Hotline Caller: Red Flags of Suicide

Ep4-Hotline Caller: Red Flags of Suicide

SUMMARY KEYWORDS
first responders, white flag, hug, suicide, hear, struggling, question, caller, people, red flags, head, person, friend, screaming, co worker, listeners, thought, life, experienced, hotline, police, law enforcement

00:04-Caller

Question that because I don't want to miss anyone else who may be screaming for assistance that are truly my friends that I, you know, I just looked past because of life being so busy life being so fast life being so loud.

00:21-Cinnamon

that word that was you know, he was again that screaming word. I would love it if everyone screamed for help. If they walked right up and said, Hey, I am in trouble. I am thinking thoughts that I don't like,

00:36-Erin

if you're open to putting yourself out there and kind of make an announcement, if you will, that, hey, I don't care who you are, what's going on in your life, you can count on me to be the person that holds space for you to genuinely care when I say how are you what's going on with you.

00:59-Hosts

It's the first responder, the first to get the call. The first on scene greeted by God knows what pushed beyond the limits that they don't even set. Then what happens you're listening to After the Tones Drop. We're your hosts. I'm Cinnamon, a first responder trauma therapist who founded our practice after seeing the need for specialized care following a local line of duty death.

01:26-Erin

And I'm Erin. I'm a first responder integration coach.

01:31-Cinnamon

We help first responders receive transformational training, therapy and coaching.

01:36-Erin

Now we come to you to explore, demystify and destigmatize mental health and wellness for first responders.

01:45-Cinnamon

Our show brings you stories from real first responders, the tools they've learned, the changes they've made, and the lives they now get to live.

02:02-Erin/Disclaimer

Before we jump in to the show today, we wanted to be mindful of the mental and emotional well being of our listeners. We'd like to warn you that some individuals may find the content of some of our episodes alarming. Please be prepared to hear content regarding PTSD, suicide, and other content, which listeners may find troubling.

02:24-Cinnamon

And we are here episode four, where we are featuring a hotline call. If you've been following us, you know that we've wanted to provide a forum where our first responders can reach out to share a success, a struggle or simply ask a question. And if you would like to do that, please head over to our website afterthetonesdrop.com. That is a singular drop and a plural tones. So afterthetonesdrop.com. And you can access our hotline by clicking on the hotline tab and record confidentially straight into our website. And then we can feature your call on a future episode. Part of the reason that we wanted to do this, not only for people to be able to reach out, but also for our listeners to hear other people's questions that may be the same questions that they have, or maybe the same struggle that they have. Or they've wondered, and they have not asked yet. So you all can benefit from each other's curiosity and experiences.

03:31-Erin

Yeah, the truth is, too sometimes we are struggling with something. And we feel like we're the only one struggling with it. And by having this hotline, you all can can share that safely and hear that you're not alone.

03:44-Cinnamon

Well, I think that's one of the biggest perks of being a therapist is, you know, we didn't get to this job because we are, you know, clean slates that have never had a bad thing happen to us. Um, so even our ability to listen to a variety of people talk about their struggles, when I've decided that, humans have like five problems. That's it. The five problems are I'm not sure yet. But they are there. It's, you know, difficulty with communication. Not knowing what to do not knowing what to handle, and not knowing how to communicate any of it. So maybe it's three, it comes down to I don't know what to do. I don't know what to say. And I don't know how to say it. And I mean, really, that ability to see all of these people coming for a wide variety of reasons that they think they're the only ones having these problems. And you've heard that story before and after a while it boils down to I don't know what this means. I don't know how to say what I want to say And for people to be able to listen to this and hear some of their own struggles, you know, it's kind of twofold. So thank you for those of you who have called and left a message. And thank you to those who futuristically will call and leave a voicemail message for us. Absolutely.

05:21-Erin

And you know, so this first caller is from what I gather from their message is sounds like law enforcement does talk a little bit about unity ride, yeah, something like that. They are specifically reaching out in regards to a sounds like a loss. So we'll go ahead and play this for you. And then we will be able to give you a little insight. And one of the things that we're doing to encourage people to call and not be concerned about being recognized is we are altering our callers voices just a little bit so that folks can speak freely and not have to worry. So here's our first caller.

