Dispatcher Mind Dive: With Ryan Dedmon

EP63: Dispatcher Mind Dive

00:00:00 Cinnamon: It's the first responder, the first to get the call, the first on scene, greeted by God knows what, pushed beyond the limits that they don't even set. Then what happens? You're listening to After The Tones Drop. We're your hosts. I'm Cinnamon, a first responder trauma therapist.

00:00:26 Erin: And I'm Erin. I'm a first responder integration coach.

00:00:31 Cinnamon: Our show brings you stories from real first responders, the tools they've learned, the changes they've made, and the lives they now get to live.

00:00:49 Erin: A quick heads up before we start. We want to acknowledge that some of the content we discuss on our show can be triggering for some listeners. Some of our episodes may touch upon themes like traumatic experiences, PTSD, suicide, and line-of-duty deaths. We understand that these topics are sensitive and might evoke difficult emotions. If you are currently struggling with your mental health or have experienced traumatic events recently, listen with caution. Now, if you're ready to proceed, let's begin.

00:01:22 Erin: So you two met in a conference. Tell me more.

00:01:27 Cinnamon: So it had to have been Columbus, because it wouldn't have been South Bend. It would have been Columbus. And I remember I was sitting where we were tabling at our table, and I had just finished speaking, and that adrenaline dump when you're done, and you're like, bleh. And so I'm sitting there trying to like, just come back into my natural state of being. And all of a sudden I hear, but where's Cinnamon? And I look up and Ryan is asking where I was and what my answer was because he had the entire room standing up on their feet in these little circles. 

00:02:07 Cinnamon: And I'm like, huh? You know when you get caught by the teacher and they say your name and all of a sudden you're like, shit, you're on the spot and you don't know the answer because you don't even know the question. And you're like, 47. Like that's what happened with Ryan. And so I started actually paying attention to what he was doing. And his level of enthusiasm was competitive. Right? 

00:02:35 Erin: With you or with everybody else? 

00:02:38 Cinnamon: Either/or, like, he just had this bounce in his step and he was super excited to share the information that he was presenting on. And he managed to get 200 people to get up out of their chair and get around the edges of the room and fully participate in a participation activity, which we know is so– 

00:03:02 Erin: Like an exercise? 

00:03:03 Cinnamon: Yes. And so right then and there, I was like, okay, I got to pay attention to this guy because if he can manage to get all these people out of their seats without threats of violence, I'm impressed.

00:03:14 Erin: Not even people, first responders. 

00:03:16 Cinnamon: First responders, right? 

00:03:17 Erin: With their arms crossed, looking at you like you're crazy. 

00:03:20 Cinnamon: And he was fantastic. His presentation style just knocked me on my butt a little bit. And I was very excited because at that conference, you were probably one of the only people that talked directly to the dispatchers as one of their own. And that's so impressive because I feel like the history of these conferences in general, mental health conferences for first responders, is that dispatchers don't always get the same level of inclusion. 

00:03:53 Cinnamon: So that was in part why I wanted you to come hang out with us here because we're trying to normalize and create that balance of like, actually, if we're going to use labels, dispatchers are the first responders. And–

00:04:10 Erin: That's what we say. 

00:04:12 Cinnamon: That's important. Nobody can do their job without the dispatchers. 

00:04:16 Ryan: Thank you, ma'am. Erin, it just cost me 20 bucks to have Cinnamon say all those nice, wonderful things about me. 

00:04:23 Erin: Well, I know that.

00:04:24 Ryan: Money well paid. 

00:04:25 Cinnamon: And that's a discounted rate. 

00:04:27 Erin: Yeah. I mean, I'm sure she gave you a Groupon or something, but it was worth it. Yeah, it was worth it. So was this in Columbus when I left, or was this the old? The one, the Columbus before that, was this the most recent one? 

00:04:41 Cinnamon: No. This was the one that you left because you were unwell. 

00:04:45 Erin: Because I got bossed out.

00:04:46 Ryan: You were there?

00:04:47 Erin: I was there except Cinnamon announced during her presentation that I was there with a fever and people didn't like that. And so I left. She was implying that I'm a hard ass worker and that I show up no matter what. 

00:04:57 Cinnamon: Yeah. And everybody freaked out ‘cause of COVID stuff. So yes, Erin, I finished my presentation and then you left and Ryan was right after me. So you would have missed. I mean, it felt very much like jazzercise. Like the woman who leads the class is like working you up into a level of enthusiasm to get you to do all those things. Ryan reminds me of a jazzercise instructor. 

00:05:21 Ryan: Thanks.

00:05:22 Cinnamon: And he's like, I don't know if that's a compliment or not. 

00:05:26 Ryan: Thank you. 

00:05:28 Erin: Ryan is in California. And so he was explaining that it's before his coffee kicks in and here in Ohio, it is noon. So we're kind of ahead of the game a little bit, but we're excited to have you, Ryan. Thanks for joining us bright and early for you in the morning. 

00:05:46 Ryan: Thank you. Thank you, Ma'am.

00:05:47 Cinnamon: We probably should explain other than me seeing him in a conference, like why I would have wanted Ryan to come on. Because Ryan, you are the outreach director for the 911 Training Institute–

00:05:59 Ryan: Yes.

00:05:59 Cinnamon: Which it's a private company, but it's specifically geared towards providing training and consulting services. But before that, you got like a big deal award. So you've retired from police dispatching in Southern California, but in 2012, you earned the Telecommunicator of the Year award from the Southern California chapter of the APCO International. That's kind of a big deal. 

00:06:26 Cinnamon: And so now this is your world since retiring in 2013, where you train public safety officers in how to blend their experience and your wisdom into ensuring that they're taking care of their mental health and specifically being able to identify the things that relate to post-traumatic stress or those critical incidents, the fallout of those things. So we're really glad to have you. 

00:06:55 Ryan: Oh, thank you. It's my pleasure to join you. 

00:06:58 Cinnamon: Look at him. I think the coffee is kicking in. 

00:07:01 Ryan: It's getting there. I have to work up to this personification that you have built up for me. 

00:07:07 Cinnamon: Well, he's also a… blatantly a piece of shit. I mean, he won an award, but he's actually not that nice. I've seen him bully small children and dogs. 

00:07:21 Ryan: They all deserved it.

00:07:22 Cinnamon: Right? So there we neutralized it. Now you can just be your authentic self. 

00:07:28 Ryan: Yes. Thank you. 

00:07:30 Erin: Since we're talking about the conferences, about what you share with the individuals when you're there. What are you passionate about and why is this important to you? 

00:07:39 Ryan: To provide a little context, 1st Responder Conferences is an organization founded by Shawn Thomas, who is a retired law enforcement officer from the state of Washington. And she has identified and brought together different subject matter experts from different fields of public safety based on their background, training and experience. We have some pretty powerful personal stories to share, reference their own mental health challenges they've experienced in life. 

00:08:09 Ryan: And then of course, matched and married with that, she brings in some clinical mental health professionals who have the cultural competency to talk to an audience of 1st Responders. 1st responders are a challenging group of people to speak in front of. So it takes a special mental health professional to have the competence and comfortability to do that in a room of 200, 300 first responders. So when you bring all of those speakers together to talk about different topics, that's what 1st Responder Conferences is. 

