Hotline Caller: The Newspaper Clipping

EP 34: The Newspaper Clipping

Erin: So Cinnamon, hi.

Cinnamon: Hello. Hi, 

Erin: It has been a while since we've had a hotline call episode. A couple months, I think. Yeah.

Cinnamon: It is. Yeah, we, were working through some childhood adversity and holidays and just life and a lot of stuff that was coming up for us as well as people we were meeting that we wanted to make sure that we introduced our listeners to. 

Erin: Obscene amounts of travel. 

Cinnamon: and I also wanted to make sure that we got to this because what he's asking is so important, but I do want to give, I do want to give a little caveat.

I just came back from a funeral. I'm getting ready to head out for a funeral. We're talking about some death and dying and tragedy. And so if I start crying. I'm just giving you a heads up and I'm giving you Erin a heads up because you've already seen me cry once this morning And so the listener and that's completely normal, right that's when things that are happening trigger other things that are happening And yeah, and II do want to I do want to say this because I think it's important

So last night one of my childhood friends died And, he's 45 and he's the little brother of one of my best friends and he was a fire captain in the fire department in my hometown and, I don't know a guy that was as beloved as he was and as good as he was and was as annoying as he was when we were kids.

but. It's on my mind and it's on my heart and as we navigate this episode I just may get a little bit emotional as we talk about loss and mementos and Grief and why we do the things we do. So I just wanted to put that out there and Yeah, that's it. I know you weren't expecting that but I knew I was already gonna start crying I just figured throw it out.

Erin: Well, I think it's important that you share where you are. And this is part of the grieving process. It's not this organized, tidy, little, neat process. It's sloppy and messy and surprising, and this is all so fresh and so new. And I think that you going through this today, as we're recording, is quite important because the caller is still experiencing something from a memento that he had saved from a run.

Gosh, a long time ago. And the first thing I thought of with this caller was, is there some kind of grief attached to it, or guilt attached to it, or that whole story of, could I have done more attached to it? There's so much. And so it feels very parallel. And I'm so sorry for your loss and for his family.

And I know his sister, but not him. But I know that. It's never easy. It is never easy, especially when it comes out of nowhere and no one can prepare for it, or begin the grief process while the person's still alive, like sometimes we can when folks pass away of old age or whatnot, and so we get blindsided, and it's hard.

Cinnamon: and I think Because we're professionals, we have this intellectual perspective on a lot of things. And, you and I have both openly talked about our own struggles with substances and mental health. And, we give these answers in these, hotline calls, or we, Pull from our brain, the things that we know or that we've learned.

that sense of powerlessness. man I spiraled last night. I was like, okay, we got to do this and we got to do this. And what are we going to do and how can we help? and I had to check myself and be like, okay, ladies, cause you know, we have a little collective group from high school that are still close.

And I was like, I got to pull myself out. Because I don't have anything else to give right now, but I will check back in tomorrow morning, and I've, done that, but it's that desire, that strong need to feel like, you're doing something. I mean, I've offered to have cleaners come into our house.

I offered to go onto Amazon and buy her a shitload of clothes. so she could just try on and then I'll come pick them up three hours away and send them back to Amazon. Like the most insane things that you might think of, but I'm like, I don't know what else to do. Cause I can't, I can't bring Bri 

Erin: Of course. And we are helper fixers just like our listener and it is completely normal for something tragic to happen and for us to kick it into high gear and try to be the fixers. And that's a, very helpless and powerless feeling. And so you did exactly what we do in the face of crisis, which is get into action and try to find some kind of solution to the chaos in any way that you can.

And I feel confident our listener can relate to that. 

Cinnamon: I will say I was very proud of myself for pulling myself back and saying, It's 10 o'clock at night. I'm still answering client texts. I'm still doing this. I'm still doing that like I got to take a breather and You know just kind of like what we talked about on the last episode of 

Erin: Yeah. 

Cinnamon: We have to practice what we preach

Erin: two episodes ago.

Cinnamon: Two episodes ago. Okay. Yeah, see fried egg is upstairs That's all I've got going like scrambled eggs. Like that shit ain't even over easy anymore but I Have so many questions for our caller today, and I'm real glad that at the end of the call they said You know, I am seeing someone I just haven't brought this up yet and the caveat to all of our hotline calls is we only Can share our thoughts or opinions or information based on what we get, right?