05:58-Caller

As I think back on what happened with the loss of a dear friend, and co worker, I sat and I just thought about some of the things that I missed. You know, the Friday prior to her taking her life, she sat in my office, and we discussed some things for the police unity tour she had, I'm begging her to buy tickets and help sponsor me through this police unity tour. And she did. And every time I would greet her, I would give her a hug. And she would ask me, why did I hug her? And I never once looked at the fact that I just hugged her because she was afraid and because maybe I wanted to hug. However, I sit back now. And I look at the fact that her asking me that was that her telling me something? Was that her trying to explain to me that something is wrong with her. And a flag is popping up and questioning the fact of Hey, why are you holding this girl? And is this her final hood that she's going to receive? You know, I questioned myself things. And I just wonder if I missed something? In the questions that I have is just that I missed some of the things that she was trying to show me that she's going to possibly end her life. And I questioned that because I don't want to miss anyone else who may be screaming for assistance that are truly my friends that I you know, I just look past because of like being so busy, like being so fast, like being so loud, that we don't take the time to look at what's right in front of our face, and what's being screamed at us. We look past it because of the fast pace, the busy pace of our pace. So help me find ways to slow down, turn down, stop and see what's in front of me.

08:14-Cinnamon

What we just heard it sounds like it's a law enforcement officer who just lost a friend and co worker. And the main concern that we heard before, the actual question was, what did I miss? Did I miss something? Was she trying to show me something that I didn't see? They even use the word screaming? And that stuck out to me? And I'll talk about it. why in a second? And the question is how, how do I slow down, turn down stop and see what's right in front of me. And oftentimes, there isn't really always something in front of you to look at, to spot those things. Like, I wonder how many of our listeners can actually relate to this who have experienced a friend or co worker who has died by suicide, who just didn't see it coming. Never thought that their friend was the quote type of person that would do this or always seem to have it together. But I hear that a lot. Like I had no idea. And there's a reason like a lot of times the last thing people want others to know is that they're struggling. I mean, hello, we were here specifically because there's a stigma around mental health. And so the idea that someone is struggling, it usually doesn't come in the form of, you know, an envelope postmarked from your friend saying, hey, I need some help.

09:48-Erin

Yeah. And in your experience, is there also a version where maybe they don't even know how much they're struggling?

09:54-Cinnamon

Absolutely. That a lot of times when I talk to people about their symptoms, they minimize or they, they, it's become so normal. It's just how they operate. A big one is what a lot of people call wisdom. Like over the years they've gotten so not even like, skeptical, but what's that other word? We're

10:20-Erin

Desensitized? No, it's Oh, that's the first thing. I thought it was desensitized. Yes.

10:26-Cinnamon

So yes, but they also become violent, the word cryptic coming to mind, you know, when you're, you're like, I have that thing going on. And I'm, I'm skeptical. Skeptical is that the word like you said, skeptical. And maybe that's not the word I'm looking for. It'll, it'll come to me like 20 minutes. Where they think that it's just they've gotten wiser, because they've had all these experiences. But really, they're just hardened. And they are less empathetic, less compassionate. And that's not a great thing, you know, like, that slips by people all the time, where they don't even realize that what they're experiencing are the symptoms of having that chronic exposure, or cumulative stress or even just repeated traumatic exposure.

11:26-Erin

So this is in response to the actual individual who might be suffering. That's what you're speaking into. Correct?

11:33-Cinnamon

Yeah, that a lot of times their behavior, they've just seen it change over the years and think that they've gotten wiser and more experienced, and so they see bullshit a lot faster. But oftentimes, they jump to conclusions. And what they see as bullshit isn't actually bullshit. Or even if it is bullshit, it still requires compassion. Yeah, right. For sure, the word that was, you know, used again, that screaming word, I would love it, if everyone screamed for help. If they walked right up and said, Hey, I am in trouble. I am thinking thoughts that I don't like. And I think that's one of the misunderstandings about suicidal ideation, is, it's not necessarily that I'm thinking, you know, what, suicide is a great idea. This is an option. What I find happens more often is there intrusive thoughts. So I'm just minding my own business going along, and it pops in my head, you know, suicide might be a good idea. And you're like, What the hell where that come from, and they don't like it. They're not in control of it. And it oftentimes can scare the bejesus out of them. So that sounds like a really great time to call a therapist, or someone, it doesn't even have to be a professional just telling somebody like, hey, these unwanted thoughts are coming into my head. And they're scaring me or I don't like them. They're not invited. They're not thoughts that I'm thinking. They're just ideas or statements that pop into our heads. Yeah. Going back to our color, there seem to be kind of like the two pieces. One is what did I miss? And the second is, how do I do this slow down thing to kind of pay attention?