00:08:44 Ryan: So over the course of two days, it's a conference with different sessions, different speakers talking on different topics. My background is in law enforcement and then 911. And so a few years ago, somehow, some way I forget, I got introduced to Shawn. And she said, Hey, I realized that in putting on my conference, I was kind of missing the 911 aspect because she has lots of speakers and then attendees in the audience from military and law enforcement and fire services and EMS and corrections. 

00:09:19 Ryan: And she basically had everything checked off, but she kind of realized I'm kind of missing them, the 911 audience and so is that something you would be interested in helping deliver at my conference? I said, yeah, absolutely. I'd be more than happy to help in any way you see fit. And so, I know she's got a few people now from the 911 industry that she tries to incorporate at nearly every one of her conferences, and I think she hosts a conference somewhere in the country almost once a month, which is crazy to me. Is that just sounds like the most crazy schedule ever, but she and her team at her organization are organizing and coordinating these conferences at different places throughout the country. 

00:10:01 Ryan: And so Cinnamon and I have been talking about one coming up in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho in a couple of weeks. And then shortly following that is one in El Paso, Texas. And then I think she's got her calendar built out probably for the rest of 2024. So if you visit their website, 1st ResponderConferences.org.

00:10:20 Erin: Yeah, 1strc.org. 

00:10:22 Ryan: Oh, 1strc.org. Yeah, you should be able to see the calendar of events that they have coming up for the rest of the year. So I would highly recommend attending one. And I was one of those old school public safety professionals, and I didn't get a lot of mental health training when I started my career in the early 2000s. We, this is just not stuff that we talked about going through a police academy or going through other training classes. We didn't talk about how the traumatic incidents and the critical incidents are going to make you feel and how you need to cope with that stuff afterwards. 

00:10:59 Ryan: And so it was really exciting to learn about Shawn and her team who are actually putting on a full two-day conference that basically address lots of different aspects of the psychological and emotional aspects, challenges first responders might face after responding to traumatic calls. And then just the accumulation of stress from responding to those calls and how that can impact not just your career, but then also your personal life and your family life and then other things like your finances. Who would have ever thought that it could impact your finances, right? 

00:11:35 Ryan: And so there's lots of little topics like that within her menu, if you will, that she just brings together these powerful speakers who talk about all these things. And so if you're a first responder anywhere in the nation and you see that she's coming close to your region, I would highly encourage you just to check it out. Go once and learn about all those topics and meet the speakers and see if it doesn't help radically change your mindset. 

00:12:03 Cinnamon: Ryan, are you going anywhere else this year other than El Paso? 

00:12:08 Ryan: Not for 1st Responder conferences. 

00:12:11 Cinnamon: Okay.

00:12:11 Ryan: The outreach and engagement I do in my job. I go to lots of other conferences in the 911 industry. 

00:12:17 Cinnamon: Okay.

00:12:18 Ryan: So you talked about APCO, the Association of Public Safety Communications Officials, and then NENA, which is the National Emergency Number Association. And then some different other 911 coordinator associations throughout the country. I speak at a lot of conferences in the 911 industry, but 1st Responder conferences, El Paso, Texas is the only one I have this year on my calendar.

00:12:41 Cinnamon: I would love to find out where you are presenting or what those other conferences are, because I think the biggest thing that I feel like we don't have, whether it's in our clinical repertoire or in our private practice, is specific ways to help dispatchers when the experience of receiving those critical incident calls from behind the phone, when you have the visual and you're trying to, you know, the first responders can get another first responder to pull out of the scene, someone who is erratic, right? 

00:13:17 Cinnamon: And so they can do their work. But you all have to talk to that erratic person. And there is no, you know, somebody grab her so I can do CPR on her kid or whatever. And I would love to hear other 911 or communications folks talk about that experience. So I would love to go to one of those as a participant. So maybe afterwards you can give me that list. 

00:13:41 Ryan: Yes, ma'am. 

00:13:43 Erin: I agree. And I can also put it in our show notes. So if there's something that's open to the public, folks can follow you around and attend. And that was a great segue into one of my first questions, which is like, what are the unique experiences that you see dispatchers facing that, one, other first responders may want to know about, and two, dispatchers may want to be validated in. So both sides of the coin. 

00:14:07 Ryan: And there are some very unique stressors that dispatchers experience working in a communication center that other field responders don't experience. And it's not to say that it's any better or any worse, because that's not what this conversation is about, right? It's just different. And those differences between all fields of public safety means that we need to have clinical folks like you all who can help the first responder address those unique differences. Because that is going to provide the authentic validation that everyone needs to hear. 

00:14:44 Ryan: And we throw out the cliches, sayings like, it's okay not to be okay and you are not alone. Well, prove it, right? And the way that that's proven is through organized systems like peer support teams and CISM teams alongside mental health professionals who provide their expertise to come together to create comprehensive wellness programs at agencies to help the first responders address these things after handling these calls. 

00:15:13 Ryan: Dispatchers are a unique classification though, because traditionally, if you think about it, 911 system has been manned by civilians, but those civilians working in those emergency communication centers have long time been under the roof of either a law enforcement or a fire service agency, which are a very structured, regimented paramilitary organizations with sometimes sworn personnel, right? 

00:15:41 Ryan: And so the training that they experience as police officers and firefighters versus the training that dispatchers experience working in a comm center is different. And when we bring all those people together, based on their duties and responsibilities, we need to make sure that we're addressing the experiences that each of them can have. Traditionally, that hasn't really been done. And it's nobody's fault. 

00:16:06 Ryan: It's just been overlooked because when we look at the emergency response system, we see the black and white police cars and we see the big red fire trucks. Right. What you don't see is the person that you talk to over the phone when you first report that emergency. 

00:16:23 Erin: Right.

00:16:23 Ryan: And to your point, dispatchers providing that type of pre-arrival commands and instructions can be life-saving. If you did not have dispatchers giving instructions for CPR over the phone, and that's not done prior to the arrival of firefighters, paramedics, and EMTs, then you've significantly decreased the victim's patients, their survival rate. Right. And so it's that dispatcher that plays the critical component from the very beginning, which is the full spectrum now of the emergency response system because we know it starts with phone calls that are made to the comm center and it ends with everyone else in uniform who arrives on scene and then provides the physical help in person. 

00:17:08 Ryan: But for a long time, I think dispatchers have just been left out of the equation. And thanks to a lot of things, large membership organizations like APCO and NENA in the 911 industry. And then ever since 2016, 2017, things like government legislation now that reclassifies dispatchers as “1st Responders” in their respective states. That's helped. And then of course things like Hollywood, right? That has produced some very entertaining television dramas that highlight the work of 911 professionals. Accurate or not, at least they're in the show now, right? 

00:17:49 Erin: Yeah, we were talking about that Jake Gyllenhaal movie, Cinnamon, do you know what I'm talking about?

00:17:55 Ryan: Yeah. Yes, ma'am.

00:17:56 Erin: I can't remember what it's called, but all I know is, I was telling my husband, like, I have to turn this off right now because this is triggering me just watching it, which is wild. And I know he was like an officer that was sent to do whatever desk duty and the– 

00:18:12 Cinnamon: Disciplined.