So we don't know if this is an LEO or a paramedic and that might make a difference. We don't know like we had talked about earlier. Does he or did he have a child that age? was the dad close to his age? was he the one? That their goal was to save versus just do the recovery process, you know law enforcement investigations versus paramedic and So with all that said, we're giving our professional experience and we're going to share information based on just maybe a little bit of what could be possible, but by no means if our caller's experience doesn't fit into the paradigm of what we share today, that doesn't mean that they're doing it wrong. It just means that we're only answering with what we 

Erin: Or that the reason that they're doing it Is crazy or ridiculous or doesn't have meaning. again, so let's just emphasize that we are thrilled that this caller is seeing someone and finding that support and working through whatever things they need to work through. so we are calling this one the newspaper Clipping, and I am gonna go ahead and play it now, and we can listen and then share what we come up with.

HOTLINE CALL:  long time listener, first time caller. Uh, I have a newspaper article that i’ve kept for many many years. It's regrading a daughter and father that we recovered their bodies. and I was speaking to one of our officer support team members recently and talked about the article and was asked why do you still have it? And I don’t know. I tried to throw the article away multiple times. Actually my wife cam across it when we were working on a project together. It's, um in my toolbox in be shed and she saw ut and went to walk the trashcan. And I told her I just wasn’t ready to throw that away yet. And I, and i’m wondering ha ha, I don’t know why. I don’t know why I can’t get rid of it. It doesn’t bring me joy. It doesn’t bring sadness. It allows me to reflect but I don’t know why I still have that. And why I can’t get rid of it. I was hoping you might be able to help me out with that. And Yes, I am seeing someone for issues I jus haven’t actually asked this question yet. Thank you for your time, you girls are doing a great job.

Cinnamon: Don't you love how he like started that Sentence with yes, I am seeing someone so he already knew what we would ask I agree like he just answered the question and also thank you for the compliment at the tail end It means a lot we put so much work into this and we love it and it's always nice to hear that it's being valued and  has value. So thanks. 

Erin: Yeah, so much value that you had the courage to call and leave the message. oh my goodness, so it sounds like the caller is law enforcement. 

Cinnamon: Yeah, I caught that. 

Erin: Okay. Yeah, that. said something about,

 Cinnamon: Officer. 

Erin: yeah, something about officer. So we're just gonna say, but either way, it doesn't really matter, but it does affect like the level of, what they might've been doing in that particular moment. You know, and if he was the officer, was he the first person to find them? is that why? The first person to find them in their final resting place. that could be part of it. and again, like you said, Cinnamon, is it because perhaps he had a daughter that was the same age at the time that he experienced this and, you know, the experience hits so close to home that to let go of this newspaper clipping would mean he was Doing that in his own life, like throwing his daughter away. Like we could just go on and on and on.

Cinnamon: So many theories possible. we'll get a little more granular as we talk about this, but I think the one thing that stuck out to me, was. when we try to apply logic to emotional, motivated behaviors, it may not make sense, we may clearly know that that is not our child, or the people, that you would be tossing, but I also would say, keep it, 

Erin: That's what I was thinking.

Cinnamon: you know? Like, there's no reason to throw it away until... You are ready. It's a newspaper clipping. It can't be taking up that much space. I would assume that you are not the first or the last, or the only police officer right now holding on to some kind of memento like that. But at a very basic level, like Psychology 101, my first thought is these were bodies that had been tossed away.

And we're recovered and there is part of our brain that is going to go to that place of I can't toss them away again Now are we thinking that consciously? Of course not because if we've had that conscious thought we would Know immediately That doesn't make sense. Of course, it's paper. It's not a body, but it's the sentiment of again, it goes back to What was the story behind it? Was there an investigation that, didn't save them in time, that makes it a little more complicated, without knowing those details, but my biggest thing is if you've recovered bodies, that means that somehow they were in a place that we typically don't want a body to be and it may have been that it got thrown away. And especially if you've seen the disrespect that's been done to the bodies, you're going to have a psychological barrier of throwing that 

Erin: Yeah. and, again, gosh. It's I wish we could be working with this person so we could really get to the bottom of this and the mystery caller, there's so much backstory that is available here. 

Cinnamon: The mystery caller, not just The anonymous caller. 

Erin: The other thing I was thinking too was, we hear this well, through our clients and through our guests on the show, where they'll have a critical incident and run and hard thing over and over and over again, and then it was like this one thing.

That sealed the deal, and it stuck the landing and the next thing they know, it changed the trajectory of their life. And so, that was kind of what I was thinking too, was the run that really cemented everything else that had happened in this caller's career prior to that. The one that really highlighted the ugh of how challenging this job can be.

Cinnamon: Or that first powerful sense of powerlessness or helplessness. even hopeless, you all of those things that

Erin: come to mind when we think about if things don't turn out the way we want them while we're doing our job. if we've made a mistake and mementos can serve as reminders, you know, I don't want to forget this.