13:25-Erin

Yeah. And can I add something real quick? I am so sorry to hear about this loss. And I imagine this loss affected many people as well. And the first thing I heard is that you provided her with connection and hugs. And so for me, I was like, Oh, my gosh, they did all the right things. And the way that they approached this individual who was struggling, even with just a hey, I'm here, I'm acknowledging when a hug, this person didn't miss them at all, but that's just me. I could be totally off.

13:57-Cinnamon

Well, anything. And I also think in 20/20 hindsight, you know, after something like that happens, it sounds like their interaction was only a few days before she took her life. They were looking back, wondering what I missed. And, you know, when she asked, Why did you hug me, their first thought was to go to well, why did I hug you? Like, why did I hug her? I guess I didn't even think about it. My first thought went to Why are you asking? Why are you asking why? Why are you asking why? To me, that was like the first sign. Right? So if I'm friends with you, and you hug me, I'm not necessarily going to be like, Why did you have but if I'm in my head with a narrative of unworthiness, or feeling unlovable or feeling like a failure, whatever that is, then yeah, I'm going to think why in the hell did you choose to hug me? I'm a POS, not a point of sale. And I'm not worthy of your love and affection. So I think a lot of times when we have those questions asked the first thing is, I don't want to say our caller was defensive. I certainly don't know. But the first thing they went to is the straight piece of the question, why did you hug me? Like what motivated you? And because, you know, we're trained my first thought was, huh, that's an interesting question to ask me after I've just given you a hug. So that, in all honesty, in everything that they shared in that call, that's the only thing that stands out as a, quote, red flag. And to be perfectly honest, that is a very late shade of pink, it's

15:41-Erin

It’s not even red, really. 

15:43-Cinnamon

No, it's not red. 

15:44-Erin

And not that we're gonna get into this person's mind, of course, but that doesn't even speak to me, like I'm on the verge of harming myself or ending my own life. It's a completely different conversation. But either way, this does not discount the fact that our caller is saying, Well, okay, what about next time? Or who do I get to be to slow down?

16:02-Cinnamon

Right? That's, that's the key that I think I wanted to hone in on was not necessarily how do I look for red flags? But the way I phrased it is, how do I become a white flag? Like we could drive ourselves Batty, trying to psychoanalyze all of our peers and co workers and colleagues and friends and loved ones if we start looking for that stuff. And I think the the easiest way, rather than going out and searching for a bunch of red flags, is to become the white flag and I say white flag, meaning they ask how do I slow down? How do I turn it down? How do I stop when everything's so busy? And to me, I'm a big believer of I do not have time to listen to you. Tell me actually how you are? I assure I should I'm not going to ask you. Now, I may say something like, I hope you're doing well, I'll catch you later. But I really don't like the idea of somebody asking me how I am. And you know, that good old Midwestern phrase, good, new, you know, the, where it's just so autopilot, that it doesn't mean anything. And if I'm going to ask somebody, I want to have the time to be able to listen to make eye contact to stop what I'm doing. And, and actually listen, look into their eyes and hear what they're having to say. I want to be that person who normalizes mental health issues. Who, if I'm in treatment, if I've been to therapy, if I've struggled in the past, I want to be the person that says that out loud. Not necessarily for accolades, like pat me on the back who I went and got treatment or who I can admit whatever. But more so because that is you raising your white flag saying, in so many words, and I'm sure there's exceptions to this, but I am a safe place. Right? Yeah. And that came through? And our very first episode. Yes, it's education. Yes, it's awareness. But for this particular caller, I think there's an opportunity to just be that person. And also understand that you're not going to be able to catch it every time. And not everybody is going to be willing to share.