00:18:13 Erin: Yeah, disciplined. But gosh, that is intense. But that's how I visualize, I imagine there are situations that are that intense. Maybe not the same kind, but same situation, but that intense. And I'm sorry to interrupt, but you had me thinking about that when you said that.

00:18:27 Ryan: It just proves the point that it's Hollywood, it's dramatized for entertainment. At least now we can all say that they're highlighting personnel who do that job and have those responsibilities of handling those emergency phone calls and that emergency radio traffic. And is an accurate portrayal in television and in the movies? Probably not. It's dramatized for entertainment, right? But at least it's bringing that role into the picture because that's never been done before. So there's that argument. 

00:19:03 Cinnamon: I would like to think that most people are aware that those shows, that depict police fire movies, that covered as much, like it's pretty clear that those are not accurate depictions. I would hope that we would figure out that there is a reason that we can call this entertainment. I have a lot of clients who won't watch certain shows because, the way they represent their field and it's very annoying to them. 

00:19:32 Cinnamon: But that comes from a place of privilege where there's been ER all the way back into the 90s. There's never been a shortage of police and hospital shows where how lucky are they to be able to say, I don't watch that because it's not accurate. There is a show that at least depicts you inaccurately, but everyone's aware and it does build up sensitivity or awareness to that particular profession.

00:20:00 Cinnamon: So you guys are like at the beginning of that gate. And it's again, not necessarily accurate, but thanks for putting us on the stage to be discussed and we can get more and more accurate as we go while keeping in the component of entertainment. 

00:20:15 Ryan: Yeah. I think that's, my opinion is that even though it's not accurate, we can argue about all of the technical inaccuracies. Okay. But at least now people working in those communication centers, 911 professionals are being included in the conversation now we haven't been in the past. So at the very least, thanks for the invitation to the party now. Right. And to your point, we can work out some of the details later reference how you depict us doing our jobs. That's a different conversation, but at least now it feels a little more inclusive when we talk about what public safety emergency response looks like. 

00:20:53 Ryan: In the past, all these shows, they show the police cars flying out the back gate of the station and they show the fire trucks rolling out the door as it opens. And you're like, oh, sweet. So that's when the emergency starts? Hmm, may day. It started five minutes ago by a frantic caller who made an emergency 911 call.

00:21:12 Erin: Yeah. So how have they changed things in the world of educating and supporting the dispatcher and understanding the depths of the stress that comes with this job?

00:21:24 Ryan: Yeah, in the last 10 years, there has been a significant shift in things like that. So national organizations like APCO and NENA, which are large membership organizations in the 911 industry that establish best practices for standardization, help develop different types of standards and guidelines internally for the 911 industry. And communication centers throughout the country are strongly encouraged to implement those things into their operations because that's what has been deemed as best practice. 

00:22:00 Ryan: So when we talk about things like dispatcher wellness and then things like CISM and peer support for 911, these organizations alongside subject matter experts from different fields who came together on working committees to help develop these best practices for the organization. Now the stuff is rolling out to the 911 industry nationwide in the last 10 years. So if you think about a training class called dispatcher wellness, I never had anything like that when I was still a working dispatcher, there was nothing like that. 

00:22:38 Ryan: We didn't talk about our emotional or psychological response and reactions to the trauma and to the chronic stress. We just didn't. It was almost like an unsaid expectation of like, you know what you're signing up for. So we're not going to deal with it. Not to mention just the workload in and of itself is something as soon as you get done handling one 911 call, you might have 10 other lines ringing right now, so you have to immediately jump to answer the next to the next, to the next, to the next, to the next, depending on where you live. 

00:23:13 Ryan: So there's things like that, that we learned how significant impacts on the overall health and wellness of 911 professionals. And I'd say prior to 2013, a lot of this was not openly and publicly discussed. And so in the last 10 years, more and more of this is coming out and these national organizations are working hard to have committees established that specifically address things like health and wellness of the people who work in this industry nationwide.

00:23:47 Cinnamon: I'm glad that you're saying this because even for us, when I think of the differences specifically around post-traumatic stress or the stress that comes after these critical incident, that isn't just another call that is, I think about how the visuals work, right? So you're not on scene, but that doesn't mean that you don't have to come up with a visual that is ideally somewhat accurate to be able to describe.

00:24:16 Cinnamon: And having that flow of calls come so fast that you have to hurry up and shift gears. When we talk about what law enforcement or fire or paramedicine, what their needs are after, that may look different. So what do you feel like are the unique experiences, endless call and problems, challenges for dispatchers because of the difference in how they experience that critical incident and what their role is.

00:24:49 Ryan: Yeah, there's a few. So if you think about working in a communication center, the only contact you have with the outside world is either via a radio or a telephone. And so that's how emergencies are then reporting either from the public via telephone or internally from your first responders working out in the field via a radio, right? I think it's human nature to try and grasp some type of understanding of the trauma to which you're exposed. So I think it's just human nature to ask questions like why and how. 

00:25:25 Ryan: And in order to try to answer those questions, you formulate this picture in your mind of what has then been reported to you. So as dispatchers are talking to callers on the 911 emergency line, it's not unusual for a dispatcher to formulate this picture in his or her mind of what is actually being reported, because I can't see anything, I only hear, right? The challenge with that is, oftentimes, what we formulate in our mind is the creative genius of our imagination, and it might not always be an accurate portrayal of what is actually happening in real time that is being reported. 

00:26:07 Ryan: An example might be something like a caller who is reporting some type of neighbor disturbance because they hear the neighbor in their next door apartment yelling and screaming and things being thrown around. To the caller, it sounds like someone is being murdered right now. And so they call that in and they're frantic and they're excited trying to report this information. And then the dispatcher can hear the level of excitement and stress and the caller's voice and the dispatcher might hear background noises of the things being thrown around and shouting, right? 

00:26:44 Ryan: And so you formulate this picture like, oh goodness, we have to send help right away and we have to get there as soon as possible because something terrible is happening. And then we get there and we find out that it's just a Super Bowl party and the 49er fans are going crazy because the team just didn't pull it off and win now, right? But you don't know that. And based on the limited amount of information you have and the lens by which it is delivered to you, because of those filters, you don't have the comprehensive picture of what is actually occurring. So that's the first problem. 

00:27:19 Ryan: The second problem to that is a lot of dispatchers and communication centers across the country don't have the availability of meeting with their first responders to correct that portrayal. So it's left to whatever the dispatcher created in their mind. And so you don't always have the police officer who calls the communication center afterwards and says, Hey, just want to let you know it was nothing. Don't worry. It was just some neighbors having a Superbowl party and things got a little out of hand and people were going crazy hooting and hollering. 

00:27:52 Ryan: And then the dispatcher would be like, Oh, okay. Huh. Right. Great relief processing and relief, but a lot of communication centers, they don't operate that way, and you don't have that firsthand connection with your first responders who are then able to share the inaccurate sees in the portrayal you created in your mind. So then as a dispatcher, you're just kind of left with this picture, like, oh, someone just got murdered. And then you go on to the next call and then you go on to the next call and you go on to the next call. 

