perception change? 

Tommy: Perception changes. like I said, I have new purpose in life, which was huge for me.

I truly believe that people are put on this earth for a purpose and you have to find those gifts, develop those gifts and give those gifts away. And that's so important for everybody in life. You have to have a purpose in life. I had none. like I said, I just felt like I had no purpose here in life at all.

And it just, it was exhausting. 

but that's a lot of stuff that's helped me just to stay focused. And, kind of keep on track and also my wife, you know, 

Erin: Yeah, that never, hurts. 

Tommy: Yeah, keep me in check every once in a while, like, listen here, you need to figure this out, or no, before she would just let me go, she'd just let me go.

Cause, I'm not gonna lie to you, she never knew what Tommy she was going to get back in. She didn't know if she was going to get sad Tommy, depressed Tommy, suicidal Tommy, angry Tommy.

Erin: And, it got to the point where she just wouldn't say anything. And now she keeps me in check. If I'm being a butthead, she'll call me on it.

Tommy: And, and I thank her for it because, I need it, sometimes I need it because sometimes I don't realize what I'm doing. I don't realize I'm doing some of this stuff. And, she'd be like, listen, that's it. And I'm like, hey, you're right. You're right. And, so I really, contribute a lot of that to her too, and I know we're getting ready to get off here, but there was something else I read here recently.

I don't know if you've heard of the book. it's called, tribes, by, and I forget who, I had it written down here. I can't remember, but they talk about PTSD or post traumatic stress and then post traumatic stress disorder, They talk about, kind of like your support group or your mindset before the event and after the event.

So they're noticing a lot of people who don't feel like they have a big support group or they're already, lonely or anything like that. And then you have this post traumatic stress incident. And then afterwards, it's even worse. because it's your support group that you have. I had a big support group.

I just didn't tap into them. I was blaming everybody else instead of tapping into my support group. And my wife was one of my biggest supporters, but in this book, they look back at, the native American Indians. And they notice how when their tribes of how they had such a family atmosphere support group that they had very little mental health issues, they had very little suicide issues.

And it's also the same with the Amish community because of that sense of belonging and needing. That they have very little suicides and very little mental health issues. And this book, it actually kind of, I was wanting to read this to you real quick, but it says we have a strong instinct to belong to small groups defined by clear purpose and understanding tribes.

 This tribal connection has been largely lost in modern society, but regaining it may be the key to our, psychological survival. 

And

I truly believe that we all need that support, like I said, when I went to Maryland. I had to disconnect because social media, friends, everything that I was going through with the world, was not only crushing down on me, but also everything I was dealing with my depression, anxiety, PTSD, and just made it worse.

So we really need to focus on those connections too. and have that support group, have your people that you could talk to, have five people that if you're struggling, that you know that they have your back. I have a lot of acquaintances in my life, but I have very few. Close friends and I know that if I called tomorrow, they would come and help me right away.

 And you need to identify them people and you need to talk to them and you need to keep each other accountable. Honestly.

Erin: Absolutely. It looks like it might be, is it Tribe on Homecoming and Belonging, Sebastian Junger is that

one? 

Tommy: it. Yep. I had it. 

Erin: All 

Tommy: said that. Yep.

Erin: Perfect. Well, we just looked it up and we'll add that in the show notes too. If any of the listeners want to check that book out, but you're right. we talk about this all the time, the power of connection.

This is my firm belief as to why, like the 12 step communities in any capacity tend to work well is because you have a tribe it's like people that get exactly. Everything about you, you can count on and support ask for their support and anyways, we could talk forever. Clearly.

Tommy: Yes. A hundred 

Erin: and so I Tommy man, I got to stop.

I will be by the firehouse. We got to connect.

I would love to, 

Tommy: one of those hats?

Erin: uh, which 

Cinnamon: should 

Erin: well. 

We can do that.

Tommy: Okay. 

Erin: we'll get you a ball cap. we only had five made. we do have toboggan like winter kind of hats that we do have, but we'll get you one. you've earned your hat

Tommy: Thank you. Appreciate that. 

Appreciate that. 

Erin: yeah, we're getting swag.

Tommy: Yeah. I like that. I like 

some 

swag.

Yeah.

Erin: Yeah. We'll get you some swag.

Tommy: Well, hey, I appreciate you guys having me. if you want me to do it again, just let me know. If you want to talk more, I'll be open

Erin: Oh, this

is the 

first of first of many, 

Tommy: yeah, 

yeah, 

I appreciate it. I appreciate you guys having me. Yeah.