Desperation to Inspiration: With Davin Cole

EP44: Desperation to Inspiration

00:00:00 David: I always wanted to work for the police department In San Francisco 15 years ago doing the training scenarios. The handler had been doing training with the dog that I wasn't aware of. He thought he was out to bite. He came out right behind me and grabbed my left cast and just went to town. But now I've hit almost three years of pain.  So they go in surgeries that test. I come out and there's like 90% of my pain. So my pain, man, was great. We're gonna weed you out through the pain. Men, we don't want you to go through some major withdrawals. They realize, well, I don't want to stop taking these. Third days while we're gonna really start seeing you. 

00:00:35 David: You're gonna be on a plane with withdrawals from opioids, the only thing that comes up, and just go in the farm center, just do a quick robbery. No one's gonna get hurt. Looking back, there was only one thing I wanted and that was to get caught, but that was the only way I was gonna end it. For me, cover is going to take some time. I want you there and just the sense of pride she survived and the shame and the guilt and all goes away because you realize I'm a human being, I had human fault, but you overcame it. There's life after this. 

00:01:08 Cinnamon: It's the first responder, the first to get the call, the first on scene, greeted by God knows what pushed beyond the limits that they don't even set. Then what happens? You're listening to After the Tones drop. We're your hosts. I'm Cinnamon, a first responder, trauma therapist.

00:01:30 Erin: And I'm Erin, I'm a first responder integration coach.

00:01:30 Cinnamon: Our show brings you stories from real first responders the tools they've learned, the changes they've made and the lives they now get to live. 

00:01:30 Erin: A quick heads up before we start. We want to acknowledge that some of the content we discuss on our show can be triggering for some listeners. Some of our episodes may touch upon themes like traumatic experiences, PTSD, suicide and line of duty deaths. We understand that these topics are sensitive and might evoke difficult experiences, but we're not going to be able to tell you how to do it. We're going to be able to tell you how to do it. We understand that these topics are sensitive and might evoke difficult emotions. If you are currently struggling with your mental health or have experienced traumatic events recently, listen with caution. You may consider taking periodic breaks or skipping the episode altogether. We want to thank you for joining us today. Your dedication to serving our community is inspiring and we're here to support you in any way that we can. Now, if you're ready to proceed, let's begin. 

00:02:37 Cinnamon: David, we're so glad to have you and no one can tell your story better than you. What we know about you is that you're a 33 year law enforcement veteran and it sounds like you have played many, many roles and worn many hats, including K9 Handler and SWAT team member. And then, when you were heading out, were you a lieutenant at the time? 

00:03:00 David: Yes.

00:03:01 Cinnamon: Okay. The thing that I think that we're most excited about is how you unfortunately had an obstacle that you were up against based on getting injured while at work. Did you get bit by a dog? 

00:03:14 David: Yeah, I got bit. I was the trainer for the last 10 years. I was in the unit and got a pretty serious dog bite and that led to me being prescribed pretty high amounts of you know, Vicodin and then Norco after that. From there it led to my addiction. 

00:03:31 Cinnamon: We're one of those people that we get it through and through. We understand what it's like to go to struggle with addiction, and we're also huge advocates in the fact that that's what makes us who we are today. Nobody is as resilient and as big of a fighter as someone who has struggled with addiction, and it also goes to show that addiction doesn't discriminate. And so later down the road, I'm looking forward to hearing your take on being someone that worked in the community and worked with folks that were struggling with homelessness and everything else and, most likely, addiction to being on the other side of it, and what that looked like for you. 

00:04:10 Cinnamon: And gosh, the perspective must have been immense. As far as the shift in what that looked like for you, I won't get into a whole lot more, just to tee you up a little bit, but we're really excited to have you. You're a buddy of Michael's, which we are a huge fan of Michael, you've got to be pretty awesome. You guys are. 

00:04:31 David: Thank you. Thank you for having me on the show. I really appreciate it. But yeah, Mike, he was a fantastic guy. So yeah, I'm 33 year veteran. I grew up in San Francisco, always wanted to work for the police department there. I started out my career working in the Sheriff's Department. San Francisco is pretty unique. We're one city, one county, so there's no other cities within the county of San Francisco, so the Sheriff's Department there is just pretty much predominantly corrections. The police department wasn't hiring at the time. My older brother was already in the Sheriff's Department so I followed his footsteps with there, just as a place that are. 

00:05:08 David: By my time, until the police department was hiring again. It took about four years. Got in the police department. I knew I should have known from day one, exactly from day one, when my career was probably going to be like please. I get to my shift straight out of the Academy, show up at the city Academy, show up at the station. Second hour into the shift, first call comes out and it's a lady with a knife saying she's going to kill herself. Right off the bat, first call I ever handle is the uniformed officer on the streets, my partner or my training officer and I. We roll out there. The lady was a Spanish speaker. My Spanish was zero back then. I had now fluid just because of my wife being from El Salvador. 

00:05:46 David: But we get out there and she starts walking towards us with this big butcher knife. I'm backing up down the street, we do all the commands and finally another Spanish speaking officer rolls up and we get her to drop the knife and I'm just sitting there like now my training officer and all the other officers. They start talking. All the officers they know that had to shoot and kill somebody within their first year. I can't believe I almost shot somebody two hours into my career. It was kind of crazy, but it foreshadowed things. I think it's for me. From there I finished my training. 

00:06:15 David: I go to my probation station, my partner and I. We get in a car chase, a pearly at large that everyone had been chasing all week. But they kept having to cancel the car chase. It was just getting too reckless. Shot supplier. I was my first OIS but I got yelled at. First thing in sergeant was why are you shooting at the car? We're in compliance with our policy. But he was more likely he was upset that the paperwork he was going to have to do. There was no debrief. There was no, after action it was go to the station right here at four and we'll see you tomorrow. Hit on, this is the way things were Suck it up, buttercup. Then of course it was all the back slapping and now you're a real cop. And now I'm one of the ones that had their OIS from. 

00:06:56 David: This is a busy district, so officer involved, shootings once, data unusual. But now you're part of the club and it didn't bother me. I was like, okay, it kind of sucked. Finish on my probation, I go to my permanent assignment. That's how we do it in San Francisco. Get to that station. I'm about a year there. There's some about three years into my career. My partner and I are working a plain clothes gang detail. We walk into a park that somebody called about the teenagers hanging out. We'd had to drive my shooting there last week before. 

00:07:25 David: So we walk into the park and gangsters see us. They all take off running by partner and I. We turn a corner and I didn't see him. I had my eyes focused on someone else. But there's a guy there kneeling with the shotgun waiting for us. Get him and cut the. We don't.  You know, that was kind of it and I was kind of that people matter attracted part like gray or ever with things Just got crazy for me but it didn't bother me. I think when I've gone through therapy and I look back, I was really good at putting things in my junk drawer, but I didn't want it to bother me. I just stuffed in that junk drawer and I didn't have to deal with it and so I thought, hey, I'm a great cop, this stuff doesn't bother me. I guess she all these horrible things throughout my career. 

00:08:04 David: You know you see these things, the children that die and the bad accident thing. I'd walk away from it like, okay, yeah, that's not day. Every once, while you something might just tug at your hard screens, you come home and give your kids a hug. But I thought I'm doing great with all this stuff. This doesn't bother me. I've never really had any of the typical symptoms of PTSD. I never had nightmares about any of my incidents. I wasn't hypergigillate, none of the typical responses that people have. 

00:08:31 David: Fast forward at getting the K9 unit. I get it pretty early in my career or department. Things are a waiting list for everything and it usually takes a while, but I got in about six years in to get the K9 unit. Unfortunately, five years down there my sergeant dies of a heart attack. 42 years old, just right in the middle of training, dies of a heart attack. So that was hard. It's hard on all of us, but he had been the trainer of the unit. There was another officer and I. We said we'll take over the training. We selected the dogs together. I took over most of the training training the dogs, training the officers. Things were going great. And then about 15 years ago now we're doing a training scenario. 

00:09:09 David: There was no bite work involved. It was obedience, a tactical obedience, because in police work if you put tactical in front of it it sounds really cool. Cops get all excited. Oh, it was tactical, it was officer safety type movement with the dogs in. The dog was a good dog, there's nothing wrong with him. The handler, a friend of mine from the academy, had been doing some training with the dog that I wasn't aware of and, had I known, it unfortunately was on the same field that we were doing the training to the dog. I think it was expecting you to do the training he'd been doing the last few weeks with his handler and so he thought he was out to bite and that's exactly what he did. 