00:28:23 Ryan: And then that I think creates very strong feelings of helplessness. It's one thing to be a first responder on scene, on your knees, kneeling next to a victim or a patient and doing physical work to provide that person with aid. It's another thing to be a dispatcher miles and miles away in a communication center tethered by a headset to a computer system and feel like the only thing you can do is type and talk. And granted, those are life-saving measures, but you're not there in person. And so you don't have… 

00:28:59 Ryan: Sometimes the feelings of relief and satisfaction of seeing your work well done because this patient was revived or this patient was provided first aid or suspect was apprehended. And because of that, sometimes I think dispatchers have strong feelings of helplessness regarding some of the emergencies that they handle. 

00:29:22 Ryan: And when you pack all of that together, it just creates the perfect storm, if you will, of psychological and emotional challenges that are unique then to 911 professionals that other field responders just don't experience while they carry out their duties and responsibilities on scene. 

00:29:41 Cinnamon: So one of the things that you mentioned, and it made my brain start asking these questions, is I know there's a medical protocol, right? So there are going to be some things that are standard. But one of the things that we know about fight or flight when we're in that elevated state, to be able to handle these stressful situations and then eventually be able to come down, right? It's a protective mechanism. But we know one of the things that happens is that prefrontal cortex where our logic, creativity, rational mind is existing. 

00:30:20 Cinnamon: So maybe when we look at how folks train, there are some standardized, very rote actions I could do without necessarily thinking through them. But for your dispatchers, they have, every single thing is unique. I'm not saying that the other, like other runs for police or fire or paramedics aren't unique, but it just feels like there's this additional layer of I have to keep my prefrontal cortex on because I have to listen. I have to download.  I have to translate and then I have to output again. 

00:31:02 Cinnamon: And that is gonna be more of a challenge than if I'm on the scene, I have not only my ears, but I have my eyes, I have all of my senses to be able to figure this out. But for telecommunication emergency dispatchers, they are fighting against that very core functioning of having that prefrontal cortex shut down while they actually still need it. So part of that is you have to stay calm to not shift into that. And I feel like that's a little bit different when you're behind the phone or the radio than it might be when you're on scene. 

00:31:44 Ryan: Yeah. It's similar, but it's different. And I can speak to that a little bit because for a short time in my career, I was a police officer working out in the field. And so then as a police officer confronting people that I had to take into custody that fight or flight experience is different. Experienced in, communication center exposed to the same stress and to the same trauma with the same reaction. But am I in physical danger where I feel like I'm going to have to fight someone? No. Do I feel like I need to run away from some type of danger? No. What's more apt to happen in a communication center is freezing. 

00:32:24 Ryan: So there's fight or flight, but then there's also freeze. And that's what dispatchers are probably more likely to experience as a stress response. Remember, everything is just heard. So that sensory overload is auditory only because you don't have the opportunity to filter these things through your other four senses. It's just all hearing. And so that stress can quickly become overwhelming.

00:32:55 Ryan: However, I think 911 professionals are no different from police, fire or EMS in the fact that the training that they receive in order to do their job, top notch and exemplary. You don't just apply to be a dispatcher and then given a headset the next day and say, okay, start handling 911 calls. You go through a very robust training program in order to be able to do that. And through that training program, you learn things like different types of call protocols, sentiment that you talk about like emergency medical dispatching. 

00:33:28 Ryan: So you learn how to ground yourself and cope in near real time. The 911 industry is doing a better job of sharing these tools and techniques with dispatchers through training at the beginning of their career. Instead of just, hey, now you've been a dispatcher for five years and you're experiencing the stress after handling some of these calls. Now let's help you address that fight or flight or freeze response that you feel like you're still experiencing. 

00:34:00 Ryan: And there's lots of different types of grounding tools and techniques and breathing techniques. Tactical breathing, heart focused breathing, different kinds of things that can help mitigate that stress response in real time. What we also need to do though, then, is after mitigating it in real time is that we need to sit down and we really need to process afterwards when everything is safe. Safe for the first responders on scene, safe for the callers, the victims, witnesses, passersby on scene, everything is now safe and controlled. Maybe that's right after you handled the call. Maybe that's after your shift. Whenever you need to now fully process what you've experienced.

00:34:46 Erin: Yeah. I think that's excellent that they're teaching proactive tools, in the forefront because that's kind of what we've been talking about for a long time is how do we get these tools in the academies so that they have them prior? Now granted something that we have heard people say is oh, yeah, that's them. It'll happen to them, but not me. There is that stubborn mentality or that like I am untouchable mentality sometimes going in with the personalities of folks that become first responders. And so they might not believe it anyway. They might be like, whatever, breathing. 

00:35:21 Erin: But it is so important that they at least have it somewhere in this filing cabinet, even if it's in the back of their head, that there are those tools that they can pull out in those events. But that being said, the other tricky part is, remembering to use them, like we might have all the tools in the world, but we are just completely off the rails and don't remember to use them when they're the most important. 

00:35:45 Erin: So it's teaching them how to practice in the moment, which would mean going back after these incidents happen and say, okay, now let's practice this tactical breathing or these in that moment so that it becomes a secondhand thing that they do automatically versus later down the road. They're like, oh crap, I remember I knew that breathing exercise. Does that make sense? 

00:36:09 Ryan: You're not wrong at all. And I think a lot of first responders called NACE to those types of things because we have some very strong reservations about them working for us. And so at the beginning of our conversation, Cinnamon was talking about this exercise that I like to try and do at first responder conferences. The reason I like to try and do that exercise is because I can prove that this stuff does work. And if I can prove that it works and I can show you that it works, you're going to be more apt to buy into it. 

00:36:38 Ryan: After buying into it though, we need to change our mindset about when we utilize these things. So let's use, for example, purposes, something like a CISM team or a peer support team at a public safety agency. If the only time that those teams are ever activating is after the bad calls happen, then you're creating this narrative that these things only work during the bad times and we don't need to utilize them in between. And so then we just stuff them away in a toolbox that ends up in our closet, but then ends up out in the garage. And then these skill sets become long forgotten. 

00:37:20 Ryan: I like to try to remind first responders that this stuff, it doesn't just work during the bad times, it also works during the good times. And a lot of these different types of skills you can utilize at any point in time, in your life, at any point in time throughout the day. And then there are things that you can gauge whether or not they are working for you. And if it's not working for you, then that's when you can pitch it and you can go on to something else. Because that's the beautiful thing about wellness is that I don't think there's any type of magic formula for wellness in all of us. 

00:37:56 Ryan: Because what I like to do for my personal wellness is not what either of you ladies like to do. Right. I like to be very physically active. I want to go out and run. I like to, I'm a long distance runner. And for a lot of people, they're like, you run for fun? No, no, no. I would never. And it's like, well, you don't have to. You find the things in your life that work for you. 

00:38:18 Ryan: And so there's no standardized magic formula that we can just bottle and then sell universally to say, this is all you have to do in order to optimize your personal health and wellness, because that's not how the human body or the human mind works and that's okay. I like the idea of having lots of different kinds of tools in your toolbox. And then you use what you know works best for you at the time when you feel like you need it the most. 

00:38:53 Erin: Yeah, you're right. We aren't runners. You will not catch us out there. Nope. 

00:38:58 Cinnamon: Nope.

00:38:59 Ryan: That's okay. I'm getting a little too old. 