18:20-Erin

Right? But if you're open to putting yourself out there, and kind of make an announcement, if you will, that, hey, I don't care who you are, what's going on in your life, you can count on me to be the person that holds space for you to genuinely care when I say how are you what's going on with you that I will give you that pause, I will give you that time. So being that person that outwardly lets it be known that I will be there, that way individuals always know that they have a place to go, even if it's just the one individual

18:49-Cinnamon

And I even like the whole let's go grab a cup of coffee. Yeah, you know, like, I think a lot of times, we are very friendly with our co workers, a lot of times they become family. But we don't always take that time outside of work to connect, when the heat is off when the hustle and bustle. The busyness isn't always there, but just to connect outside to be able to say, you've seen me in and outside the office, and I'm the same person either place and I want you to be able to come and talk to me if you need to know that I'm invested in knowing you.

19:30-Erin

Yeah. So basically, the long and the short of it is based on what I said, which was I feel like this individual the caller was already kind of there in terms of being that safe place by extending the hug that gesture, and it doesn't seem like there was anything necessarily missed based on what you've said.

19:50-Cinnamon

Yeah, I think that what the caller is doing is pretty natural, you know, kind of perusing through memories and checking to see and second guessing and wondering what if one that that doesn't always serve us? It really is about, okay, what can I do next time let's not dwell in that place to the point of harm. I don't think it's an issue to ask questions and evaluate. To make sure that however you're doing it moving forward looks like it's intentional. And obviously, we we never want anyone to lose another friend, or another co worker, we don't. And we just don't want anyone to lose their life because of this job or anything else or don't feel like they can speak about their struggles because of their job or the culture, in the workplace about what it means to struggle with mental health. Yeah, I actually, I would love to have a co worker like this that upon creating gives hugs, and just says definitely, I Hey, I give you you do you do? It's just, it's not the same. I have to like bend down so far, that it feels like work A lot of times. I should put you like on a step stool. Definitely. You should just carry a step stool, those folding ones that go flat. You know, we have one in the closet, we have one in the pantry. We could just do that. You just carry that along in your work bag.

21:19-Erin

You got it. I'll do that for you. Thank you for making a direct request. 

21:23-Cinnamon

Yes, it's been on my to do list to ask you about that.

21:34 (Hotline Ad)

Hey there listener. If you could ask any question, or freely talk about any challenge related to being on the job, and no one would know, what would you say, we are excited to share about our confidential hotline that we created just for you. Through this confidential hotline, you can leave a message sharing a success, a struggle, or simply ask a question. We will spotlight calls and offer feedback and insight from a licensed therapist and a certified coach who work exclusively with first responders. You can access our hotline voicemail by visiting after the tone strop.com and clicking the voicemail tab. Additionally, you can join our mailing list if you'd like or easily follow us on Facebook and Instagram, for all the most recent updates. You know, the drill telephone, tell a friend tell a first responder.

22:44-Erin

One of the things that we did talk about earlier and suggest was this idea of being the white flag and instead of looking for the red flags show up as the white flag, it's still really important to keep your eyes peeled. So we don't want to gloss over the fact that our caller did ask specifically, what are these red flags? How do I know I don't want to miss them in the event that they happen again, or that co worker or a friend is essentially quote unquote, screaming for help. So that's how I'm interpreting the red flags as the screaming for help kind of concept.

23:19-Cinnamon

Yeah, I mean, I think that, wouldn't we all want the screaming red flags where it was super obvious. We didn't have any doubt. I think when we don't have doubt, then we're going to be more assertive. But the reality is that we know first responders have a higher rate of suicide than the general public. And we know that first responders die more by suicide than they do in line of duty deaths. So I hear a lot. Oh, I would never do that. And I think that the reality is that we know that they do do that. And that has to be acknowledged, like this isn't a group collectively that uses the phrase, I'd never do that so often. Yet, we also know they're at higher risk for doing exactly that. So to me that I'd never do that can very quickly turn to I will do that. Because the reasons I would never do that. I wouldn't do that to my family. I wouldn't that's not my character. I wouldn't do that to my kids. I've watched people and a matter of days go from I would never to I'm doing this for my kids. I'm doing this for my spouse, I am a problem that if I take myself out of the picture, everybody's life will be better. Yeah. And the reality is is now is just another trauma that a minimum of 400 people I think is the number that will be affected. And then your kids will be in therapy. You know, like you can't lose a parent and just sub them out for another A legal guardian or even a step parent like that doesn't remedy the situation, I'd rather have a parent who is struggling to be an a parent or to be in a relationship with their spouse, get the help that they need, then just think that the only alternative they have is to remove themselves and offer up the opportunity for step parents to take their job.

