Hotline Caller: Workplace Survivors Guilt

Hotline Caller: Workplace Survivors Guilt

Erin: 
[00:00:00] Okay, and welcome back. During today's show, we will be featuring another hotline caller, whoop, whoop, whoop. And a few minutes we'll share the call with you. But essentially our caller shares his struggle with leaving a larger department with a high call volume to go to a smaller department, and that was in order to focus on his mental health.

Cinnamon:
Look at that great choice. 

Erin:
I know. Can you believe it? 

Cinnamon:
Believe how many people decide. Career paths based on mental health. That's kind of new. 

Erin:
That is very new, especially around these parts. Right? Right. Yeah. And so what he shares in this message is a feeling of abandoning his former coworkers. And he relates to it feeling almost like a sense of survivor's guilt. And I find that interesting because we often hear that term survivor's guilt in regards to like soldiers coming home and coming back from war. You know, leaving and, their comrades[00:01:00] don't come back with them, is really, yeah.

Cinnamon:
What you most often hear. But the truth of the matter is that survivor's guilt can develop in any person for various reasons. Yeah. I think that . There's a lot of words that we use in the mental health world that have a different definition or a more narrow meaning just in the lay person's use of, English. And so when we think of survivor, it's usually that there's only one way to survive someone else. And that's requires somebody to die. Yeah. But there's a lot of different ways to survive things.

Erin:
Well, I mean, you hear about surviving a, bad relationship, you know, and that doesn't mean that , that somebody passed away, that means that somebody got out alive. 

Cinnamon:
Well, and even how we use the word like, I'm a trauma survivor or I'm , a sexual assault [00:02:00] survivor. That, movement that went from identifying as a victim to a survivor I don't know, maybe like in the nineties that was.In the nineties where, sorry, that didn't pop everybody else's head. Yeah, yeah. Like , there's gonna be , some people listening that might not have been born in the nineties, but when that, movement went from, I don't wanna be labeled a victim. I'd rather identify as a survivor.

Like that wasn't necessarily in relation to how we think about it when we think about survivor's guilt. Mm-hmm. Right. So I think when we. Have that even small conversation, we start to realize, okay, , this can have a, different meaning, a different understanding than what we're used to. And it can \ fit in a variety of boxes that we wouldn't organically just go to put them in.

But let's go [00:03:00] ahead, let's play the hotline call now and let's do what we got. Let folks, yeah, let folks here for themselves. Okay.

Yeah, so it sounds like a few things are going on here. It's that feeling of, yeah, the potential survivor's guilt combined with this feeling that he quit or gave up. , there's even this other piece that I caught that I hadn't caught before, just listening to it this time through, is we've been focusing on the mental health burnout that he mentions as a reason, but he also says the physical burnout and I would go as far to say that's not just the , getting up and down with every tone that drops, but also, you know, your [00:04:00] knees, your rotator cuffs, that piece.

All the injuries that you're going to endure if you are, , a paramedic moving around a gurney or if you're a police officer that carries a belt you know, there's a physical toll that our bodies take and then we can get into what it looks like to. Be on the paramedic rotation at a busy urban department.

Mm-hmm. You're not sleeping. I was thinking the same thing. Like, you're not ever getting a chance to recoup , and regenerate , and your body to heal from any wear and tear. Yeah. And God bless these folks. I, I am always astounded by how many of them want. To have a part-time job and I'm like, you're working, you know, 80 hours in a two week period and you get these days off because you physically need it, but there's so much adrenaline that the idea of just sitting still is [00:05:00] intolerable.

So now not only are they potentially sleep deprived and just burning through muscles and tendons, But then when they do have the chance, they're so elevated that actually resting feels miserable mm-hmm. In a lot of ways. So all of those physical pieces ultimately do contribute to the, mental burnout that the collar mentions.

And, you know, the Oxford Dictionary defines it as a condition of persistent mental and emotional stress experienced by someone who has survived an incident in which others have died. But clinically we're gonna expand on that.

Like we're not gonna have it in such , a small box. It's going to be a response to an event in which someone else experienced a loss but you didn't. Mm-hmm. And so while the name implies this to be [00:06:00] a response to the loss of life, it also could be a loss of property, health identity, a job, or even A number of other things that can be important to people like in the workplace.