00:09:45 David: He came out of the car and he thought we're going to do obedience and I didn't see him coming and he came out right behind me and grabbed my left calf and just went to town. And, typical of a cop, the first thing I looked down is my pants are ripped and I was really mad because those are a brand new pair of beady is kind of like he kidding me brand new pants. I'm looking back. I definitely was in shock because as I sat down and pulled up my pant leg, I could see now there's about a golf ball sized hole in one side of my calf. You can see all the way down to the calf muscle. 

00:10:16 David: When I got to the hospital and they clean everything out, you can see the calf muscle, you can see everything. It was pretty bad. They gave me antibiotics, they gave me some pain meds. They sent me home. After about three days. Typical I got restless and called my wife hey, let's go down to the beach and, bored, I want to get out of the house. But we get to the beach and she's like, "Wow, your leg is really swollen." So I looked down and I was like oh, it doesn't look good and I called a workers' comp hospital and they're like oh you know, is it [inaudible] to the toe? Is it warm? Is it peeing? Blah, blah, blah and yeah, that's all that. Like okay, you need to hang up and go straight to the nearest ER. Oh, okay, sounds a little serious. 

00:10:53 David: We go to the ER, doctor comes in and he looks at it and the first thing he says is like, "Well, you're going to be here for a while." I go all night. He's like, "No, no, no, you're going to be here for a few days. He was, you have a really bad infection." I was like, "Oh, okay." So I'm in the hospital for like seven days. It took a while for the infection to clear. We thought it was MRSA. They ruled out MRSA, but I do recall asking the doctor four days into it. I'm like Well, I know I'm not going to lose my leg over this, am I? She's like Well, let's not worry about that right now. 

00:11:25 David: That's not the answer. I'm going to be here. I was looking for it. It's falling, no, but the infection healed. It sent me back home. I was off duty for three or four months. Then I went back light duty, still just sitting behind the desk. But now I'm going to hit nice. Month seven, month eight, and the pain's there. The pain's bad and it's hard to walk, it's hard to exert myself with it, and I called the doctor for a refill on the opioids, the pain meds. But I asked him I go, "Man, my leg still really hurting a lot. Why is it still hurting so much?" He's like, ""Well, he goes. That was a really bad injury. It's going to take a while. It's going to be a little bit over a year before you see some relief in the pain."

00:12:06 David: I was a bit of a gut check. I was like, okay, I'm getting by and that the pain meds do help and I'm feeling okay. And they end up moving me over to a pain manager, give me into a neurologist and pain manager and all that, and she's working with me. But now I've hit almost three years of pain and I'm just like, "Wow, this is not fun." And so I asked the neurologist hey, long term, what's my prognosis going to be with my leg? He looks at me and he goes you know, I have to be honest with you. This is probably going to be as good as it gets for you. 

00:12:40 David: That took it out of me with zero shame. I went to my car and I sat there for 10 minutes in tears. Just I couldn't believe that this chronic pain was going to be the rest of my life. I was waking up in pain, I was going to bed in pain. The most I could do is reduce it, but I couldn't make the pain go away at all. So it took a little bit out of me. I pay manager. I think she saw it on my face because she called me about a half hour later and called me back to the office. I have a whole set up there where they have me see a psychologist and they talk about everything. So they got me through that. 

00:13:11 David: But fortunately she didn't give up. She kept searching for surgeons that could go in there and fix. What had happened was the scar tissue was impinging on the nerve in my leg. It was the same bundle of nerves that goes up to your sciatic. So I'd have pain up the back, down the shoulder, down the fingers. Yeah, it was just horrible. But she did find me, get me into a surgeon who specialized in releasing the nerves from the scar tissue. 

00:13:38 David: So they go in surgery tests, I come out and there's like 90% of my pain 90,. 95% of the pain is gone. And I'm just ecstatic. I mean I'm hugging the doctor, I'm squeezing her, thanking her, telling her I love her. She's the best thing in the world. I was like I couldn't believe it. I was like, wow, yes. So my pain meds was like okay, great, we're going to wean you off through the pain meds. We're going to take about four months. We're going to do it nice and slow. We don't want you to go through some major withdrawals. 

00:14:07 David: So we get down to about the last month, the last couple of weeks, and I realize, well, I don't want to stop taking these. No, I'm kind of missing it, I'm missing the feeling. And so at that time, workers closed out my case. I said, okay, the surgery is being assessed, we're going to close it out, we're going to pay you off. And so I go to the sky to see my regular family physician. Great, doctor, I have nothing against the medical community If you say you're in pain. They're going to treat you for the pain. And I gone to the doctors from day one

00:14:40 David: And so when I went to his office he's like hey, how's your leg doing? I'm like, oh, horrible, still painful, still having this word pain, it was okay. So what was the prescription? Right back up to the level that I was at. So he's writing those prescriptions, I'm getting them every month and back then it was easy because you could refill 10 days before the end of the prescription. So even if I went over 20 days, I had a prescription coming and it was no problem and just get it refilled. 

00:15:05 David: But as the opioid crisis hit and the laws started to change and they started to get stricter, start fast forwarding. And now it's you can't get it before a week, and then it's three days, and then it's the day before. And it was right around that time that I started to add it in the alcohol. Of course, the two favorite Vs Vicodin and Vodka. Why not double V it? And that's exactly what it started to do. And it was kind of a sliding scale as my prescription would run out, my vodka intake would go up and as I had plenty of pills, my Vodka intake would go down and kind of rolled like that for a while, thinking I was in control the whole time. 

00:15:40 David: I thought, well, I don't use it, work, I'm only drinking at night. So I wasn't really drinking during the day that much. I was taking the pills. I was doing my liver work, but on my days off all day long. But I'm in control. This was okay. And I still was having some pain and we'd go on vacation, we'd go for long walks and pain would come back. So I was like, well, I still do need it. All the things that addicts convince themselves. That's why you have to continue in your addiction. So continue forward. 

00:16:08 David: I get promoted to Sergeant, still taking the pills, still drinking. Eventually I get assigned to our homeless outreach unit. So kind of the irony there is that I'm in charge of our homeless outreach and eventually moved up to the actual lieutenant's position. Part of our homeless outreach. We also have what they call drug pre-arrest and deflection program, where those who have such as abuse issues that are committing low level crimes, we could subvert them out of the criminal justice system and into a program. So here I am, full on into my addiction and I'm out there talking up a great game. 

00:16:43 David: I'd spend weeks sometimes trying to talk somebody into our program, telling them you know, this is great. We called it READS. The FLEED program has so much to offer you. The addiction is horrible. I know you want to get out of it. We've had this conversation. Then I'd come home and look myself in the face and be like, wow, what a hypocrite. I knew that, so there was no doubt in my mind. I was full on that. But I just kept telling myself, well, I'll fix myself. I don't need to go to a program. These guys need to go to programs. These are hardcore drug addicts. They've been drug addicts for a long time. 

00:17:16 David: I'm a functioning addict. I worked here. I'm a lieutenant of police. I run 40 officers. I got this homeless outreach. I go to city hall, I talk to the mayor's staff, I talk to the board. I'm doing fine. Again, all the things that I was doing fine on that side. But I was still full on addict. I was still struggling every night. So is this getting harder to maintain the pills? What's the next best thing? If you're going to run out, it's very easy to just start talking to other officers. Oh man, how's that shoulder doing? Oh, it's good, I go, Oh, does the pain meds working? Oh, I hate the pain meds. I don't like them. They make me sick. Oh, really, they're great for me. I take them all the time. Oh, you want mine. You could have them. Simple like that. People just give you the rest of the pill box. 

00:18:00 David: Then of course, my mom. She was on high doses of pain meds. She had no problem taking care of her young son, so she would give me pills anytime I asked for it and then just continue like that. But then the depression hit her. I think most burn the substance abuse from the entry to PTSI. And it was nightly battles with myself called I'm going to stop, I'm not going to do this anymore. And my wife she knew, she knew I did drinking. She suspected the pills. But she'd find prescription bottles. I would gaslight her and just, oh, you know, my leg was hurting. So I asked the doctor for a refill. It'd be no problem. She's all been drinking. 

00:18:42 David: And my daughters thought I'd fool my daughter. So they're 17 at 26 now that back then they're 13, 14 years old. I thought they had no idea, because dad would drink in his room. Dad would drink and just go hang out in his bedroom. And I got them full. That's okay. I was at full on them at all. I found that out later through our talks that was a hard thing to hear that I was doing them harm too and was selfish. She didn't even realize it. 