Cinnamon: Because regardless of if I actually did something wrong or made a misstep, we know we all think that, right? Could I have done something differently? And that in and of itself, when we have that experience the first time, I think that's worth on to something. Because it's the only way we can really physically preserve that memory of that moment, This is when the trajectory turned and this is when I knew I was in the right place or actually what being an L. E. O. meant or the first time I couldn't save someone. 

Erin: yeah, 

Cinnamon: You know, there's so many things that piece of paper can mean.

Erin: yeah, and I do want to say, it's a very common behavior, and Cinnamon already touched on it, like, don't throw it away. There's no reason to throw it away. There's also nothing wrong with you, or off, or strange, because you're choosing to hold onto it, and you might not ever know why. Why you held onto it or what thing is and it doesn't even really matter.

There's a reason and if in some way it may brings you peace or allows you to feel like There's closure or maybe there hasn't been closure and that's why you're holding on to it. But either way It's okay to keep itIt's not hurting anybody. I was thinking about when my mother passed away and I was thinking about how she used to sit in this wicker chair in her bedroom and drink her glass of wine and watch her Days of Our Lives soap opera that she recorded on her and when she died, I kept that chair and I drugged that chair from house to house to house. For her. Years, because it was the place where my mom rested and relaxed, like it was her happy space. And I remember thinking, if I get rid of this chair, I have no use for it, but if I get rid of it, then it's like.

I'm getting rid of my mom's peaceful spot, and it's such a bizarre thing and I finally did get rid of it first of all, I know my mom and she would be like, throw that shit away. Like, she was like the least, hoarder kind of person. She was very organized. 

Cinnamon: Or sentimental. 

Erin: Or sentimental. Yeah, she didn't like stuff and she definitely wasn't that sentimental. But, um, Or at least she didn't show it, and I know that's a personal relationship and it might not quite be the same, but it doesn't mean that that particular experience didn't represent a personal relationship, that it touched you in a different way. And there's nothing organized about the traumatic experiences that we have and we never know which one's going to affect us, but it's so normal. That's what I'm going to keep saying. 

Cinnamon: you and I are pretty big fans of true crime. Podcasts, we are those weirdo wives who, fall asleep, to podcasts about murdering your husbands. God bless those men for putting up with us.

but. one of the things that they do is they bring in the law enforcement officers that participated. And this is not an uncommon thing. I also would say we're in an era where we don't have a lot of newspapers left. 

Erin: So it's a relic. It's vintage. 

Cinnamon: Yes. What we typically do is we're Googling, we're scrolling their social media. We are sharing online articles or downloading them. and sometimes maybe we're not because that, I don't know. So if, folks out there, our listeners, if you have a folder on your phone or your computer of archived articles of events, let us know, I'm curious about that I was at my grandmother's house this weekend looking for antique Christmas ornaments, and I found this stack of newspapers that, I found this stack of newspapers that, We're all about Reds baseball and I mean it was like Like Like Johnny Bench kind of era,

Erin: So did you bring it home so you can frame it for Christmas for Ed? Mm 

Cinnamon: Since my dad won’t listen to this. Yes I did I brought it home if my dad listened to this I would never admit that but yes I did bring it home I just think it's so important For people to find something that they can touch, something that's tangible, I had to go to the hospital 20 years ago, and my nephew, who would have been seven at the most at the time, he brought me one of his stuffed animals. Even he knew at seven. I know Zach brought me a little stuff. I still have it. A pastel colored dinosaur. 

Erin: Of course you do. 

Cinnamon: because It reminded me of feeling loved this little guy Like went through his toy box and found something that he wanted to give to me so I could hold on to it While I was in the hospital, so We keep things we want to touch things and there is So much shit in my house that I cannot bring myself to throw away So I don't think it's unusual in general, and when it's been a critical incident that we've been involved in specifically and it elicits the emotions that we have been told not to feel around our work, it may not make sense to us, and we may not even know the exact reason why, but we know that there's a reason somewhere in our brain. 

Erin: Yeah. 

Cinnamon: And this would be one of those situations that I would love to do a little ART or EMDR on and be like, I don't know, why did you keep it? And then,

Erin: Yeah, 

Cinnamon: see what comes up for him. 

Erin: what I can say from personal experience, and if you listen to episode 31, I believe, the Pain into Purpose episode that I had recorded on a whim after my boyfriend had died, I couldn't look at pictures of us. I couldn't. I couldn't, it just broke my heart and that was before really we used our phones as cameras.

I mean, we did, but it just wasn't the same and we had an actual camera, and a flash drive with photos on it and I got rid of it. And today I regret that tremendously. at the time it felt more painful to have that stuff around and now it feels more painful to not have it around. 