We saw all of this kind of go on with the layoffs of Covid, where teammates were. Losing their other teammates. And if layoffs were happening, maybe I was in, , the third round, but my friend and decimate was in the second round or the first round, like when you're still the one going in for a paycheck.

We saw that happening during that period of time, and it was a completely new population that we would never have. Tied the term survivor's guilt back to, but that's what, something like a global pandemic can do. It can start to reshape and redefine our past experiences. So is, survivor's guilt like a diagnosis?[00:07:00] 

So survivor syndrome or survivor's guilt, I would put more in a category of just post-traumatic stress. Okay. . So it doesn't have to be in that small box. According to the criterion when we think of the traditional survivor's guilt, it makes sense because we talk about actual or threatened death actual or threatened serious injury, but, Were able as clinicians to still recognize that it was traumatic to, , be in the trenches with someone and then all of a sudden either we're out and they're not, or we're still there and that person is missing.

Hmm. Right. So either way it can still have that negative emotional effect. Okay. But in this case, our caller chose to leave on his own.

So it wasn't like in regards to a layoff. , in this instance, it sounds kind of like there's [00:08:00] almost this burden of having the freedom of choice, you know, the habit that people have of deceiving themselves into thinking that they do not have the freedom to make a choice for fear of the potential consequences.

 You see that happen. Like maybe here, the consequence that was received was that he feels like he abandoned his peeps. , and now he feels guilty of feeling like he quit or gave up. Almost like I think damned if you do, damned if you don't in this regard.

Well, that's kind of the tricky thing in this. Well, oftentimes choice can be a privilege, and we get to recognize that not everyone has the same choices available to them. We are actually currently in a first responder hiring crisis. Yeah, I've talked to folks who have never experienced such low applicant numbers and competent potential hires.

Mm-hmm. , it may have been you had two positions and 500 people show up, where now you may have two [00:09:00] positions and one person applies. So we're in a very. I would say unique to me, to my experience since getting involved. I'm sure there's been people who have, those 25 plus years on that may have seen something else like this, but there's a lot of people actively in departments right now who have not seen this kind of thing.

And so this actually may be an ideal time to get out. When you can can and find somewhere new. Yeah, because you can, we can choose that now. Many things are gonna impact that choice, whether or not someone can make it. But it's there. And we also may see this decrease in viable candidates. I'm always looking for the mental health upside and this can be a source of encouragement for departments to, , examine those policies and that culture.

Mm-hmm. You know, it is a luxury [00:10:00] when people know that jobs are hard to get, that we may see people being treated any which way. Yeah. But when our workforce has a choice, then all of a sudden that power differential changes and. People have the freedom to not have to tolerate some of the things that they've had to tolerate in the past.

And while I'm certainly not trying to create a podcast where we, you know, slam leadership, , we love so many of our departmental leaders, it is the reality that a lot of things happen because they always have and like, well, and things don't change unless this episode, things don't change unless something presents itself.

In order for change to happen, right? So things have to happen culturally in the workplace or wherever for policies to change. And so this isn't to [00:11:00] slam anyone. This is a great opportunity for anyone in a leadership position to look at it and say, Hmm, this is curious. And interesting. What can we do to make it more appealing to apply here and stay here?

Y Yeah, exactly. It's not the dog, anybody. It's a great learning opportunity. So as far as our caller goes, when someone leaves a job and they're doing the best they can and they know that, hey, maybe my mental health is taken a hit. And also the caller had mentioned physical health. Why do you think they often feel a sense of guilt 

or like they abandoned the folks around them like they've abandoned their former coworkers? So I think what you're asking is that, where is that sense of guilt or abandonment coming from like when.

We are intellectually aware of that choice. Where's the emotional piece coming from? And my answer to that is emotion and [00:12:00] logic are two very different things. And we can feel one thing while we know something else. I would also say when you're working so closely with folks for a number of years, you have to remember this is a really intimate job.

Yeah. You sleep with these people next to you, you. Well, if you're oftentimes in the fire service, if, if you're in the fire service, service, yes. , you put your draws in the same load of laundry, you're eating meals together you know who has a C P A P and who doesn't you know, who doesn't use their C P A P and should or needs to go for that sleep apnea test.

You know you vented to each other about how rough things can get, and you've complained to each other about how environmental factors have negatively affected you. Now, they're likely not saying that like, Hey, do you have a minute to listen to me talk about how environmental factors are negatively affecting me?