00:19:06 David: So leading up to my arrest it was getting bad that the suicidal ideations were coming. I had tried to quit drinking the alcohol several times. The most I ever made it was a month. Usually I wouldn't make it more than two or three days. I'd try to convince myself if I stopped drinking the alcohol, then I'll just switch to stop taking the pills. I'll do one and I'll do the other. So I still wasn't going to ask anybody for help. And one of the sad things is our department people like to rag on their departments, people complain and at the end of the day, services for police farming probably has one of the most robust employees since programs, I would say, in the country, compared to most agencies. We really do. We call it our behavioral science unit. 

00:19:47 David: I practically could have called the sergeant who runs the reunion. I could have called him at three in the morning and just called him hey, I got a pill problem, I'm drinking, I'm taking copious amounts of opioids. They would have picked me up the next morning, took me up to NAPA to the facility that we used and put me in a 30-day treatment. My department would put me on family leave, no questions asked. They don't want to know why you're there, they don't want to know where you're at All. The sergeant has to do is say, hey, put David on family leave and I'm on family leave for 30 days, and all I have to do is be cleared by him and the doctor when I come back. Full confidentiality, no repercussions, you're not going to get reassigned, nothing's going to happen to you as long as you don't get arrested, right? 

00:20:26 David: So as long as it's all you asking for the help. You get arrested is going to be another story, as I found out, which I knew. But still I was like no, I don't need someone else to help me. I'm a cop. I help people. I'm kind of old school, I'm the man of the house. I take care of my wife and my two daughters. I'm going to take care of this. But then it wasn't going to happen. And so that's when the depression and the suicidal thoughts are coming in. And you know it's like I'm not going to do this to my girls. I'm not. I know children of parents that commit suicide have a much higher rate of committing suicide. I just kept telling myself I wasn't going to do that. 

00:20:59 David: So I started to say well, you know what. I'll make it look like an accident and there's a highway over here along the coast and there's a section called Devil's Slide where a lot of accidents happen and you're not going to survive because it's like a 300-foot drop. I was starting to get to that stage where you know what that's all I'm going to do. I go hiking in that area. I'm just going to say I'm going out for a hike and I'm just going to drive myself off the cliff, but I just I'm glad God you stopped me from doing that. But it was at that point that I was starting to make those plans and that was like the last month or so leading up to my arrest.

00:21:32 David: So November of 2021, I go to work normal day. At this time I'd been moved to a station, so I'd been acting lieutenant right in my own unit and I was getting ready to be promoted to permanent lieutenant. So I went back to a station where I was the acting lieutenant at the station there waiting for my promotion, and I was like I'm going to go home early because that was my thing I didn't use at work and if I was really creamed in and wanted something that would just take four hours of vacation and go home. When you're near lieutenant, it's kind of easy to just give yourself the time off. The captains are like, yeah, go home. And so that's what I did and I said I'm going to go take my mom to lunch. 

00:22:09 David: Actually, we had a family vacation coming up. My wife's cousin was getting married to Mexico, so we're going to leave. This was a Wednesday, we're going to leave Saturday. But I had one pill left and I was going to go to my mom's get a handful for my mom and I figured oh, you know, if I'm down in Mexico I'm sure I could buy in the pharmacies down there. You know, no, in El Salvador, you can, because I would buy it when I was getting there. But mom didn't have any. She couldn't give me any because she was low on hers. And now I'm driving home in a full on panic because I realized that I take this last pill. 

00:22:40 David: By the time I'm on that plane going to Mexico, I'm going to be going through withdrawals, really bad withdrawals, because that's a third day's value, and it really starts to hit you and I'm just like I can't be on a plane with everything that happens with withdrawals from opioids and the only thing that comes up is you know what? I'll rob a pharmacy and just go in the farm. So I just do a quick robbery and no one's going to get hurt. They don't call the cops until you leave. Worst planned out robbery. I parked my car almost a block away. 

00:23:07 David: I went to the pharmacy. I mean I put on a surgical mask still COVID and I'd picked up my descriptions before there in the past, so that was my idea. I dropped my daughter off at cheer practice and I told her the pharmacy. And I tell myself two things. One, I bring a little revolver with me and I tell myself if the cops show up, I'm going to kill myself. If they do show up, I'm just going to kill myself because I'm not going to put my daughters through all this. And the other thing is okay, I really reached the bottom. 

00:23:36 David: After I get back from Mexico I'm going to ask for help. I mentioned a few things. I told myself, "Go in, hand them a note." They give me nine bottles of Vicodin. That would have probably just that alone probably would have caused me to overdose, having that much available to me. Go outside, start walking towards my car and there's the police department. You understand, this pharmacy is one mile from my house in the city that I live. In a police department that's not that big. I know a couple of the officers and they would make no sense to do a robbery in a small town because you know the cops are going to be there. 

00:24:11 David: I saw the pharmacist calling 911. I saw her on the phone. I saw her standing out looking at me giving the description and I still just stood there waiting for them. And they were taking their sweet time. I'm like just waiting and waiting. Looking back, there was only one thing I wanted, and that was to get caught. That was the only way I was going to end it for me. And so I get arrested. I'm a train wreck. I just bawl my eyes out and went back to the patrol car all the way to the station. So they booked me in the county jail. And the whole time at the station, my wife doesn't know where I'm at. She knows I dropped my daughter off and she had heard me make my suicidal ideations, and so she was convinced that I killed myself. 

00:24:52 David: And so her and my daughters are in a panic. They're driving around, they're trying to find me, they're trying to pee in my phone. I finally could call the station, but I'll likely really tell her I've been arrested Generally, tell her why, what's going on. I should tell her, "Hey, I'm going to book me in the jail, you're going to have to come bail me out." So I get bailed out and go home. And one thing I found out next night my department comes, spend me without pay, take my badge, my gun, but then the very next morning they come and they pick me up and they take me up to the 30 day treatment and it's for everybody but it's first year [inaudible]. So it's where all the first year fawners in the San Francisco Bay Area go to, and so it's up in Napa Valley. It's a very nice facility. 

00:25:33 David: But I was still a train wreck when I got up there, even when they booked me in the county jail. I grabbed the phone cord twice and wrapped it around my neck, thinking I was just going to hang myself in the cell. But I did it. But even when I was up in the 30 day treatment, I had thoughts of just grabbing a sheet because it's out in the middle of the woods. I also was like I'm going to grab one of these sheets and just go hang myself from a tree, because I destroyed everything in that brief moment. Everything I'd build up to in my career was at a pinnacle. I was well respected in the department, I was well respected at City Hall and I destroyed everything in that one idiotic thought. But I got through it. 

00:26:11 David: I found out later from my wife that the night when I got home I'd explained to my daughters what happened. I couldn't say it in the first person, I was saying it in the third person should dad within the pharmacy and dad robbed the pharmacy. And then when I was up in the 30-day treatment, I was doing the same thing I was, until my therapist told me you won't say this in the first person. And I was like, well, I didn't even realize it. It's just that the guilt you worked a lot through the therapy, through that, but it spent the next year, took the year for them to stand as being relapsed on the alcohol with another 30-day treatment, but was still just lost. 

00:26:48 David: They had a whole year like I don't know what's gonna happen. I don't know if I'm going to prison. I don't know if I'm gonna get probation, I don't know if my wife is gonna stay with me. I don't know what's going on. One of the things that helped was that I did get my retirement, so the department didn't go after my retirement. They allowed me to retire, got to keep my pension, and so money was a little bit of a struggle just because of legal costs, but that, at least, was one less thing to stress about. I was still a trademark. I was still trying to deal with everything. 

00:27:16 David: During my whole addiction. I couldn't figure out that is going on with me. I have a good marriage. We're about to hit 28 years of marriage. No problems in our marriage. We've got along great. No financial problems. My kids are doing great. They do great in school. And I kept asking myself why am I doing this? What is wrong with me? I don't need to drink. What am I hiding from? It just said never figure out. 

00:27:40 David: And then I never had issues. I mean, I was like any other teenager, able to take parties and we would drink, and I got night clubbing when I was younger. But I never had issues with drinking. I wouldn't go out and black out drinking or anything like that. I just kind of all cropped up and that's where the untreated PTSI came in and childhood trauma, stuff that I didn't know. I'd stuck in that junk drawer and that junk drawer got overloaded and then I think a lot of us with childhood trauma, we go into firefighting and police work. I'm sure there's a reason why we do that. 

00:28:12 David: And not only we bring new traumas to ourselves, we get to see other people's traumas. I think a lot of us are like me and we stick it in a junk drawer. We think we're doing fine and then one day we're not. So it's been a lot of time with therapy. Last year it'll almost be a year. On December 23rd my attorney goes okay, you can have court on December 23rd and you're going to jail. He goes, you're gonna get county jail, you're gonna get probation, he goes. But I have to warn you the judge might change your mind too. 