25:24-Erin

Well, the idea is that suicide is preventable.

25:27-Cinnamon

Absolutely 100%. And while we're not necessarily going to be able right now, we're working towards that, to prevent 100% of the suicides. That doesn't mean that 100% Aren't preventable. And I think it's a little tricky, because before it happens, we want to educate, we want to have peers be able to recognize these signs. And then after it's over, if something does happen, we like to say things like, there's nothing you could have done. Yes, and we want to alleviate that feeling of like guilt or responsibility. So there are things that we can do, I don't necessarily see value and beating ourselves over the head with a failure of missing signs. But I can see using that as a learning opportunity to know that it is necessary that you are at least aware of the signs,

26:22-Erin

Right, which is what we were talking about with also being a white flag, absolutely open, communicating that you are someone that people can talk to and feel safe. But this understanding to which is where the education comes in, of getting that there is primary causes, there are particular reasons why people even get into this position in the first place. So even before the red flag, so having the understanding of what is possible, especially in this line of work that can cause these conditions is really important, too. Does that make sense? So I feel like um,

26:53-Cinnamon

No, that totally makes sense. And ideally, there is no one real answer, there's typically a number of situations, a number of behaviors that we might see, the biggest thing is noticing. When any behavior mood talk change is related to a significant event. So primary causes are one of the big factors that we see is chronic and traumatic stress. So whether it's the occupational stress of being the detective in the child abuse division, or it's being an EMS paramedic, where you're responding to car accidents that are heinous, whether or not we have a background of adverse childhood experiences, where our childhood actually does play a part. And then we also know our first responders, when we see somebody dive into substance abuse, or substance misuse, where it's just taking the edge off or numbing, but when we are under the influence of something, our impulsivity is exacerbated, and our ability to problem solve is decreased. And our logic, and even our moral compass is kind of skewed. So we're more likely to act impulsively, then, if we were level headed. We also know that there is a contagion factor where suicide can look contagious. If we get exposed to it, if we have a family history, we see it in schools where there can be one child dies by suicide. And then we have another child. We had a department in Florida who suffered or it suffered two suicides within 19 days. And I don't know any of the details. I didn't respond to that. But of course, that idea of contagious comes to mind. And that is such a blow to a department.

29:00-Erin

And if I understand correctly, that particular department took that very seriously and started reaching out to the folks there and saying, We got to have all hands on deck here. Yeah,

29:10-Cinnamon

Everybody has to be eyes and ears. And so then the question becomes, what am I looking for? Exactly.

29:18-Erin

So what are we looking for? That is what the red flags specifically are. And you hear us talk a lot about PTSD. And if you listen to the third episode, you understand that a lot of things fall in to what PTS PTSD looks like. That's including depression, anxiety, all of those issues.

29:37-Cinnamon

Exactly. Well, and we love that phrase red flags, right? But I would even go so far to break it down into more like three separate categories. I would be looking for the risk factors. I'd be looking for warning signs, and I would be looking at protective factors. So how do we define these and separate them? Starting with the last one, I mentioned protective factors, these are going to be the things that are in place that make it less likely for someone to harm themselves. So it is going to be like access to mental health being in a proactive department when it comes to mental health, where there's a peer support involved, where from top down bottom up, the idea of mental health is not considered bullshit and is actually supported. We also know that when it comes to warning signs, those are what we're probably going to be calling the red flags. So our warning signs are going to come down to whether or not this new or change behavior is related to a painful event a loss or change.

30:48-Erin

So some of the more specific warning signs would be something like individuals making statements or sharing that they're feeling hopeless, like being specific in that respect. Yeah,