That's not what it's gonna look like. Why not? Because no one talks like that. But [00:13:00] if we're changing the culture, let's just go for it. Well, that, I think while we're at it, that may be like baby steps, Aaron baby steps too much, too intense. But you know, it's, yeah. It's gonna be like, okay, that's bullshit.

Can you believe that decision was made or, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, , I can't believe so-and-so had this happen and or that. That choice was made or, or whatever. So it's not only the run stuff, but what I learned coming into this is that there's also just like politics. Yeah. Right. Whether it is, oh, I saw a bad thing, or there's something to be disgruntled with that's happening.

Within the organization that level of intimacy like. When you're spending that kind of time with people, you get invested. Mm-hmm. You get invested in their lives. You get invested in their spouses, invested in their kids. They hold some of your secrets, you hold some of theirs, and [00:14:00] so now we're moving on.

And you're not faced with those challenges anymore. But you know that that other person still is, and even if you have new or different challenges, it doesn't mean that you can't feel like you still left a man in the trenches. Sure. So it sounds like a combination , of the emotional connections, like the guilt from the emotional connections that you've created with these folks that you work with because you were speaking into like the more intimate parts of the job.

And then also the concern for the overall wellbeing of those that were left behind. Yeah. And, here's the thing, feeling guilty is normal, right? Guilt is an emotion available to us, so therefore we're allowed to feel it. And guilt is, I did something wrong.

Right? Mm-hmm. So when we are thinking that we've done something [00:15:00] wrong, it makes sense to feel guilty. That doesn't mean that you are guilty of doing something wrong, it just means that it is an emotion that we have available to us, and so therefore there are going to be times when we feel it, right? And it still doesn't mean you did anything wrong, right?

And. I would even flip it around and say it's actually a reflection of empathy and connection. Mm-hmm. That you have , and still have, which is actually a protective factor in this line of work. Yeah. And seems to me like you can't sacrifice your own wellbeing for the sake of others.

 It's kind of that idea of, taking yourself down a notch to meet the peers around you. It's like, Dimming your light. Dimming your light. Yeah. , kind of feels like it's in that realm a little bit. We ain't hiding shit under no bushels. Do you remember that part of the song?

Nope. You don't? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the part where Hide your light under the [00:16:00] bushel. No, I'm gonna let it shine. Oh. Okay. I'm sorry. Thank you. Vbs. Did you not? VBS is back in the day Need. Yeah, the V that is vbs. Exactly. So hide it under a bushel. No, I, I mean, other than a unit of measurement. I don't know what a bushel is.

I would like to know a bushel of what? Like a bushel of straw. A bushel of hay. If we've got any full-time First responders part-time. Farmers out there that want to leave a comment and let us know what they are making that bushel to be. I'd like to know yes, because God forbid we Google something, but anyways.

Oh, I mean, it's good. You're just gonna search it up. It's to search it up. We're gonna search it up like, the nine year olds are doing, searching things up, but. But that's a good thing to know. It's a good thing to know that it is a reflection of empathy and connection and that you care because [00:17:00] otherwise, well, I guess you'd just be a sociopath, right?

I mean, I mean that is certainly an option. Yes. Yes. So I love how you bring it back around when I force us to go off on tangents. Well, our listeners can, I appreciate that. Can handle it, I'm sure for limited amounts of time, but, but they probably don't wanna hear me sing again. But, well, my question for you is what strategies can you suggest then for someone who's grappling with feelings after leaving a job, these kinds of feelings of guilt and like they abandoned their coworkers and even though they know that they needed to do it for themselves?

What are the strategies that you could suggest? First I will say , you can maintain those relationships. I know that a lot of times when you don't see them on your shift the calls drop off, ? Like, we forget to check on people. We don't call as frequently, [00:18:00] and that. Isn't necessarily .

Intentional, but it's actually a lack of mindfulness. Mm-hmm. . , and I've seen people feel guilty about it, and I've seen people feel hurt by it. ? Like they forgot about me. And I've also seen, I feel so terrible that I have not reached out to that person. So knowing that that's two sides of the same coin, 

And it's not intentional. It's just we don't take the time. this is where we get to be intentional. We get to prioritize the people that we care about in the ways that even if it's just a text once a week where we are able to say, Hey, I'm thinking about you. Or even a text once a month, a phone call once a month.