00:39:01 Cinnamon: You know, how you hear people say, you're not gonna catch me running unless somebody's chasing me? I'm like, why would I? I would rather conserve my energy to fight because I know they're going to catch me, but I can kick ass. I cannot run far, but I can throw one hell of a punch. So I think of it as more of a conservation mindset. You're welcome. So the one thing that I thought about as you were saying this, we've seen both in conference kind of large spaces as well as a one-on-one effort. That idea of how, is breathing going to help my situation? Like it's not going to change what happened and whatever. 

00:39:43 Cinnamon: And I think that the way that I frame it for people and tell me if this is your experience of it too, is tactical breathing or grounding breathing, the breathing exercises that we do, they're not to necessarily change what happened. Breathing does not do that. But what I try to explain to people is, it is the most natural organic built in counter effect or counter tool to that fight or flight nervous system response, but it's about keeping that prefrontal cortex on. So it doesn't hijack you where you can't think straight. It's just allowing you to be open to a change in perspective. 

00:40:30 Cinnamon: And nobody can tell me that this isn't the worst thing ever or it's not my fault when something goes wrong. If I am in that state of self-protection, but if I can use it to keep myself calm or bring myself back to a calm place, I can hear or think of things more rationally so it doesn't go down that rabbit hole of, I screwed up, I made a mistake, this was really bad, what could I have done differently or I should have done, you know, whatever. 

00:41:03 Cinnamon: So I think it also is about the way that we explain what help will look like. If we say breathing will help, then we need to help them understand what that help looks like and it doesn't necessarily mean it changes the situation or even the tragedy of it, but it allows us more room to think through a different perspective rather than that initial one. 

00:41:29 Ryan: Exactly. I'm Gen X. So I love using the illustration of electronic devices because Gen X remembers what it's like to live life prior to having a cell phone or a tablet at your disposal with all the information in the world, a message away. And so I like to use that illustration because if we go back to things like those different types of breathing techniques, to your point, it's not meant to help you or make you forget that the bad things happened, it's meant to help you reboot, if you will. 

00:42:07 Ryan: And if you think of your cell phone or your computer or your laptop, when you have too many windows and tabs and tasks running, your operating system isn't operating at its maximum level because you're just trying to do too many things at once. And when we do that, oftentimes things, they freeze, they crash, you get the little spinning wheel of death, all of that thing. And so those breathing techniques kind of help you reboot everything, if you will. And once your system is rebooted, if we can reboot your physiology, all of it, mind, body, soul, everything, then now once you're grounded, now we can talk about processing through the bad things that you just experienced. 

00:42:55 Ryan: So I really like using electronic devices as an illustration because we can all relate. Because no matter where I go in a training class or at a conference, everyone has a cell phone in their back pocket or on the table in front of them. And everyone can look at it and see, oh yeah, you know what? My phone's not working like it should because I have a bazillion apps open and running right now. Though if I close out some of those, maybe now I can send that text message I was trying to send a few minutes ago. 

00:43:24 Ryan: When we talk about things like recharging your battery or refilling your cup or whatever term you want to say, that's why I like the electronic device illustration is because everyone can relate to looking at your cell phone and seeing the battery level at 10%. And we all freak out because we're like, oh my gosh, I need to plug in and charge that somewhere right now. Well, we have that attitude-mindset about our personal handheld electronic devices, but we don't have that attitude-mindset about taking care of ourselves. 

00:43:51 Ryan: And that's where we just need to shift our mindsets to remind ourselves. This is what you need to do in life to take care of yourself. And if you can't take care of yourself, are you going to be able to take care of other people? Well, the answer is probably not. At least not to the best of your ability. And we want our first responders to feel like they are working to the best of their ability. But beyond that, as a former first responder, and then you all as clinicians serving that population, we want first responders to feel like they are living at the best of their ability. 

00:44:27 Ryan: And so it goes beyond just the job then at that point, because all of these things, these tools that we share through training, they apply throughout different aspects of life. 

00:44:40 Erin: Yeah, you're right. We don't want them just to like, get by. We want it to be something that they can use throughout every facet of their life. 

00:44:49 Ryan: Right. Congratulations. I shared a tool with you to help you be a better dispatcher and now you're retired. So thank you for your service off into the sunset. Good luck to you. Blessings. 

00:44:59 Erin: Right. 

00:45:00 Ryan: But that's not what we want. We want all first responders to feel like they crossed the finish line. They did a job well done. They ran their race and now they can live their best life to their fullest. And so all of the things that we share regarding mental health and wellness, we want it to be the full package, if you will, to make them better people, not just first responders. Yes, that's the goal, to make them better first responders, but we also want to make them better people. 

00:45:29 Erin: Mm-hmm, absolutely. 

00:45:32 Cinnamon: I think that one of the challenges that we have yet to fully take on because we're still relatively new in this movement, this revolution in which our first responders break through that stigma and get the care that they need is that proactive versus reactive. Like we're so focused right now because it's so new, just being able to say, when you see stuff, oftentimes you're not going to be okay right away. And that is normal and expected. You are not above the reality of how this all works.

00:46:09 Cinnamon: But I think the biggest thing I see folks struggle with is when I say, okay, well, the answer to this is not just this one thing I want you to do. It is going to look like a lifestyle change. And whenever I think that or say that, or even hear it from somebody else, the first thing I think of is the misery of weight loss and how we're in that place now where people are like, you can't fad diet. You can't shove something in real quick before an event and then expect to keep that off. There are lifestyle changes that you would need to make. 

00:46:46 Cinnamon: And so when we see clients, a lot of times they do want some kind of quick fix for this feeling to go away and I'm uncomfortable in my skin, I don't like it, can you fix it? And it's how do we find that balance between, I can help give you some relief right now, but we're just going to be doing the same thing over and over and over again, unless that proactive work in between those really bad calls, when it is a little more rote and regular, that we're doing those things that change how we operate, whether that's running on the regular, whether that's adding something like meditation, whether that's cutting down on your caffeine, if it's getting to bed at a set time, whatever that is, that's the hard discussion. And I'd love to hear if you have any insights on how to, making that more palatable for our clientele. 

00:47:47 Ryan: Yeah, so if we unpack what you said just a little bit more, I think the first thing we need to shout from the mountaintops is that you're not broken. People aren't broken. So if you feel you're having some type of strong reaction or emotional psychological response to significant trauma you were just exposed to, it's normal to feel that. So we have to change that narrative immediately because for too long, we've lived by that old school suck it up buttercup emotional code by which we have just silently had these expectations that these things shall not bother you. And if they do, then that's a sign of weakness. And we do not tolerate weakness in public safety. 

00:48:34 Ryan: Law enforcement, fire, rescue, EMS, 911, corrections, any of it, all of it. We just do not, right? But it's not weakness, it's human nature. It's human nature to have that type of response when you are exposed to significant amounts of other human suffering. That's the first thing. The second is I like to think of it like a pie. So your mental health and wellness, if you think of a pie and then we start slicing that pie, there are going to be lots of different slices to your mental health and wellness, all in the same pie, but it's comprehensive now. And so there's not just one thing you can do. There's lots of different slices to this pie. There's not just one. 