00:28:41 David: So two days before Christmas, I know I'm going to jail that day, and that was hard. So we had to celebrate Christmas the week before because we knew dad was gonna be in jail on Christmas. And so the judge, she laid it out. She was very fair. She took into account my years of service, all my work I did with the homeless and with the drugs programs. But she didn't say you can make a difference and it's not an excuse and you have to have punishment, so 70 of the year from the county jail. Here you only do half 50% of the time. So I did six months, got out on Father's Day. That was kind of a nice Thursday gift. 

00:29:17 David: It was hard and county time's a lot easier than state prison, a lot easier than federal prison. I have a couple of friends who were in similar situations, who were police officers that didn't go to prison and it was a lot harder on them. I mean, the worst part is because it was county I couldn't be out in general population so I had to be myself for 23 and a half hours a day so I got 30 minutes out a day. That was it. Some days the deputies were trying to get me out a little extra time. The inmates took a liking to me. I didn't go in there with an attitude. I would in there like okay, I'm a criminal, I make no excuses. I was a drug addict. 

00:29:49 David: Yes, that dictated a lot of what I did. But I still chose to rob that pharmacy that day and I'm not putting myself any differently than anybody here right now. Day one, and when I got there they all knew who I was and had been big news the day I got arrested. It was all over the news. Unfortunately for my children and my wife. I was on TV, was on the morning news. The evening news was in all the newspapers the day of my satin scene. I came out in the local newspaper the next day, which is the one paper they give out free in the jail. 

00:30:20 David: So I get up in the morning, my first day and get the newspaper and I open up and on page two there's my face in my uniform, smiling, sergeant and police to get sentenced to prison and jail and it's like God. But I had garnered a little bit of respect. Kind of was a weird like sage thing. They'd start asking me questions just about life in general and then about their cases. But they kind of took care of me. They make sure I had books to read every day. We'd trade seed. There's a whole thing of everyone kind of chips in all their food and then somebody makes something of burritos or pizzas and stuff and makes share their food with me. 

00:30:54 David: And I'd learned a lot about myself. I wasn't going to let myself go in there and be well with me. I'm in jail. I told myself, okay, I'm gonna be here for six months, I'm gonna make something of it. And I realized I was a lot stronger than I ever gave myself credit for. I always had a lot of self-doubt about myself and about just my personal strengths and came out of it was going okay, you know what? Wow, you've really had way too much self-doubt in your life and really got a lot out of it. I need it.

00:31:21 David: I think I needed those six months in jail too because of the relapses in the alcohol. I didn't need that anymore and I needed to realize I gotta stop living in the past. I can live in the present and I gotta take care of my family and I can't screw around that anymore. I did get out of jail and within two days grabbed a bottle and was like what is wrong with you? Just right back to that old habit. And I was like no, this is ridiculous to me. 

00:31:45 David: So I got back into therapy and been doing good, been doing really good since then, and it started on the public speaking. I've always kind of been having the gift of the abs. One of my partners he was my roommate but we were working together. One night he looks over me and he's like you know what, David, you could work a whole shift by yourselves and not run out of things to say I was like you know, Chris, I can't even know if you could do that. I couldn't have to say that was the hardest part about being in the cave. I mean, it's just you and the dog, poor dog, just had to listen to me nonstop. I can't tell. 

00:32:21 Erin: Hey there, listener, If you could ask any question or freely talk about any challenge related to being on the job and no one would know what would you say? We are excited to share about our confidential hotline that we created just for you. Through this confidential hotline, you can leave a message, sharing a success, a struggle or simply ask a question. We will spotlight calls and offer feedback and insight from a licensed therapist and a certified coach who work exclusively with first responders. You can access our hotline voicemail by visiting afterthetonesdrop.com and clicking the voicemail tab. Additionally, you can join our mailing list if you'd like, or easily follow us on Facebook and Instagram for all the most recent updates. You know the drill telephone, telefriend, telefirst responder. 

33:25 Erin: I was just thinking are you a Cinnamon's brother or something, because we can talk, we can talk, we can talk. That's one great reason that we have a podcast. I'm like we're never gonna run out of things to say. 

00:33:37 David: If you let me ramble, you'd have a three hour podcast with me. That's me from that. 

00:33:41 Cinnamon: I have about six pages of questions, so eventually I'll start talking, but not yet. 

00:33:49 David: Yeah, I don't hold back, I tell my story to anybody. My wife is like sometimes you're a little too sharing. I'm not kidding. If a stranger in Safeway were to ask me my story, I'd be like oh yeah, here's what happened to me. I was a cop and I got arrested. But I share my story. One for me because every time I tell the story I heal a little bit more. But the big thing for me is this is real and first responders. When I said 30 days in-patient treatment I went to, there were nine first responders went through, including five from my department alone. I was like, wow, one, I'm not alone, I'm not unique. And two, this is serious and we talk about it at work.

00:34:33 David: The women talk about it enough and I don't want this to happen to anybody else. Several of the people up there self-admitted, so they went and they asked for help. Couple of the others, mostly DUIs. I got arrested for DUI. One was a domestic violence no physical violence, but drunken waving a gun out. Some people consider violence, but still he ended up there. So I just don't want this to happen to someone else. I want to get over the stigma that's out there in first responders and somehow asking for help makes you weak. I think it's the strongest thing you could do. 

00:35:07 David: I mean, I still to this day admire all those officers and firefighters that self-admitted. Right after that 30 day treatment I did a 90 day outpatient and the same thing. There was first responders there that had self-admitted to that program and I just think, man, I wish I'd have that courage, for that strength, and I realized I did have it. She started myself too much. It was there, I didn't believe in myself enough. And also to break the stigma that it doesn't mean you're broken and I think we see that too much with your peers and with leaders in the first responder communities that somehow if you admit to an addiction or substance abuse or PTSI, that you're broken and you can't be fixed and you can't come back to work. 

00:35:51 David: And I think that's a horrible thing to do to any human being because you're doing damage to that person. But you're doing damage to your departments because the other officers, the other firefighters, the EMS, the 911 Dispenser, they all see it and it makes them more scared, even if it's not their own agency. They see it on the news, they see it on podcasts. If they're gonna be scared, to come forward and we need to break that. We need to end that and have more programs. So they said our department has a great program. 

00:36:19 David: I think one of the things for me when I look back and why I thought I could fix myself but also really didn't have a clear idea of what sobriety look like and that's kind of my other message is it's how great sobriety is. How just that life when you're finally there and it's not an easy road, your recovery is gonna take some time. I want you there and you look back and just the sense of pride that you got through it and that you survived it. And the shame and the guilt it all goes away because you realize I'm a human being, I had a human fault, but he overcame them. I was able to overcome it and I was able to succeed. 

00:37:00 David: And you don't have to end up being some being who that goes out and does life coaching and start your own trauma centers. Start doing yoga classes. You know it's like me. I was like that's probably not something I would do. 

00:37:14 Erin: Like us. 

00:37:15 David: Right, right. But I think it's just the fact that you could be done, done with it and just be healthy again. And I used to say I just want to be who I was. But I listen to these other podcasters and he's a former police officer on Arizona and what he said was perfect. He goes. I didn't want to be who I was, I wanted to be new. And I thought about it. I was like, yeah, that's true, I wanted to be a new person that really meant a lot to me. I listened to his podcast about nine months ago no, it's actually before I went in custody. So yeah, I was over here ago. But it hit me and I was like that's true, I don't want to be who I was. I want to be a new David. I want to be different, as I really think that is my toughest of like. I mean, I'm not going to be the old David.

00:37:56 David: Even before I was an addict, there was still something going on. I need to be the new David. So that's kind of how I took it out of there. And just from that and staying with that positive attitude, I was stuck for a little bit on what am I going to do in my retirement now? Because everything that I'm qualified for I can't use because I'm a felon. I'm still on felony probation. I got two more years of that. Can't really do police work or be a canine trainer or any of that stuff. 

00:38:21 David: Startup tech company here in Silicon Valley pulled me in and gave me a job doing work, doing law enforcement agencies, doing assessments and something I thought I would never do and I was like see, you just live your life and you're happy. And that's my other message is there's life after this. There's life, and it doesn't have to be what you thought it was. I had these grand-oise plans. I was like I'm leaving as a lieutenant from San Francisco. I could be a chief in any small department. That's all I'm going to do. I'm going to go be a chief someplace, do five years as a chief and be done. 

00:38:53 David: All of a sudden I didn't have that. I'm executive director of law enforcement engagement that's a nice title. We're working remotely for Silicon Valley Cup and I'm like I can't complain. So, yeah, those are kind of my messages for everyone out there. So, yeah, ask for help, you'll get through this. Some ride is beautiful and there is life after this. No matter how you go through your crash or you go through self-admitting, there is life after this and life is going to be beautiful after this. It's kind of my story. 