31:01-Cinnamon

I think that unfortunately, a common phrase in our culture is Oh, my God, I could kill myself. And obviously, there's a difference when somebody is just using that off the cuff. And I wouldn't necessarily have that be my guiding star as whether or not to ask, but I think we know the difference. And I would also encourage people to stop using that phrase, right? Like it, it elicits a completely different message than what you're trying to send. But when we're looking at how people are talking, like feelings are statements that reflect that they don't have a reason to live or a sense of purpose. So that sense of purpose is would be considered a protective factor. If I love my job, if I feel like I'm giving back, if I feel like my job means something bigger than just myself, those are going to be protective factors. So when we see the dialog from an individual changing to like, why am I even here? Like, why am I showing up, looking more depressed, more anxious, more irritable, where they're experiencing shame and humiliation, which again, I just want to always advise people, I'm I am pro ball busting, right? Like I love a good job, I can be found in a department dishing it out, just like anybody else. But I've also had people disclose to me, there are people in my department that are mocking me about this really difficult event. I'm afraid if I say anything about how much it's bothering me, and how much it's hurting and making my situation worse, they're just going to double down. Yep, I've heard that before, too. And so this is my plea to if you're gonna joke, which is a part of the culture, make sure that the other person is also participating, and is finding it humorous, and is not saying things or even like their body language looks like they're just tolerating it, because you don't want to be the deck, right? Like, you don't want to be the dick in the department that goes too far with something. And you find out later that you're actually causing harm. Because I know those folks, that's not their intention.

33:11-Erin

Well, and often, I think that everybody feels that way at some point in time or another, especially depending on the circumstance that they're dealing with, whether they admit it or not. And it's like, love your neighbor as thyself kind of idea. But you know, how it feels to be picked on or be ridiculed, especially when something feels really raw and real for you. And so let's not be so naive to consider how it might make somebody else feel. And it's definitely going to create a place of I feel like I can't talk to my brothers, you know, when I really need them the most if at any given moment, the ballbusting is going a little too far.

33:47-Cinnamon

Yeah, I sat at dinner tables in a firehouse where they're like, Yeah, we have a peer support here. But we've worked with him for 1520 years. We know how he talks, right? We know him, we're not telling him anything, because we know he's a gossip. So you know, and my answer to that is maybe it's not a good fit for you to share. But that doesn't mean they don't have the ability, the qualifications, the compassion to do this job. They just may not be the right person for you to talk to. Or they could be the right person for somebody outside of their department to talk to. But again, something to be thinking about is we reflect when we're deciding whether or not we're going to share when we're targeting a specific person and considering whether or not they are a safe place to share something they're going through that Rolodex in their mind of every other behavior. And whether or not this person will take them seriously will break their confidentiality or react in a supportive way.

34:49-Erin

When some of the warning signs, especially because we spend so much time you guys you gals spend so much time with these folks at work when you know when something As off, if you are noticing, like, for example, they're becoming much more angry, or you're noticing that their alcohol consumption has increased, and maybe even they're showing up and they're smelling like alcohol. And I get it like getting off work and going out and having a beer is one thing, but it's like they can't wait to get out of there. So they can start drinking again. Or even becoming more disconnected and removed from people that they're normally close to, you know, maybe they are jovial, kind of like, roll with the punches individual. And the next thing you notice they are more removed. So these are things that you can experience pretty quickly without even asking questions.

35:40-Cinnamon

Well, and I'm glad you mentioned that idea of like withdrawing from activities or isolating from your people. Because that came up, one of our friends and colleagues is actually a widow of a retired firefighter who died by suicide. And she feels very strongly that the biggest sign and symptom is isolating from family and friends, whether that's I always say you're in the basement and the lazy boy watching ESPN with your beer. And I've heard of people like I'm picking fights with my spouse, so I don't have to go to soccer. And then I just know what to say I'm sorry when they get back. But that gives me like two to four hours where I can just be isolated. They're withdrawing from activities. And here's an internal red flag, if you're kind of examining yourself and your own risk, we say withdrawing from activities right now. But I also want to say the loss of interest. So even if you are attending, but it used to be way more fun, that's something that we should be paying attention to. And it's not just because we're old and our backs hurts, and we can't play Saturday, adults soccer anymore, but really that we're just starting to withdraw from what we used to do on the regular. I would like to add to this list, the things that are probably more obvious when folks are directly having conversations or talking about harming or killing themselves. They're expressing feelings of hopelessness, like they have no reason to live, we see when we have significant loss like divorce or custody issues, when somebody is considered like this as my family, and then they're looking to move into an apartment by themselves that have enough room for their kids on the weekend that can be you know, something that comes up feeling trapped, feeling like a burden to others. None of our first responders want to be a burden to others, most people don't want to be a burden to others. But I think when you've been a helper all your life, and now you are in need of help, which is why I feel like the telephone can weigh 1000 pounds to pick it up and call us. But also just that idea of like, I should be able to help myself. And now not only can I not get myself out of this, but now I'm requiring other people to get involved to help get me out. So those are some of those more direct and obvious ones. Yeah, also,