00:49:28 Ryan: If we go to your example of weight loss, if you started some type of weight loss program, that program is going to have you do lots of different things to try and help you achieve your goal of weight loss. Not just one thing. Oh, exercise. Oh, really? Well, if it were that easy, then we would all just be out exercising and we would all be at our goal weight, right? But it's not just exercising. It's also nutrition. And it's also metabolic rate. So there's genetics involved. There's lots of slices to the pie of even something like weight loss. 

00:50:04 Ryan: And so if we look at mental health and wellness and first responders, there's lots of slices to the pie of that. So you need to have a buffet, if you will, of lots of things at your disposal that can provide you the extraordinary help services you need based on the extraordinary job you just did of providing aid to the public and responding to a call for service. So it does need to be proactive. 

00:50:34 Ryan: And here's another illustration for you, right? Is because if I'm a man over 40 and so I want to see my family doctor once a year for an annual physical, you would think nothing of that. You're like, yeah, Ryan, you should because you probably need to have your blood pressure checked regularly and your cholesterol. Well, 20 years ago, I was like, blood pressure, cholesterol. What is that? I'm a 20 something superhero first responder. I am invincible. Well, are you? 

00:51:04 Ryan: And so we need to change our mindset about that because if you would applaud me for going to receive an annual physical, then you should applaud me the same for seeking the professional services of a therapist as a check-in. And I love the illustration too of not just from the physical body perspective, but like, even if you just think about your car, what do you do, your car every 3000 miles? 

00:51:30 Erin: You get a tune up, you get the oil changed. 

00:51:32 Ryan: You change the oil. 

00:51:33 Erin: Right. 

00:51:33 Ryan: Why do you do that? 

00:51:35 Cinnamon: Maintenance. 

00:51:35 Ryan: Because you don't want your car to blow up in the middle of West Texas. Because then that's when you have to make the emergency call to AAA, and you gotta say, send a guy driving a thing with a doohickey who can fix my, whatever you call this. And that's what CISM is. They send the guy who shows up with all the little things and he patches you up and gets you back on your way. But the argument is, had you changed oil at 3000 miles, like you should have, would your car have blown up when it did? And if the answer is, well, maybe not, then that's when you really need to self assess and reevaluate implementing these types of things into your daily life.

00:52:17 Ryan: So these tools and techniques you do need to proactively use because they don't just work during the bad times, they work during the good times. When you are self-aware enough to recognize them working all of the time, that's when you are more likely to use them. Because I think that's one of the strongest pushbacks I get from first responders is that like, these things don't work. So why would I be proactively trying to use something that I don't feel like it works? And say, well, how do you know it doesn't work? Well, I don't feel I have no way to gauge. I just don't feel like it is. 

00:52:54 Ryan: And so, Cinnamon, that exercise you see me do on that one to 10 scale, that kind of helps quantify, if you will, a numeric change. And so if you feel like you're a 10 and then 10 minutes from now, I can show you now you feel like an eight. Well, we can say, yeah, eight is still bad, but is, as bad as a 10? No, we've just brought you down two notches, right? And so then that proves that this stuff works. And is it a magic all, catch all? No, that's why we go back to saying, I don't think anything in wellness is a magical catch all formula that we can bottle and sell. Cause if it were, the three of us would be living our best lives on an island in the South Pacific instead of working our backsides off to serve first responders that we care about. 

00:53:40 Erin: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it takes consistency and practice.

00:53:43 Ryan: We just have to change their attitude and the mindset because for too long they have just been unintentionally, maybe trained that we don't talk about this stuff in public safety, because the public persona of a paramedic EMT police officer firefighter needs to be that, dot da da dot, pound your chest, the superhero showing up to handle all of the things that us regular folk can't. And it's like, maybe, but by doing so we've, just like Hollywood, we've created this inaccurate image now of what we expect these people to do for us, and then what we expect them to feel and think afterwards. And that's what we need to change. 

00:54:27 Cinnamon: And I think to add into that is, even on the civilian side, the public, the community has this expectation of behavior that our first responders are supposed to take it and take it and take it and take it. And well, yes, the ideal is that they remain the consummate professional, but the reality is they're human, and they're going to have a human experience. Just like if my plumber gets frustrated because something under my kitchen sink isn't working, may hear them banging tools or cussing at inanimate objects as one does. And we have to be realistic about our expectations.

00:55:12 Cinnamon: Because I feel like we hear so many things on both sides where, like, oh, thank you for doing your job. Like I couldn't do it. It's so hard. And then we also hear you didn't behave well enough or you should be able to endure what's being dished out to you without having a human reaction. And that whole business of, you know what you signed up for. I've recently been having conversations about that with some clients and there's something that's really disturbing about that. It's that, yes, I may be able to know professionally, here are the things that I may face. 

00:55:50 Cinnamon: What I can't know and what I don't know is how I will react to seeing the things that I knowingly signed up to see. And so, while yes, that is a true statement, there's this underlying assumption in that, that therefore, since you knew what you were signing up for, you should be fine. But I can say, yeah, I knew bullet points, the things that I might see or experience or have to do, but nobody can know until they're in that situation because it is such an individualized response. 

00:56:26 Cinnamon: So when I have perhaps a whole crew of people or I can go to a median and pull in with another cop and kind of talk about something, what do we have for our dispatchers that depending on what the nature of the community is, it could be a whole warehouse size full of dispatchers or it can be one single person on that shift. And what can we put in place to make sure that those folks behind the phones and the radios are supported when we do have maybe not that same setup of peer support right then and there. 

00:57:05 Cinnamon: How do we get them the help that they need unless they reach out for it or don't think they should be fine or they don't want to say anything and they were the only person there. So nobody really knows their level of distress. That was a lot. 

00:57:20 Ryan: There's so much to talk about, right? 

00:57:23 Cinnamon: I have a tendency to do that.

00:57:25 Ryan: You just address so many things that the 911 industry is, one, playing catch-up on to correct some of these things from the beginning for folks early on in their career, but then two, helping agencies develop and build different types of systems into their operations in order to provide these resources to the first responders at those agencies. The public's perception, that's a tricky one, right? The general public is never going to call the amount of people who have to call 911 because of some type of emergency and they need immediate public safety response to where they're at because something is happening.

00:58:06 Ryan: Statistically is minimal compared to what we would think. And so as a result, the general public, your everyday Joe citizen walking down the street right now has probably not had to call 911 in his life or anything. So he doesn't know what to expect or how it works. So we, as a 911 industry, need to do a better job of educating the general public about what they will experience as a caller reporting something, how the system is going to work because of what the dispatcher is doing. And then if within all of that education, the dispatchers want to share information about things that they experience while carrying out their duties and responsibilities, go for it because it humanizes the position. 

00:58:55 Ryan: And I will always say that the best part of the emergency response system is the human element involved. The reason for that is just, think about having to call your credit card company to dispute a charge. You call the 1-800 number and you get the phone tree that's got 10 different options you have to listen to to press one for this and two for this. And so then you press number four because you think that's what you want. And then you're presented with more options. But none of those options address the problem that you're experiencing and you're like, oh my gosh, if I could just talk to a person right now, my issue could be resolved in two minutes.

00:59:31 Ryan: The same applies to reporting an emergency and requesting a response. It's that human element of the dispatcher you're talking to over the phone. It's that human element of the EMTs and the paramedics who show up on scene and provide you aid and care. It's that human element that makes it very relatable and special because without that, now we're just robots. And that, I think, is what we have unintentionally tried to train our first responders to be in the past. 