00:39:23 Erin: Well, that is a very powerful story for sure. I know it's Cinnamon, she's our note taker and I've just been watching. So what I want to say is we are huge advocates for there's life after this. Obviously, we are here and I get a chuckle out of the Life Coach comment and I'm like but the thing is, when you're so passionate about something and you see what's possible, it's like you want to give it back and you are I'm sorry that you are coaching like what you're doing. It is an advocacy role. You sourced it, buddy. No, it's true. 

00:40:00 David: I've met a couple of officers who've been through this and when I told them how I'm going into public speaking and I've asked them, have you ever thought about it? And they're like, oh no, I couldn't do that. They still don't want to share their story. They're happy with their sobriety. They still are just like, yeah, I don't think I can share my story. I get it. But one of them has actually since turned around. He actually approached me. He's like hey, can I come with you when you start doing public speaking? I'm like, bro, you come with me every day. You want, I'd love to have you there with me. His story is just as powerful. 

00:40:29 Erin: Wow, awesome In hearing it from your mouth is different than hearing it from my mouth, which I'm a chemical dependency counselor or like so what little girl. But I've lived it and I know it. And the podcast has been live since the beginning of May and you are now our third person that has been on here speaking about addiction, and we only have one guest, a first responder guest, a month. So at what seven first responder guests? There's been three. It's fantastic. 

00:40:58 David: Yeah, I mean it's out there, it's a reality. I've gone online, I've done some studies, both because of my new job and just for my own interest of the stats. They say it's about 35 percent of. First of all, I think it's a little higher because you're asking people to self report their addiction, so you're not gonna get a good right read on those numbers. And a lot of us are functioning addicts and we convince ourselves that that's a different, that somehow if you're working a job and you're here, you're maintaining your life and you're going to your kids, football games or whatnot, that even though in your heart you know you're an addict, you're not an addict. The addict is the guy in the street corner bent over from the Fentanyl. It's not the firefighter or the police officer and the dispatcher trudging along. And so, yeah, I think those numbers are much higher. 

00:41:45 David: The PTSD these days about almost 45 to 50 percent. I think those almost always go hand in hand and I think we are starting to see a shift. A lot of public safety agencies, they've been acknowledging that it is an issue and that they need to have something in place. I think it's fortunate. A lot of the programs they start with a good idea. But I think for me, like the biggest mistake I've seen is having the caretakers be hired by the city but you go to the city doctor for treatment. No, you can't do that because who's the real client? Right, if you're going to a city doctor, like we have a department doctor, but really who's the client? How much does HIPAA really follow when they work for that and how comfortable are you? 

00:42:26 David: And some agencies still want to report back on how are they doing? All you should need to know is clear for duty, not cleared for duty period. You don't need to know anything else. But you're better off contracting now. You better often, like our department does, and we have a system where all our clinicians are vetted. They're all first responder competent. They put them through like in-house training. They have you go through shoot don't shoot scenarios. They put on a little class for them. They haven't do ride-alongs in the departments. 

00:42:55 David: They know that you really appear not familiar with the culture of first responders. You could be shocking some of the stuff you hear coming out of the mouths and I've heard horse stories of clinicians just not handling what they hear well and that turns people off and that's what you hear like oh, they're never gonna understand me if I go to a therapist. They don't know anything about police working. I think that's why it's important to have those culturally competent therapists there who's worked with first responders, because it makes a huge difference. I mean, I had one at a facility. 

00:43:26 David: She had never had a first responder. She was fantastic. I wish she was in private practice. She really got me, but I think that's still the odd one. Yeah, I think most of them are gonna have a hard time really with that. My current therapist now she's worked with that's a lot of first responders and you kind of need someone to call you out on your first responder bullshit. She will just a quick miss. She won't call me out on the bullshit because she knows she knows first responders, she knows how we are when, she knows what we do, so she knows when I'm holding back, not really letting loose. 

00:43:58 Erin: Yeah, that's why we do what we do. That's all we do. Now, Cinnamon, I know it's your turn.

00:44:04 Cinnamon: Yeah part of our job description is the ability to bust balls. Yeah, like if you've lived your life and now you're hanging out with me, I'm gonna guess nobody else has set it or delivered it in a way that has shifted things to the degree that they need to shift, and if I tip-a-toe around it, then I'm doing you a disservice. We are very direct and I make sure that my clients know that it's coming from a place of love, like it's that relationship that you build. I can trust this person who I know has my best interest at heart, who can see through my bullshit and is gonna call me on it and not co-sign it. All right, I've got a shit ton of questions.

00:44:56 David: Shootaways. 

00:44:57 Cinnamon: So Erin talks in the beginning, our guests talk in the middle and then Cinnamon talks at the end. So you're like, oh, Erin says that cinnamon talk so much and you had not heard me yet. Well, okay question number one you talked about. I'm not going to do this to my girls and I can make it look like an accident. Obviously, your buddy is with Michael Segru. That was a very similar storyline to his, it's okay. So we know that suicide will make us look bad and negatively impact our family after we're gone, so we're gonna just make it look like an accident. Do you feel like now that you're back in your right, sober mind because you know that.

00:45:41 Cinnamon: Yes, you acknowledge that you engaged in criminal behavior, but you called yourself a criminal, and I think that there is a population of people that when they're sober or on their meds, whatever that looks like. They tend to make different choices and aren't criminally minded. But what do you think are the odds that people would have just thought it was an accident? 

00:46:01 David: I think they would have known exactly who it was. I know my wife would have. I don't think she would have believed it for a minute. You know she's something I was trying to convince myself and I think that's what we do. I know, Mike, you talked about trying to go to high-risk calls but trying to make it look like an accident. They know you, and I think that's another one of those things we tell ourselves is that we don't realize how well they know us, especially our spouses. How well they really know us. So we still think we'd be gaslight. I'm in full and yeah, I don't think anybody would have believed it. I don't think my daughters would have either.

00:46:34 Cinnamon: The reason I asked that question is because I want our listeners to hear it. I know that there are people that are listening today that have that same thought and they are not yet back in their right mind. And I want them to know that somebody who has had those thoughts is very clear now, on the other side of it, they weren't fooling anybody no. And the other piece of it, your very conscientious of your family. These were not necessarily selfish thoughts, but the one piece that gets missed is who's gonna clean up your body? Who else are you putting through new, more additional trauma because they got a clean of a brother and you're not thinking through everything, right? 

00:47:18 Cinnamon: And so I'm gonna assume that you are not the kind of guy that wants to cause trauma to not only his family but his co-workers, and so that's how far when we talk about addiction. That's how far out of your mind addiction can go. It's not just like I keep taking these, even though I know I shouldn't. Is that you lose your ever-loving mind? 

00:47:40 David: Oh, yeah, you are not thinking, you think makes it. You think you're a funcionatic, you think everything is great and you're making great decisions until you're not. But you're not thinking rationally. It's funny, bring up what you do to your fellow officers. So, like I mentioned, I had my gun on me. I was gonna shoot myself. One of the officers, who was a friend of mine, talked to me the next day. I had to go back to the police station to pick up some stuff and he's like hey, you did reach for your gun a couple times. We didn't know you had a gun, but we look at body worn cameras. You reach for it. 

00:48:12 David: So now fast forward. A couple weeks ago, some of my daughters she cheers, and so I'm at the football game and there's the cop that arrested me and I'll tell you I've been waiting to see him. The department that arrested me has actually invited me to come give a training to their department and give a talk to their officers about addiction and mental health. But I saw that officer. Yeah, I thanked him because I told him he saved my life and the one thing he said to me was he also jumped up here, sorry. He's like thank you for not making me shoot. 

00:48:44 David: You guys thought God, I almost did that because even if I'd pulled that gun out to shoot myself, they wouldn't know I was trying to shoot myself. And they would add if she won't. I'd occurred also from my friend that the officers who arrested me they're young officers, they'd only had a couple years in the business and he said they were a little traumatized by because, as soon as they put the handcuffs on man like him, off duty cop, and so they knew right from the get go it was hard on him. That was hard to hear. 

00:49:11 David: There's a veteran police officer from their own city to me hitting a crime and that they had to handcuff them and then they had to sit there and babysit them for two hours through the process. They weren't gonna leave me alone. So yeah, you're right, it would have been first responders there, cleaning my body. They would have had to climb down that 300 foot cliff. They would add a rope down. They would have put their lives in danger. Just go clean my stupid ass up because I had made an irrational decision that I thought was rationally made to avoid another irrational decision, right. 