38:07-Erin

In addition to the drug use, or the withdrawing from activities they typically love. And the isolation is even more obvious than what you just said is like actually calling people to say goodbye, or beginning to give away items that maybe were their prized possession like Big Brother has that baseball, you've always really wanted and he'll never let you have it. And then all of a sudden, he's like, here, I want you to have this like that might be a little off putting or surprising. 

38:34-Cinnamon

Maybe you want to ask a couple more questions. And the big risk factor that I want to make sure that we don't go without mentioning is the reluctance to seek help due to that fear of stigmatization. If I am worried about what everybody else is going to think of me, then I'm less likely to reach out for help. And my problems are going to get more severe and more progressive. And again, this is not an individual issue. This is a Department issue, top down bottom up, what is the culture around mental health.

39:10-Erin

So we have a lot of juicy information too. And we will happily put everything into our show notes just so you have access to it. And it's easily readily available. But so specifically, if we were just to run down a quick list of some obvious warning signs. Before we do that, too, it's like, don't be afraid to ask too if you even question that something might be off or something seems, you know, yeah, out of sorts.

39:38-Cinnamon

Just even thinking about our caller. had they known. They absolutely would have handled it in that moment. It sounds like if they would have known if they would have known what to look for, if they would have had any indication. And so yes, it can be a difficult question to ask. But I don't want anyone to ever be in the situation. Where after something like that happens, they're like I saw it. I knew they were struggling. I didn't speak up. And now I get to sit with this while they're gone.

40:13-Erin

Yeah, we and we've talked about this, a handful of times, human beings tend to not know how to talk about things like this with one another. It happens with grief and loss, and often have this and I can speak for me, like, sometimes I just have this feeling like maybe I'm just being paranoid, or maybe I'm putting my own stuff on this individual, and I'm making it up, you know, it's easy to like, rationalize or justify or think we're off. But hell, I'd rather be off and ask anyway. And it'd be all about me, yeah, then not, you know, at least check into the situation.

40:47-Cinnamon

So, and I think checking into the situation. So after a critical incident, check on your people, if somebody is going through a life change, like they've lost a family member, they're going through divorce, they're having financial struggles, if they're having relationship problems, anything, financial issues, anything like that, like those are the those are folks that probably need to be checked in on. And not necessarily that it's a an absolute, like, oh, my gosh, if I don't intervene, this person is going to hurt themselves. But it's knowing that there is a higher rate, knowing that these are the things that can instigate it. And when we're talking about law enforcement, dispatch, fire, EMS, all of that it is hypermasculine male dominated fields, right. And so we're going to probably have more access to firearms. And then you've got paramedics who have a med box, we've we've had clients disclose about using the contents of med boxes, that was part of their plan, and luckily, no execution. But that's that ideation and planning. First, it's that intrusive thought, like, holy shit, where did that come from? I have that scary. I have no desire to hurt myself. But it popped into my head as a solution, uninvited. And then it's the ideation were like, here's what problems would go away. This is what it could look like. And then we're looking at plan, when now I'm daydreaming, if we can use that word of like, how would I do it? Would I? Well, let's not throw it any ideas. But we know right? Our folks respond to these calls. They know the strategies, but when you're planning on how to do it, those are those big red flags that even if nobody has asked me, I better be telling myself to someone. And if it's not a loved one, a colleague, contacting directly a therapist, we will have resources that can be like anonymous phone calls, there are 24/7 Standby, call takers for our first responders, suicide lines, and they are trained to respond to your needs in that moment and understand the importance of confidentiality.

43:13-Erin

The person is directly telling you, they're thinking about killing themselves, they're feeling hopeless. They no longer have a reason to live.

43:21-Cinnamon

What do you do then? Be like, okay, they handed me the red flag. What do I do now?

43:26-Erin

That is as obvious as it can get? Yeah, you know, I feel like I'm a burden to others, and I no longer want to live and I'm feeling trapped, or I'm in so much pain, I can't even stand it anymore. And your question was, well, what do they do then?