Cinnamon: Well, and the last time you and I had a, friend conversation where we weren't working. know, you said, I just, I want to go get our blankie and go lay on his grave. And I said, then do it. that blanket means so much to you, right? it's these connections that we keep, and what would it mean if how our brain is seeing that, is if we get rid of this, we will forget them, 

Erin: Yeah. 

Cinnamon: right? If I don't have that blanket to remind me, I will forget. And maybe it's, I don't want to forget how impactful and devastating the loss of that was. There's also the flip side, and This is, again, a little bit confusing, and may not apply because we don't know the role, but can you imagine the, I don't want to say joy, that's not the right word, but maybe the relief if this father and daughter had been missing and no one could find them and After searches and searches and searches, they were able to find them and bring them home to their family so they could be properly buried and laid to rest in the way that someone who loved them would want to lay them to rest.

It may have been that good feeling of, this is why I do this job, 

Erin: Mhm. 

Cinnamon: because maybe if it wasn't me, it wouldn't have been anyone. And I contributed to making the most horrific situation for our family, just a teeny tiny bit better. Because we listen to podcasts all the time where they're still missing. And... 

Erin: It's the worst. 

Cinnamon: Yeah, and I hear people say at this point like if they get the bad guy great But really I just want my daughter to come home my son to come home my whoever to come home I want to be able to bring them home And this officer was able to do that for that family.

Erin: I hope that 

Cinnamon: is basically we have no idea 

Erin: We have no idea. 

We have no idea. And I think it's one thing to be sitting in session or to be working with someone for a while and or even he just hear their story in one setting. when I got to sit in on an EMDR session the gentleman had mentioned something that happened to his childhood and then mentioned something again that had happened in adulthood and couldn't figure out why it affected him And I was like, Oh, it's because it's the mirror image of this thing that affected you in childhood. That's exactly why, you know, it was like, boom, boom. And it made perfect sense. And then when I shared that with him, he was like, Oh, but because we don't have that information, We can't say, could it be that this looks just like this?

And it doesn't matter. I,feel like we have provided enough what ifs or maybes or possibly is that hopefully this caller can find an answer. If an answer is even necessary. I just, I don't know that an answer is necessary to know why. if it feels good to keep it, keep it. If it feels bad, don't keep it it's that simple. It doesn't matter what anybody else says.

Cinnamon: I would say because of what you just shared about the photos and the flash drive don't do something that you feel like you should do When you're not a hundred percent sold on the idea because I would much rather have a newspaper clipping Causing that clutter whatever rather than The longing that, Erin's talking about of like, I wish I hadn't. The other thing is, Somebody's gonna find that one day, after we're gone and it's a story of 

your career and the life that you lived and the contribution that you made. when I was in fourth grade, I did a project on Hiroshima and the bombing. And my grandmother must have given me some photos and sent them to school with me, taped into an orange colored, manila like folder.

And I found them again recently. And it was in that finding, where it dawned on me, my grandfather was there. These were photos that someone had taken with their own camera from above. And when I was in fourth grade, I couldn't understand the gravity of that. hell, I couldn't even properly pronounce the city.

I couldn't. Comprehend the devastation that a bomb like that would create. But as an adult, re finding those, gave me a completely different perspective on the event, on the photos, on my grandfather. and yeah, there's always time to get rid of things. But sometimes you just can't recover  things that... You've lost or let go of prematurely. 

Erin: Yeah. one other thing that just popped in my head too, Cin, when you were sharing that was about the career as a whole. Is this individual retired? Are they grieving, 

Cinnamon: It's a good chance with the newspaper. 

Erin: Are they grieving? the job, as a whole. And this was a memento from when he was actively working, and a big case that he worked, and a big 

Cinnamon: Pride! 

 Erin: right, a big event, and now the career has ended, and so on and so forth, and there's that, too. So gosh, we could speculate. Send us an email…

Cinnamon: Can you call us back and let us buy you a plane ticket to Ohio if you're not already here? or we will road trip to your house and we can discuss this further. and then maybe we can help you a little bit more because now Erin and I, like, it's gonna be like six months later. And we'll be like, oh, I just thought of another reason why that guy may still have… 

Erin: The newspaper clipping. 

Cinnamon: that newspaper and it's just gonna be like random. We'll be, traveling for I'm like, but On, the flip side of what we do, I would definitely, if it is possible with your therapist, this would be a great candidate for a bilateral stimulation therapy, like accelerated resolution therapy, or EMDR, eye movement desensitization reprocessing, because this.