00:49:46 Cinnamon: Yeah, the way I wrote it was the way you said it, so I'm gonna tell you how I wrote it. I put it in quotes and then I put an exclamation point at the end. "I'll just rob a pharmacy. That is the solution." Like if that is a good litmus test of how irrational. That was your best thinking and Erin says it all the time the thinking that got us into this cannot be the same thinking that gets us out. And Erin and I actually talked on the phone about this this morning. 

00:50:16 Cinnamon: For you to tell your story and not leave out anything for you to acknowledge hey, I became a felon, I've been incarcerated, I'm a recovering addict. You are not the only one, and there will be even more in the future. And so if you all don't talk about it, it just promotes secrecy. For you, what would you say... like the buddy that you were talking about that eventually changes mine. What comes to my mind is guilt and shame. 

00:50:46 David: Yes.

00:50:49 Cinnamon: I cannot like I've dealt with it but the idea of everyone attaching this story to my name. I'm not there yet. What did you do to be able to work past that guilt and shame and embarrassment, to be like, yeah, this is what happens to some of us and I'm not ashamed anymore. I'm out here saving lives.

00:51:14  David: Yeah, one of the first things I had to get through and the therapy helps being with is knowing the difference between sympathy and empathy. And I thought, oh, look, everyone's gonna look at. Oh there goes, poor David, the poor drug addict, and robbed the pharmacy and had to go to jail and I was like I couldn't face my coworkers. I want to go now clean out my locker two years down the road. But I did try to go clean my locker out two months after my arrest day I got to the station and people are coming and hugging me my officers that worked under me, you know just giving me big hugs and making sure I'm okay. 

00:51:46 David: But my thought at that time was, god, they all pity me, they all feel sorry for me. And my therapist is right, it's like, no, they empathy for you, they understand, they feel for you, they don't feel sorry for you, they feel for it. And so that went a long way towards taking it and I don't forgive myself for committing the crime. I forgive myself for why it happened. So I committed the crime. I still made that decision to rob that pharmacy. I accept that. I don't make excuses, I don't tell anybody. Well, I was a drug addict, so that's why that's not my excuse. But I do forgive myself that I was addicted and that I have PTSI that was untreated and that led me down that road. 

00:52:31 David: So that's where I make the distinction is I did this, but this is why I did it, but that's not the excuse.  The other thing is that it's 15 minutes out of 58 years of my life will not define me and that goes well, plays. Even if you do something great, that still doesn't define you. But somebody brought that up to me. I was like, well, how can you just like forgive yourself and you did something really bad? That's why I told my go see, that doesn't define me. I'm not gonna let that define me. Because if you let one thing define you, whether it's good or bad, then you become stagnant and you don't grow. And that's the worst thing is not to grow in life. And I've grown... I'm 58 years old. I'm still growing and it's great. 

00:53:13 Erin: Hey there, to all you fearless folks who've been tuning in to after the tones drop. You know we've been dishing out some real deal mental health wisdom for our first responders and we need your help to keep it rolling. So here's the deal. Take a minute and do us a favor by leaving a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform. And listen, we're not expecting a novel here, just a few lines about what you're appreciating about the show, whether it's our interviews, perhaps the educational aspect, or just our goofy humor and metaphors and your feedback. It's like the gasoline in our engine, fueling us to bring you more of the good stuff. So let's keep that siren wailing and those reviews pouring in. Thanks, we appreciate you. 

00:54:03 Cinnamon: Well, and I can't imagine somebody walking around saying hi, I'm a robber. So, part of this is figuring out how to separate who we are from what we do and In the recovery community, like I'm gonna pause for a second, I want to say I'm over here laughing. As you're talking, David, I'm laughing and Erin is smiling too.  You're smiling and I think part of what I want to make sure our listeners and especially our viewers if you're watching on YouTube, we're laughing because we understand addiction, we know what happens and we're like, oh my god, that's what you did. Let me tell you what I did. 

00:54:44 Cinnamon: And it's not something that we cry over or we feel shame for anymore, and I think that's one of the most profound things that you experience when you walk into a room of a 12-step program is why am I hearing all of these horrible things and people are laughing and joking about it. And that is one of the greatest gifts is that I could be like, yeah, he literally had the thought. I'll just rob a pharmacy, great idea. So I want to ask you, when you were talking about explaining this to your daughters and anybody else, you kept falling into third person and you were able to connect, with the help of your therapist, how that was a embodiment of the shame and the guilt. So tell me what you think. Saying it, the way that you did, telling the story, the way that you did, protected you from whatever pain you thought you were going to be in if you said I. 

00:55:44 David: Because it made it like it wasn't real. It did happen to me, it happened to him. See, David went to the pharmacy. I didn't go to the pharmacy and rob it.  David went to the pharmacy. You sound disconnected with myself, so in my brain it wasn't a reality. It wasn't something that happened to me and happened to someone else. And I think that also is just part of your response is that that wasn't me, that wasn't David. It was David who did it, but it was the addict David, it was the PTSI David who was a lot of that. And I said I don't make excuses, but that wasn't the real David. It was who I was then, but it wasn't who I really was as a human being. And it's like that for a lot of people and that's what happens in addiction is again, you see, you're you but you're not. You really are not. 

00:56:35 Cinnamon: Yeah, Aaron and I are pretty forward with our own stories of recovery. We actually met in an AA meeting over a decade ago. But the big part of that especially working with first responders, having you know what I like to call it Narcan fatigue and things like that we are what it looks like when you just give someone one more chance to figure it out. And I've asked in training rooms, how many junkies do you think are in the room? And the answer then becomes well, at least two, if Erin's with me and I'm like. 

00:57:12 Cinnamon: So if you think this harshly about people who have substance abuse issues, why are you paying me money to be here? Why are you taking my advice? Why are you listening to anything I have to say? Because I can guarantee 15 years ago you wouldn't have. But that wasn't me. That was me smothered in whatever addictive behavior I was doing. And so once I reemerged, I got all kinds of value and things to offer, and so I think, having what you said the belief that you're broken and you can't be fixed, you can't come back into it what popped into my head was lost cause. And why would anyone sign up to be a lost cause if they've watched how somebody else has been poorly treated, and so part of our message that is maybe in the finer print is this is what recovery can look like. 

00:58:06 Cinnamon: This is what happens when you face your demons, face your childhood trauma. You face yourself. So no, you're not a lost cause, You're not broken. In fact, I think addicts are the most bendable people ever, because they bend without breaking. Because we are here and we are whole. And for you to offer up this level of vulnerability and transparency, we can't calculate how many lives you're going to save just by having this one conversation, and who better to have it than someone whose bottom may look similar, but most likely a little bit worse than what we would consider some of our functional alcoholics or pain management folks? And so kudos to you. 

00:58:55 David: Thank you.

00:58:55 Cinnamon: We can't count the number of lives that you'll save, but I can tell you that several of our guests, their life has changed tremendously since being on our show, because now people are like, oh, that's me, and people are reaching out to them. And so, even if it's one person that hears your story and reaches out to you, the ripple effect is massive. And that's what I keep telling people. It might only be you and one other person, but the person that they help and then da, da, da, so this platform alone and we're not the only one, there's many folks are able to hear their story through you guys and say, all right, I think that I can get the help if this person did it. 

00:59:35 David: Yeah, I agree. 

And I think it's important for people like us to share a story for platforms like yours, because that is one of the first things that hit me when I did go into treatment was that, wow, I am not alone and our stories may be different but they're the same. And I think that's a hard thing. Yeah, I know. For me, it was like nobody knows what I'm going through and no one knows how bad this is for me. And then you get out there and you're like, wow, no, I'm not alone. Then you start hearing the success stories and you start meeting people who've gone through AA programs or other programs and you start to realize that, wow, there is hope, there is some variety and there is a ginormous light at this end of the tunnel that I'm going to get to and it's going to be great. And if one life changes from my story, then I'm successful. 

01:00:21 Cinnamon: One of my thoughts is this reduces criminality because we talk about the ripple effect of one person telling another person. Your kids are not having that increase of likelihood of dying by suicide. They are going to have healthy, well-adjusted children who will have healthy, well-adjusted children, and you just eliminated possible juvenile delinquents because they're not carrying trauma in their DNA or they don't have ancestors with unresolved trauma that has behaviorally passed down. 

01:00:51 Cinnamon: And the other thought I had was when we look at our peer population, it's not just another cop or another dispatcher, another fire EMS, it's the people who have been through it. So if the people who have been through it don't share what they've been through, who's going to explain this? Who's going to normalize it? Who's going to make it something that doesn't have to be stigmatized? It has to be the people who have been through it. And if we don't get to a place where we can share without shame, we're condemning some of our loved ones and favorite people and everybody else to not knowing that somebody has walked that path and got to the other side and they're going to think the same thoughts you did. 