43:39-Cinnamon

Yeah, so now I've got somebody who's like, they answered the question, honestly. And indeed, they are feeling suicidal as their peer. What do I do next?

43:48-Erin

Well, you sure as hell don't run away, grab them by their hand, you say I got you, brother or sister.

43:55-Cinnamon

Yeah. Also, I want every department to have the contact information for their area peer team. And if you don't have a peer team, please send us an email, we will connect you with people that know how to start peer teams, the peer team for our state was just beginning when I got involved. And now there seems to be peer teams all over the place. And, you know, even if you're in a remote rural area, you're still in a district. And so we can find whoever in your district is in charge of that peer support, because your peer support person is going to be trained on how to respond to this beyond what we've just done in providing this information. And they're also going to have the resources for any clinical links. And peer is that first line of defense. If you need to talk to somebody and then if they feel like the next level is needed, then they will do a clinical referral. That may look like an hour outpatient therapist and intensive outpatient treatment, or even maybe an inpatient to help you get squared away completely, rather than getting to a healthy place in 30 days, where then you move forward with therapy versus, okay, well, I'm gonna go see an outpatient therapist, while I'm suicidal. And take six months to get out of this, or however that looks. But obviously, inpatient is going to be way more intensive than seeing a therapist once or twice a week, for however many weeks. Yeah.

45:37-Erin

And I want to reiterate, if somebody says those specific things to you, take them by their hand, stick with them.

45:43-Cinnamon

Yeah, absolutely make those phone calls together. And obviously get permission. But I would like to think we're talking to both the peers that may be in that position, as well as the individuals who are struggling with suicidal thoughts, and understand that we all want to help. That's why we're here. That's why Aaron and I are here. That's why we do this job. That's why the issues around mental health have moved to the forefront from, you know, one paragraph in a book, you're gonna see bad things. And if it affects you call someone to now it's an abundance of resources, we just have to make sure that as we give you these resources, we're also getting rid of the legitimate concerns around how people receive the information that I'm struggling, as well as the stuff that comes out of a stigma where I'm worried about what everybody thinks. And also, don't be a dick, right? Like, when you hear somebody struggling, don't be a dick. Yeah. We used to have a little magnet on our refrigerator that just said, don't be a dick. Now I have one of those stainless steel and nothing sticks to it, but the sides so you don't.

46:55-Erin

So one of you guys can have it for your firehouses and whatnot. Oh, my gosh, we should make that'll be the after the tones drop tagline. Don't be don't be a dick. 

46:59-Cinnamon

Yeah, Be nice. 

47:07-Erin

Well, cool. I do want to thank our caller for the great question, and the curiosity and having the courage to leave the message.

47:16-Cinnamon

In our first episode talks a lot about how to be that safe space. And then our third episode, oh my gosh, look at how we're just rolling along with this. Our third episode is when we start what we're calling like our educational series, where we kind of break down and, and demystify all of these diagnoses and, and symptoms that folks have. And that will start to give you a little bit of an understanding or a pretty significant understanding of how traumatic and cumulative stress can show up in our day to day lives. And hopefully, this all builds each episode one on another, giving our listeners you our listener, as I look longingly into Aaron's eyes, you our listener a better understanding to how to help yourself how to help others how to change the culture in your department, how to just end this ridiculous stigma that you're not man enough masculine enough woman enough. Cop firefighter, military enough. Tough Enough if you have a mental health concern, right? I wish this had some kind of effect where you know, like people with five fingers and five toes on each hand and foot cannot get this diagnosis or get these problems but that's just not reality. You do this job and it's not if

48:51-Hosts

it's just when? Yep, it’s when

48:54-Hosts

all right well, thank you cinnamon appreciate your insight on that. And we will see you all soon. Take care

49:07-Erin/Outro

Thank you for joining us for today's episode of after the tone straw. Today's show has been brought to you by whole house counseling. As a note, after the tones drop is for informational purposes only and does not constitute for medical or psychological advice. It is not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis or treatment. Please contact a local mental health professional in your area if you're in need of any assistance. You can also visit after the tone strop.com and click on our resources tab for an abundance of helpful information. And we would like to give a very special thank you and shout out to Venz Adams, Yeti and Sonda for our shows music.