Just you're still in, my uppermost thoughts. Mm-hmm. The other thing that we have, Is what I'm gonna just, it's called, it's called a balanced decision making sheet. That's lame worksheet. Which is super lame. So I just call it my ProCon ProCon list. ProCon [00:19:00] ProCon. And so it actually is a tool that we use in dialectical behavioral therapy.

But most of us tend to say, okay, what are the pros and cons of this thing? Mm-hmm. ? What are the pros and cons of X? But in dialectical behavioral therapy, it's this extra challenge of, okay, so what are the pros and cons of. Staying the same. Mm-hmm. And what are the pros and cons of this change that we're considering?

 So we, if we're considering leaving a job, we already know all the things and they're probably in the front part of our mind when we're thinking about it that we don't like.

That's what's motivating us to leave perhaps. . So we only think about what are the pros and cons of taking this other job. What we don't really reflect on because it's almost like either we don't think it's important or it feels like it's already built in, and sometimes there is an overlap, but most of the time you're going to have very unique things of what are the pros and cons of staying where you are, ?

[00:20:00] So option one is not changing anything. What are the pros and cons of that? And then option two is the change. Mm-hmm. What are the pros and cons of that? And the reason I like this so well is it makes us articulate so many things that we frequently leave unspoken. So, It may be, oh, there's a, bigger backyard at this new house that , I wanna move into.

Okay. Well what's the con of leaving the backyard that I have right now? Mm-hmm. Well, I've already put my raised beds in, my dog is familiar with it, and we already put the fence up, got our new riding lawnmower for this particular yard. Yeah, I think we just assume. That all we need to look at is the choice.

Mm-hmm. But really, there's value in looking at , why are we willing to change? And what will we lose if we change? [00:21:00] Yeah, that makes sense. One other thing , that I think is important to say is that it's very important to remind yourself, that. You made this decision to leave for a very valid reason, and so , prioritizing your mental health is essential.

And by doing so, you're also potentially setting an example for what it looks like to put your mental health first and before anything else. , if I'm going to be questioned about why I made a career choice, I would love. For one of my reasons to be, because it's what I needed to do to prioritize my mental health.

Mm-hmm. We just simply don't have enough people making career choices for that specific reason. Yeah. And what we end up seeing is people's [00:22:00] mental health in the toilet because they didn't think they could make that choice. Yeah. And so, While I understand this person's feelings and they are valid, they're yours.

You get to feel them. I actually wanna take the time to celebrate this caller and say kudos to you for leaving people that you loved. A place that you loved to make your quality of life better. Cuz remember, these are our helpers. Mm-hmm. They help. They put themselves last. And I don't think that it is a coincidence that someone who does this kind of work is feeling guilty about making a decision in which they prioritize themselves.

Yeah. Like, welcome to a first responder's brain. Mm-hmm. [00:23:00] You know, but , it's a hard one. A first responders brain, and anybody that is in a position of focusing out as their career, whether it's a doctor or a nurse, a, a therapist, you know, perhaps it's, it is our nature to put everybody else before ourselves.

So I agree with cinnamon. What a very brave step to take. To choose that for yourself and also what a very brave step to call the hotline and leave this message. Because I imagine, especially with Cinnamon saying that how the industry is looking as far as jobs go that maybe this call could help somebody else to make that informed decision on what's best for them in terms of their mental health and their career, and what the next steps might be for them.

, and one other thing that I [00:24:00] would want to just mention before we sign off is going back to that ProCon ProCon list. What are the pros when it comes to your family? Mm-hmm. Like how much more of you do they get? How less tired are you? How more emotionally available are you? How many more moments do you get to capture with your family that you might not have because you needed more sleep the next day?

Because you had been up all night being busy. So I think that when we reframe this, there's an abundance. Of good reasons to applaud this individual's decision. So kudos to you caller. Absolutely. And we look forward to hearing more messages from our [00:25:00] callers. So don't hesitate to hop on the website after the tones drop.com and click the little tab on the right of your screen that says A T T D hotline voicemail. Click on there and it's super easy. It's just a big old button. Just a big old button. So we look forward to being able to use your calls to continue to help your brothers and sisters and the next first responder.

Hell, people that aren't even first responders can benefit from these calls. So we look forward to getting more. Absolutely, because all of us can be employed and apply all of this for sure. All right, well thanks Cinnamon. I always appreciate your big, beautiful brain and your expertise