01:00:05 Ryan: You will see all this stuff, but you will process nothing, you will feel nothing, you will just robotically go on to the next, go on to the next, go on to the next until you clock out. Listen, nobody from the public wants that. They want that human connection. If for no other reason, because they're experiencing the worst day of their life, and they've called for assistance, they don't want robots to show up on scene. They want humans to show up on scene. They want humans to be involved in that infrastructure of the emergency response system. 

01:00:37 Ryan: Here's the flip side of the coin though, right? If we want humans to be so critically involved in that system, we have to know that sometimes they're gonna make mistakes because they're humans. And sometimes they're gonna feel things because they're humans. And sometimes they're gonna think things because they're humans. They're not AI. So from the public's perspective, that's what we have to try to remember. From the first responders perspective, we can't always expect our first responders to reach out when they're in crisis. 

01:01:10 Ryan: And I can say that from personal crisis I experienced upon my retirement. I did not have that knowledge, tools, resources, energy, know-how. I had none of that to be able to reach out. And so from a mental health professional standpoint and from a peer support team or a CISM team standpoint, we cannot just sit back and wait for our people to reach out to us. So I love stealing the catchphrase that my dear friend, Tracy Eldridge created. Tracy Eldridge is a retired 911 director from the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. And she's got this phrase that she says, “We can't expect them to reach out. So those of us who are able need to reach in.” 

01:02:01 Ryan: And that goes back to addressing some of the proactive things we want to build into our operations. We don't want to be reactively checking on our people only after the bad things happen, because they might feel like they're in a state of crisis when all of the rest of us would say, there is nothing happening right now to justify the state of crisis. It's just the straw that broke the camel's back and it happened to be on a Tuesday afternoon handling the most routine calls of all calls. But to that person now, that first responder who is in crisis, I don't think we can expect them in a state of crisis always, to have the knowledge, strength or ability to reach out when they need it. 

01:02:51 Ryan: So we need qualified people, both in the field of mental health like you all, but also, then within our own fields of public safety to proactively reach in and do that barometer check and figure out, where is everyone at working on this shift right now? How are they doing as individuals? And then collectively, how do we feel like we're doing as teams as a ship? And then organizationally, how are we doing as an agency? So there's different layers to this that we can try to peel back and examine our operations, but specifically looking at mental health and wellness. 

01:03:32 Erin: I'm impressed that you were able to answer like that after that question that she asked. 

01:03:36 Cinnamon: I'm like, did you write stuff down?

01:03:39 Ryan: No, and this is why things like training classes and even events like first responder conferences are so powerful, right? Because there's people like me who have experienced this firsthand in our career, and maybe at one point I experienced something and maybe something failed me along the way, and I don't want that to happen to anyone else. And so I want to share as much as I know, based on what I've experienced and how I've been trained and then my education and all of that, bring all that together to try and change the attitudes and mindsets of people and give them the resources that they need. 

01:04:15 Ryan: And then there's people like you all who bring that clinical expertise to the discussion as well. And that's something that I could never do, right? And through the marriage of that conversation, through experience, but then also your education and expertise, we kind of formulate a strategic plan on how we can implement some of these best practices in the day to day operations so that now this just doesn't become some type of theoretical conversation. 

01:04:42 Ryan: It's very practical in nature because your listeners know that, hey, I can find these resources here and I can bring these resources together to build this. And once this is in place in our operations, is it going to fix everything? No. But will it help address some of the challenges my folks experience? Yes.

01:05:01 Ryan: And if it helps those folks address those challenges, might they be more apt to come back to work tomorrow instead of feeling like you can take this job and shove it because retention rates for employment in fields of public safety is very low right now. And a lot of public safety agencies are dealing with challenges of staffing shortages in all capacities. Well, what's causing that? It's the accumulation of significant amounts of stress and trauma. 

01:05:30 Ryan: And one thing, just one thing to help address that might be having some of these systems in place. And so then you help your first responders, like you said, not just survive, but feel like they thrive during a 30 year career in public safety, instead of feeling like they are so burnt out after three years that they're done. 

01:05:54 Cinnamon: And you're losing, maybe some people might see it as, it's time for them to go, their burnout, their bitter. I know we talk about that in social work all the time, that idea of a children's services worker who is no longer kind or a teacher that's no longer kind. And instead of talking about how they need to go, can we be more proactive so they don't get to that place and then we lose all of that knowledge and experience? 

01:06:23 Ryan: Well, and that's… Cinnamon, you're getting me all fired up about the stuff I'm passionate about, right? Because that's the conversation we never had in the past. We felt like those people need to go because the level of service at which they are performing no longer meets our standards. We never stopped to ask the question of, what's causing that? We just said, hey, you're not cutting it, no more. You're no longer kind. You're not handing out stickers to the kids, smiles for free, it's time for you to retire like you're done. 

01:06:58 Ryan: But what if there are underlying issues that are causing that type of behavior in their minimal performance? And if we can address these issues, then doesn't that imply that we have then boosted their performance back to a level of what we expect? And if the answer is yes, then why do we want them to go? We don't want them to go. We need good qualified people to serve in these industries, right? But in public safety in the past, traditionally, we didn't stop to ask those questions. 

01:07:33 Ryan: To your point, we just said, hey, you know what? You've been here 10 years. You're already salty. You're already bitter. Yeah, it's time, you need to move on. You need to go because clearly you are not the police officer that we expect. You are no longer the police officer you were when you first started 10 years ago. 

01:07:51 Cinnamon: You have become the toxicity. 

01:07:54 Ryan: Yes, but are we not surprised what causes that toxicity? And it's the significant amounts of trauma to which they routinely respond to every day. And it doesn't matter if you're a big city firefighter or a rural firefighter, you respond to these most traumatic incidents in our public realm. And so then as a result, back to the human nature conversation, are we then not surprised that you might have trouble sleeping at night because you responded to the baby not breathing call? That's normal. 

01:08:30 Ryan: So let's have this conversation and then let's have the things in place to address the underlying issues that are causing these reactions and this behavior that we see because it's easy for us to see the outward display of a change in behavior, but it's not easy for us to see the emotional and psychological scars which have created that change in behavior. So let's figure out a way to help provide that responder aid when they feel like they're in the moment of crisis due to the things they're thinking and feeling so that we can help them stay. 

01:09:09 Ryan: We want them to stay. You want your social workers to stay. We want our nurses and doctors and healthcare professionals and mental health professionals and anyone who is in a helping industry to stay because we need you. 

01:09:23 Cinnamon: I did a training once and I only did it once. I haven't been brave enough to take it outside of one singular moment, but I have a training titled, They're Not an Asshole, They're Symptomatic. And it was one of those things where it was born out of discussions after a training. They're like, oh, you shouldn't make one called this. And so I actually did. But I think that, what that hits the nail right on the head, like we expect if somebody is bruised and impacted from the psychological trauma that they're going to behave in a way that automatically generates compassion and, ooh, let me help you. 