Is one of those things that whether it's us or even the therapist that knows you, we're not going to know the exact answer. We may have theories, and we may even... end up being right with our theories, but there's nothing more valuable in a therapeutic setting than coming to that realization on your own.

And when we do things that utilize that bilateral stimulation, it connects our brains around events that have not been able to connect and. That is so valuable to be able to come up with the answer yourself. And even last week I did it with, one of our clients and it was like, oh, okay.

I'm like, I don't know the answer, but why don't we do a little, eye movement or pulsation on that, and 

Erin: Yeah, it's magic. hopefully soon we'll have,Trevor Wilkins on too, who was, an officer and now he's, 

Cinnamon: A PhD 

Erin: he is an EMDR guru I would love to share with our listener how impactful EMDR is because awesome What do they call it the tappy shit? 

Cinnamon: Yeah. the tappy shit. And here's the thing about what I love about Trevor. So he was Kentucky State Police and then went to school to become a therapist and you are more likely to find someone like Trevor in Like a mechanic shop or like a car or an auto body shop or part of the Hells Angels. I don't know Then you would doing what he actually does when you're expecting someone to fit into a stereotype I actually funny that we're talking about him.

I texted Trevor this morning. Yeah I'll tell you once we're you know, Yeah, what we have learned about bilateral stimulation therapies such as EMDR and, accelerated resolution therapy is that it allows our brains to function in a way that we haven't been able to on our own. It's almost like we're recreating REM sleep, that rapid eye movement where In a normal person during the dream state, what's absent is adrenaline, and they can sort through and consolidate memories.

And when it's been something traumatic or, a distressing event, then we can, know that there's going to be a breakdown in how our brain is processing that. And bilateral simulation therapy kind of like restores that breakdown. And I am very much known for handing people aha moments, cause I get impatient, but There's nothing more fulfilling as a therapist than having someone connect the dots on their own 

Erin: Oh, yeah, definitely .So, Caller, thank you, we appreciate you, and Feel free to let us know if we were in the realm of accuracy, it doesn't really matter, but if you feel called to let us know, then we would happily receive that information. So hopefully this makes sense to anybody that might be holding onto a memento, maybe this is something that you needed to hear today too.

So hopefully it helps you organize and sort out the reasons behind you keeping that item. 

Cinnamon: what I want everyone to take away is like trust yourself if You're not ready Then don't, and if you are, then do, and if you are taking an action, like throwing something away because of what you think you should be doing or where you think you should be, I'm a proponent of not shoulding on yourself, should is probably judgy, and we can make judgments when our, brain isn't ready, And then we have regret and maybe even compound feelings of grief. is grief one of the emotions that you feel, E, when you think about that thrown away flash drive?

Erin: Oh my gosh. Yes. but this has been like the grief month. it's like the never ending grief process, but it's beautiful. I get to feel I get to um, go through it, 

Cinnamon: Yeah, 

Erin: But yeah, definitely grief. 

Cinnamon: kind of along those lines, When I was trying to explain to everybody, why, even though I had intended to be in town this past weekend, all of a sudden I wasn't going to be and that wasn't part of my plan. I started to notice that people would be like, Oh my God, I'm so sorry. And I would just stop them.

And I'm like, my cousin died. I'm fine. I just, I'm letting you know, because this is why I'm leaving. And. think Saturday, that fear that our clients talk about of I'm afraid to cry because I don't know if I'll be able to stop. And I'm always like, of course you're going to stop.If nothing else, you'll become too dehydrated. 

Erin: you can't create tears,

Cinnamon: right. it's natural, but wow. Did I empathize with them on Saturday? I just. Out of nowhere right as we were getting up to end the funeral it just started and it did not Stop for like five hours. I was leaking and I was so much more emotional and Distraught than I was preparing for so I say that it's important To know that you're not going to be able to always predict how you're going to handle something.

I'm not spending a lot of time going, Gee, why was I so emotionally moved by all that? it 

Erin: Yeah. 

Cinnamon: what it was. And I just accept it.

Erin: Thank you. All right, caller. Good luck to you, and maybe we'll hear from you sometime in the near future. 

Cinnamon: Erin, what is the email address for us for After the Tones Drop if, our caller wants to email us and give us 

Erin: Well, we can be contacted through the contact page of the website, afterthetonesdrop. com, or we can be emailed at info@afterthetonesdrop.Com. Either way, we will get the information. Since our caller was able to leave a message on the hotline, he's familiar with our website. So that's the good news. 

Cinnamon: yeah, 

Erin: All right, 

Cinnamon: alright, 

Erin: everybody take care, be safe, and we'll see you all soon. 

Cinnamon: bye.