01:01:34 David: Yeah, and I'll say this to the listeners out there too. One of the other lessons I learned right away is that people still have a lot of respect for you. Initially, when I started telling my story, there's a lot of anxiety. I wasn't sure how people were going to react, especially like other first responders, especially other cops. I was worried that some cops would be like, oh okay, you're kind of a loser. 

01:01:54 David: The reception I've gotten has been incredible. So I think a lot of this stigma comes from this false bravado that we put on in our fields that we think we have to behave a certain way. We think we have to model this out of tough, hardcore image like anything else. When you have more one-on-one conversations with people, you realize that the truth is just we've created this false culture that really isn't there and it's unfortunate. You get out there and you share your story and you share your vulnerabilities. You'd be surprised how many people will support you. 

01:02:30 David: People you don't know who are in your field and even outside of your field. I mean, I've told people that nothing to do and they just extremely supportive. And so, yeah, if you're going through it, don't feel like you're not going to get support. You will get it, you will be amazed and whether you go to an AA or you find another group that works for you, you will be overwhelmed by how much support and love and just the amazing feedback you're going to get from people. 

01:02:59 David: I think it's easy in recovery to go well if I'd known that three years ago I would've gotten help and maybe maybe I would have. Maybe if someone had told it as passionately as I'm trying to say now, maybe I would have. Maybe I absolutely would have gotten it. Get that help. On a quick side note, one of the things about the opioids that I was really scared about is the withdrawals in recovery. I have to tell you, with the medically assisted treatment, with the Suboxone that's what they put me on. Holy cow. I'm telling you right now and again, it's easy for me to go back. I think I'm positive. 

01:03:35 David: Had I known what Suboxone and medically assisted treatment does to reduce those withdrawals, it would have made that transition a lot easier. What they've done now to treat people coming off the opioids is they've made huge steps. It's amazing. I'm a huge supporter of Suboxone treatment. I'm a huge supporter, of course, of Narcan. I always have been, but I'm not on Suboxone. Now I made a decision to go on Vivitrol, which takes away the cravings, versus a substitute. I'm happier with that. I'm still on it. I'm going to stay on it for a couple more years. 

01:04:307 David: I'm barely two years off of opioids and I've spent six of those months in jail, so why take that risk right now? I'm still going to therapy. I'm no problem taking the Vivitrol. The shots hurt. Yeah, it's once a month. Alternating sides, but yeah, it's the medically assisted treatment, the matte treatments. It's amazing out there. I'm going to do something else. I want to get out there because I know a lot of people who are on the opioids. That is a huge fear. If you've ever run out, just even the beginning stages of it is horrible and I had zero with that. I had zero of any of that when I was going through treatment. 

01:04:39 Cinnamon: Well, and don't you think that there's a pretty extreme judgment around even MAT, medically assisted treatment or medically assisted therapy, the idea of like, oh, you're not really sober. And we see that in some of the 12 step meetings. But what the research has said over and over and over is this MAT concept is the game changer. It saves lives because it's handling it in the most medically sound way. And so, for those people who may have some resistance to that or have had negative experiences in a recovery environment, just know that you don't have to do this the hard way for it to work.

01:05:29 Cinnamon: I mean, we talk about the easier, softer way in recovery, but you don't have to die. You don't have to be locked in a room shitting your pants for 30 days. You can do this, and sometimes it's a good idea. If you've just been on it for an injury for more than five days, you know that's when you start seeing those game changes. One other thing I want to say and then I'm going to let Erin take over because she's good at the goodbyes we're going to get a number to whoever is in charge of training your contracted clinicians, and we're coming to San Francisco. 

01:06:03 Cinnamon: I absolutely would love to be a part of witness observe play along with the training that they send your clinicians through, because I had the luxury of just sitting in a firehouse for six months. Nobody really paid any attention to me, they were giving me a paycheck. And that exposure made all the difference in terms of understanding cultural competency and not just like okay, so they have three different kinds of uniforms, but rather like oh, this is what it is like in here, and so I definitely wouldn't be happy. 

01:06:44 David: Yeah, so the sergeant that's down there, he's a clinician himself pretty much everyone that volunteers to go into that unit and it's separate. It has its own office, far away from any police facility. So I mean that's one thing right there is that they do right. And they had even created an app for the officers to download on their phones that have one touch phone numbers for suicide hotlines for police officers. They have a list of all the clinicians you can run by your zip code and it'll give you a list of all the clinicians by where you live. Because here in San Francisco you've got to live an hour from the city because it's so darn expensive. Oh yeah, could you not? So no, you will definitely get you that information. 

01:07:26 Cinnamon: And it's called the behavioral blank unit. What's that? 

01:07:30 David: Behavioral science unit. Yeah, behavioral science unit. And departments from throughout the Bay Area and, surprisingly, some of the larger departments in the Bay Area who'd had some recent incidents with officers had no idea what to do and they had to call down to our unit. They didn't even know where to send these guys, which is, if you're a pretty big department in Silicon Valley, you should have already had a handle on this, and this particular agency had they don't. They don't a lot and it doesn't matter the size, but again, they're getting better at it. 

01:08:02 Cinnamon: This is not a proactive thing. 

01:08:04 David: No no. 

01:08:06 Cinnamon: We are still behind the eight ball, so it's like when something happens, that's when we figure it out. 

01:08:15 David: Yeah, still reactionary, very reactionary. And usually not the right reaction, unfortunately still. 

01:08:22 Cinnamon: Yeah, that's what it takes it just they got to get over themselves. 

01:08:28 David: Yeah, so yeah, they do. I agree it's a lot of egos out there, unfortunately too.

01:08:33 Cinnamon: And it takes going through it, and you know the guys who haven't been through it, the guys that haven't been through it, are the ones that are talking smack. 

01:08:41 David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:08:44 Erin: Right. And people are not going to like that. I'm going to say this, but I'm saying it. Ego is fear, it is fear. Yeah, like through and through. And then you throw in the politics and the way things have always been done this is not what we've done before and you're in a shitstorm. So we're very blessed and lucky that there's people that are stepping up like not to toot our horns with the three of us and many, many, many others. 

01:09:08 Erin: I mean, I'm thrilled every day how many new people I've run into. It's like this boat is freaking going now and again, just like the ripple effect of the wave. It's like this boat is going to... One helps the other helps the other, and then, before you know it, we're an army bigger than the ego. 

01:09:27 David: Yeah, and that's what we need and we thought about. Yeah, the tide is changing. I think we're seeing that direction and it's just been everything that first responders have been through over the last two years. You know, difficulty with recruiting, the difficulty, retention and their seemingly results of burnout, and they're realizing you know we need to do a lot more to take care of our members. I know Mike was telling me I don't know if it's through the state or something, but there's actually funding now for mental health programs, for public safety agencies. I'm like that is great. We need more of that because that's the number one thing you'll get. 

01:10:04 David: Oh, we don't have the money thing. It's like trade. Well, we don't have the money thing. Well, you have the money for it. It's just you're spending on something else, those medical costs. You're paying out those lawsuits because of misconduct, because of untreated substance abuse, PTSD. You're paying for it. You have the money. You just need to decide how important is it for you to use that budget for this or for that, because you will pay one way or the other. There's no doubt in that. 

01:10:32 Cinnamon: And we work with a lot of departments. We help them write their grants. We implemented their wellness program. We work with a federally funded PCIS program and a neighboring state that it's all grant money. And I also know a lot of the departments were like what are you talking about? They missed it and it depends on who's getting the email, who's making it the priority. But it is out there and, like you said, you are paying for it one way or another. You just get to decide how you're gonna pay for it. 

01:11:06 David: Yeah, you're paying more than you would if you just paid for the prevention. 

01:11:10 Cinnamon: Yep, and I'm real clear when I have, I'll just say, chiefs, but like leadership in general who wanna argue with my call of like you send them home. And they're like, eh, and I'm like, okay, one, it's better for them. But if you don't respond to that, then I'm gonna just tell you they are a liability and you do not want them wearing your uniform because it's gonna be bad and it's kind of like you gotta say it in 10 million ways for the people who need to hear it to hear it. So if it's not have empathy or take care of your people and shortages or overtime or staffing is an issue. Okay, well then, let's not get y'all sued because somebody had excessive force or went off on someone or whatever it is. It's just better if we let them go shift out of fight or flight while they're not wearing the uniform. All right, Erin, you gonna wrap this up? I? 