01:10:08 Cinnamon: Whereas realistically, a lot of times how that plays out is more of that asshole nature where you're not going to want to have empathy or sympathy. They're going to make you want to dislike them or just toss them to the side as a lost cause and get rid of them. And I think we miss out on so much when we don't fully understand the ways in fact, and maybe even the more likelier ways that trauma can present itself.

01:10:43 Ryan: Yeah, you're right. So I love illustrations and for your listeners, I don't know if they'll be able to watch this or see this, but I have a scar on my forearm that stretches almost from my elbow halfway down my forearm, because when I was a baby, I broke my arm, I wish I had some type of radical story to share, but I just flipped off the couch, hit the end of the coffee table and broke my arm. And because I was so young, doctors needed to put a metal rod in my forearm to make sure that the bone grew in place like it should. 

01:11:16 Ryan: Now I don't have the metal rod in my forearm anymore, but I have the doctor's signature and this nice scar on my forearm. You can see that. Cinnamon, have you ever broken your right arm? No, but right now, my right arm is able to do the exact same thing that your right arm is able to do. What is the only difference between both of our right arms is that I have this scar on mine and you don't. 

01:11:41 Cinnamon: But I may have a scar somewhere else or a bruise or a freckle or a mole that you don’t have.

01:11:47 Ryan: And I don't. Exactly, but because you can see the scar on my forearm, it's easy for you to understand. And if I would have any type of physical limitations or handicap, right. Because you're like, oh, that's a wicked scar or something clearly happened. So it makes sense that you can't raise your arm above your head anymore. But like I said, the issue with that regarding your mental health is that you can't see these scars up here. And because we can't see them, we don't have conversations about them. And when we don't have conversations about them, sometimes we unintentionally make people feel devalued because we're not thinking or feeling. 

01:12:33 Ryan: And then how is… that creates these radical degrees of separation then because they must feel like there is something wrong with them, because clearly they're thinking and feeling this, but we don't talk about it. All the rest of us don't talk about it. And if we do talk about it, we say, well, you're the odd one out because all the rest of us are fine. You shouldn't be thinking and feeling that. So we need to change the way that we have these conversations. 

01:13:00 Cinnamon: We really wanted to bring you on because of your area of expertise when it comes to emergency telecommunications, but man, today, Ryan, you have hit the nail on the head in so many ways that this episode is bringing so much to the table, more so than what we had expected when just looking at what your area of expertise is. And I really appreciate you bringing all this to the forefront and providing us, so many illustrations of how this works. 

01:13:31 Cinnamon: And I really only have one question for you because I think that this is something that we see and it doesn't always get encompassed in the mental health conversation is, what would you like law enforcement, fire service, paramedicine, those first responders that are getting dispatched? What would you like them to know about the dispatcher and their feelings towards those first responders? 

01:14:04 Cinnamon: Because I feel like we hear a lot of frustration as far as like, my gosh, why do I have to do another safety check or every so many minutes they want me to respond? And there's a little bit of aggravation, maybe on that side. And then on the dispatch side, when we hear from them, it's those are our babies. And we feel very responsible for their well-being. And we care about them. And we're devastated when something happens. I would love for law enforcement and fire EMS to know how they are being perceived by these dispatchers that could then give them pause when their first thought is aggravation or frustration or displeasure. 

01:14:53 Ryan: As a former police officer, very briefly, I've got that experience on that side of the radio too. So I know those feelings of frustrations when a dispatcher is sending you somewhere, asking you for information or telling you to do something. And we don't always know why, but then on the latter half of my career, working as a dispatcher, I know the frustrations that dispatchers can sometimes experience when officer Cinnamon is doing a check again, and she wants to run 10 license plates again. 

01:15:28 Ryan: So I think what it comes down to is that we are all part of the same greater system that provides extraordinary service to the public. And neither one of us could do the other's job and everyone needs one another. A dispatcher needs a firefighter just as much as a firefighter needs a police officer, just as much as he needs the dispatcher, just as much as she needs the EMT. It's one great big public safety family. And yes, we have different, beautiful, colored lines to represent the classifications and duties and responsibilities that we do. 

01:16:10 Ryan: But at the end of the day, those lines are all stripes on the same flag. And I think that's the best way to think about it. A dispatcher could never do a police officer's job no more than a police officer could do a dispatcher's job. Because if that were the case, then we wouldn't need one another. At that point in time, the emergency response system would just collapse. And so all of us, each of us are critical components to that emergency response that shows up and provides aid and rescue to the public on their worst days. 

01:16:45 Ryan: And having open conversations like this with one another, coming together at round tables and talking it out, having things like debriefings after critical incidents, provides everyone a comprehensive picture of that system as a whole, rather than the limited scope through the lens at which I just viewed my individual response. And when we think collectively then about the system, I think that's when we come to understand the critical nature by which all of us serve. 

01:17:26 Erin: I know, [Ryan], like, did you know she was gonna ask that question and prepare that answer?

01:17:31 Cinnamon: Damn, that felt a little Oscar-ish. 

01:17:33 Erin: Yeah, that's like a coffee mug, like a t-shirt response. I'm like, okay, coaster. Wow. Yeah, an Oscar speech. 

01:17:42 Cinnamon: I was not expecting that. 

01:17:44 Ryan: I've been there, done that, right? 

01:17:46 Erin: Mm-hmm. 

01:17:47 Ryan: I mean, no, I didn't have anything prepared, but that has been my experience when I was a first responder. And now that I'm no longer a first responder and I get to do speaking engagements and training classes, I hear the same frustrations. I gotta say, hey, wait a minute. Have you thought about it like this? 

01:18:06 Erin: Yeah. 

01:18:06 Ryan: And if we can change people's attitudes and mindsets about lots of things, then we can change the way that they work. And if we can change the way that they work, might, then can't we also change the way that they live. 

01:18:21 Cinnamon: Yeah. 

01:18:22 Erin: It's such a beautiful way to wrap things up today. And it's so lovely to meet you. I'm sorry that I missed you in real life and I imagine that our paths will cross where I will have that opportunity like Cinnamon did. But thank you for taking the time to come on and gosh, this has just been so juicy and full of beautiful knowledge and heart. And it's so valuable, everything that you provide. So thank you. 

01:18:49 Ryan: Oh, it has been my honor and pleasure to join you this morning. So look forward to meeting any of your listeners at a conference event that Cinnamon and I are both at, the rest of this year, encourage them to look into those types of opportunities and then come take a picture with Cinnamon. 

01:19:07 Cinnamon: Yes. And if I'm not available, Ryan will be carrying around my cardboard cutout. 

01:19:13 Ryan: Yes. 

01:19:14 Cinnamon: For the low, low price of five dollars, you can get a photo. Yeah, that would be great. We would love to see you and I can vouch for Ryan's phenomenal presentation. And there's so much to learn from it.

01:19:28 Erin: Absolutely. 

01:19:28 Ryan: Thank you.

01:19:35 Erin: Thank you for joining us for today's episode of After The Tones Drop. Today's show has been brought to you by Whole House Counseling. As a note, After The Tones Drop is for informational purposes only and does not constitute for medical or psychological advice. It is not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Please contact a local mental health professional in your area if you are in need of any assistance. You can also visit AfterTheTonesDrop.com and click on our resources tab for an abundance of helpful information. And we would like to give a very special thank you and shout out to Vens Adams, Yeti, and Sanda for our show's music.