01:12:18 Erin: I know, I know. Well, I don't know that I'm the rapper-upper necessarily, but I do tend to kind of say it's time to go. 

01:12:25 Cinnamon: You're usually telling me. 

01:12:27 Erin: And well, only because I know that you have Right, I have more important things to do here in like 20 minutes, but thank you so much for reaching out to us and you call him Mike. We call him Mike. Yeah, it sounds so sophisticated. 

01:12:41 David: I think he prefers Michael.

01:12:45 Erin: Mr. Segrue. 

01:12:46 David: Mr. Segrue. 

01:12:48 Erin: No, but I'm so glad that you guys had a chance to like talk about this show and that you were open and willing, and actually you were the one that reached out and said hey, let me come on and tell my story. It's a doozy, and I know I'm not the only one. So thank you for taking that time and being so vulnerable and open and honest and direct and blunt and fearless is really the word that I can come up with is fearless. And I'm gonna go back to what I said in the very beginning of this episode, which is addiction does not discriminate. 

01:13:20 Erin: It does not matter. It can take anybody out and it can blindside you and you don't know, you didn't expect it. And it's fascinating to see how people are afraid that they don't wanna be that addict, they don't wanna be known as that and it's like you know it doesn't discriminate and if it happens to be you, it's gonna be okay. We can get you help. There is hope out there. 

01:13:45 Cinnamon: Well, this may be something that other people may disagree with, but one thing I've learned is I can't decide whether or not I'm gonna be in fact. As soon as you took a doctor prescribed prescription for a medical necessity, you didn't know that you were already wired for addiction. And there's so many of us who people believe like I didn't drink differently than my friends except until I did. 

01:14:17 Cinnamon: And I didn't know that. Nobody knew that for a long time. And so when you think about like oh, there are terrible person because they're an addict. No, I was following the rules, I was doing what everybody else was doing, what I didn't know, I didn't have all the information and that was. I was genetically wired to become addicted to the thing and that is not something that I need to be ashamed about, right. 

01:14:43 Erin: Yeah, it's like when you said that your buddies would be like oh man, I hate that. Stuff makes me feel like shit. 

01:14:50 Cinnamon: You're unbelievable. [crosstalk]

01:14:52 Erin: Yeah, I have people around me that are like that. I'm like, really that's interesting. Just makes me clean my house. So you know--

01:15:02 David: You too, right. I get energetic. Often the people then believe me.

01:15:06 Cinnamon: I'm so productive. 

01:15:08 David: Yeah, yeah, my productivity would go up. I would like not to glue good things down because I'm happy, I feel good. I mean, my happy stuff is all. 

01:15:15 Cinnamon: Right. Well, and that's what you said when you were like I don't think I want to, as you were getting titrated down. You're like in the last few weeks, I didn't want to stop. I missed that feeling and in those moments, it's not like we have 2020 hindsight and we realize what's happening. We're not like oh, here's my crossroads to whether or not I'm going to become a full blown addict, or if I'm going to. You know, like you can think I still need this. I don't feel as good without this, so I must need it. 

01:15:54 Cinnamon: And then, by the time you figure out what was happening, that moment has so long ago passed, and I think if addicts and alcoholics people with substance abuse issues talk more about their experience, the minutiae of that experience, then that's where we stop. The stigma is not the shit that I did that separated me, but how easily it just snuck into my own life and I never saw what was coming. Yeah, yeah. 

01:16:28 Erin: Well, I just had this great idea what we get to like take the show on the road and get all these people that have struggled with substances and we're just going to take it on the road and we're just going to have a big conference or something with all of you guys. 

01:16:41 David: Oh, I would. I would show up, you'd see me there. 

01:16:45 Erin: Screaming and dreaming. Screaming and dreaming. 

01:16:46 Cinnamon: Every Tuesday evening at 7PM we have a meeting called Badges and Bottles and it's a 12-step integrated meeting. So it's not like the singleness of purpose. If you need to talk about mental health, if you need to talk about drugs, if you need to talk about alcohol, if you need to talk about PTS, it's all in and it's only for first responders and us, like we go. But I think the more we have people aware that you can get into one of these meetings and it doesn't have to be anybody that you know, then we can at least get people to dip their toe in and see what it's like. 

01:17:27 Cinnamon: We tell them all the time keep your camera off, change your name on the Zoom call and just listen and listen to see if anything connects for you. And maybe one day you'll listen and feel okay to turn the camera on or put in your real name. But we have people from all over the country so you get a good feel of recovery. 

01:17:52 David: And a format, that processing type group. I like the 12-step program. I think it is fantastic. I think everyone should give it a shot. I know me personally. I've gotten a lot more just besides the therapy but out of just processing, just being able to. The best day meetings I've been to are like that, that are just organic. You might do a reading, but then the rest of the conversation is nothing about the reading, it's just about somebody's start to conversation. This is what's going on with me today and I would just love to see that pre-addiction just in general, just a big part of first responders. 

01:18:29 David: I've had conversations of some of the differences between working in a fire station and a police station. And I think firefighters have a little better opportunity of processing because they go to a call, they handle their call and then they come back to the station and they get to sit down at their table and we don't get that law enforcement and I wish we could. And it's difficult because that's not the model of police, because to me at the station they hang out. I mean the kind of thing is nowadays because nobody wants to be out on the street, because they're afraid of getting in trouble. 

01:19:02 David: But now I would love to see those kinds of processing groups should come more available and anonymous ones, because, yeah, it is hard to start in a group. But once you get there, once you feel comfortable, and then you become comfortable with those people in your group and you're like, okay, you know what? I'm willing now to show my face and to show my name and maybe say where I'm from, because I hate that term safe space, but it does become a safe space for it that it's you to be in this group and say what you need to say. And processing, because processing is huge. 

01:19:38 David: We don't do enough of that and when we do, we do our debrief. A one or two day debrief is not enough. You got to debrief your life daily. Yeah, ideas for gratitude and journaling and all those other things that we learn are fantastic. And mindfulness. I tell people all this, all this thing. I grew up with a big. My mom's a big hippie. She knew I was gonna stay on the air, so she asked to accept that fact, big pot smoking, hippie. All that hippie stuff when I was a kid I'm the guy that jumping around to you like why. She must imagine a little bit of everything I'm gonna have to say. 

01:20:15 Cinnamon: Let's just call it tactical. As long as you had tactical at the beginning, it gets way cooler. Tactical breathing. The first time somebody taught me tactical breathing I was like shut up, don't tell me you don't know how to do mindfulness. As you're literally teaching me mindfulness. Oh my gosh, I actually had a client that really, really struggled with mindfulness and as I was getting ready to go to something we call fire ops, where you like go play firefighter for a day and do all the things he's like, if you're in the SCBA gear and you start to struggle, just do this and I was like you are kidding. That is exactly what you've been telling me you can't do for a month. I can't keep you. 

01:21:01 David: So, it's true, yeah. 

01:21:03 Cinnamon: Tactical journaling. 

01:21:05 David: Tactical journaling. 

01:21:06 Cinnamon: We're going to do tactical journaling. 

01:21:09  David: There's my next sales idea. I'm going to create a tactical journal and sell it on Amazon. There we go.

01:21:14 Erin: here you go. 

01:21:16 Cinnamon: Only if you could start.

01:21:17 Erin: All right, we got to wrap it up.

01:21:20 Cinnamon: Obviously we, the three of us will stay all day. 

01:21:22 Erin: This is so much fun. 

01:21:23 Cinnamon: If our guests want to contact you, would it be okay if you allowed us to put an email address or something in our show notes. 

01:21:31  David: Yes, okay, Linkedin is a great spot. And then, yeah, so you can use my email. You can put that on the one I contacted you from that. Please put it in the notes. That's what that's there for.

01:121:42 Cinnamon: Perfect. 

01:21:43 Erin: Awesome. This is just the beginning, sir, I can tell. All right you didn't guess. 

01:21:49 Cinnamon: We'll see you at our annual journal brainstorming. 

01:21:52 David: Yes. 

01:21:52 Cinnamon: Conference. Tactical journaling.

01:21:53 David: Tactical journaling, tactical journaling. 

01:21:55 Cinnamon: Tactical journaling. 

01:21:58 Erin: Thank you for joining us for today's episode of After the Tones Drop. Today's show has been brought to you by Whole House Counseling. As a note, After the Tones Drop is for informational purposes only and does not constitute for medical or psychological advice. It is not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Please contact a local mental health professional in your area if you are in need of any assistance. You can also visit AfterTheTonesDrop.com and click on our resources tab for an abundance of helpful information. And we would like to give a very special thank you and shout out to Vens Adams, Yeti, and Sanda for our show's music.