Internal Storms: Navigating Negative Alterations of Mood and Mind

EP15-Internal Storms

[00:00:00]
Erin: hi, hey Cinnamon, 

[00:00:01]
Cinnamon: hey, Erin.

[00:00:02]
Erin: what do you want to talk about? You want to talk about some negative alterations in your thoughts and mood In mood and cognition? 

[00:00:09]
Cinnamon: in mood and cognition, that sounds, that sounds like a fabulous talk, a talkic,

[00:00:14]
Erin: Talkic. Yeah, that could be a new word.

[00:00:16]
Cinnamon: a talkic. Yeah, what are we gonna talk about? The main talkic. you know, I hadn't had anything else planned for this evening other than perhaps a little dinner later. So, now that you bring it up, I am very much so in a mood to talk about negative alterations in mood and cognition. 

[00:00:32]
Erin: Yeah, I mean, it sounds really... Really exciting 

[00:00:35]
Cinnamon: Well, yeah, I mean who doesn't want to talk about when your thoughts get negative and your mood gets shitty? I mean, don't we gossip about that anyway? We're like, oh my gosh can you believe that person's attitude? Or, you know, my gosh, why are you such a like Debbie Downer or a negative Nelly? That kind of 

[00:00:53]
Erin: Negative Nelly, 

[00:00:54]
Cinnamon: I think we actually probably talk about this way more than... 

[00:00:57]
Erin: which I just realized that negative Nelly is that from? 

[00:01:00]
Cinnamon: Nellie Olsen... Nellie Olsen?

[00:01:03]
Erin: okay I now I get it. Is that what it is?

[00:01:06] Cinnamon: 
I don't know, but that is brilliant. 

[00:01:09]
Erin: Do we just have an aha moment? 

[00:01:10]
Cinnamon: We should check it out

[00:01:12]
Erin: Yeah, I wouldn't have known that 

[00:01:13]
Cinnamon: So Aaron is talking about Nellie Olsen because I just finished a book called confessions of a prairie bitch and it was by Allison Ingram and she's the woman that played Nellie Olsen and She was very negative. Why can I not see you? Why? There. Thank you. It's hard to talk to a black square. 

[00:01:35]
Erin: I couldn't see you either. You were You were black like my soul. 

[00:01:40]
Cinnamon: Papa, can you see me?

[00:01:41]
Erin: Yeah,

[00:01:42]
Cinnamon: can you hear me? 

[00:01:44]
Erin: you guys can't see us, but Cinnamon and I are in the same house in two different rooms to help with the echo and so I'm in a dark room 

[00:01:53]
Cinnamon: Behind closed doors 

[00:01:55]
Erin: yes, we are just doing what we got to do to bring out some more information about the effects that trauma has on our brain and our body, even if it means one of us is in a dark hole. So, 

[00:02:08]
Cinnamon: both of us are not well lit. 

[00:02:11]
Erin: it's true. 

[00:02:11]
Cinnamon: So here's the thing that I think is interesting about this particular one, we kind of talk about the idea of having PTSD, Like, I have this disorder, but what you really have, what we really have, is just symptoms, Like, these symptom clusters, and if somebody's like, I don't think I have PTSD, okay, great, but Let me ask you some questions about what you're struggling with. 

[00:02:39]
Erin: You got a butt ton of symptoms.

[00:02:41]
Cinnamon: exactly. the diagnosis is so secondary. It really is just a way for clinicians to communicate to each other, to make treatment a little more rapid. It was never intended to turn into what it has. shitload of stigma. And we have not done a great job in the medical world of kind of putting a diagnosis back in its place. And I will go on forever about, why insurance companies have turned something into something it was never supposed to be.  it is what it is. So, 

[00:03:18]
Erin: that's for a different day.

[00:03:19]
Cinnamon: that's for a different day, that's for one of my rants over the dinner table. But yeah, I think this is a big category, that people don't always think about in terms of P.T. S. Because it's not the big ones, it's not the dissociation, it's not the flashbacks, it's not the nightmares. You know, it's when we think somebody's just being an asshole. And I think there's so many people. That get written off because they have had a negative alteration in their mood and cognition or the way they think and the way they feel that what is actually symptomatic is getting written off as somebody with a bad attitude who doesn't want to change it and therefore is a lost cause. And that's how we see people lose a lot of friends.

[00:04:06]
Erin: I was just talking about this today with some of the folks and the trainings that we're going to be bringing to the families. Cinnamon and I are in the middle of doing a wellness assessments for a new department and one of the things we're doing is bringing trainings, not only to the first responders, but to the families of the first responders to help them get some education and understanding just what is happening with their first responder. One of the things that I'm looking forward to is Working with the wives and the significant others of them because often they have this feeling of why is my husband or my wife such a jerk and why are they so mean to me or why do they always seem angry with me or, they just seem like a different person. I feel like it's always me and it's helping them understand that it's not you. They're actually not a jerk. That's right. Yeah, They might have a little bit of an injury, so their brain's a little wackadoo right now and we're gonna help them straighten it back out, you know It's nothing that's they are intentionally doing more or less So I'm looking forward to being able to help the spouses or the partners understand

[00:05:12]
Cinnamon: in the work that you've gotten to do, do you feel like you've seen a lot of spouses struggle with this?

[00:05:18]
Erin: definitely This is 100%, I think, one of the most common things with couples is that they feel like their partner is not themselves anymore or that they don't know how to talk to them or that they're angry or disconnected, that their outlook has become negative. Often the partner of this first responder will take it very personally because of course we do. so helping them understand that here's what's going on in your first all the events that they've experienced have accumulated into this as the reaction and it's not you and it's not intentional. And so while we work with your first responder to help them with. their brain. We can work with you in helping you understand exactly what's going on. And what I found is that it allows them to come with more compassion because they're not taking it personally. Just like we would come with compassion if someone broke their leg, or had cancer, or you know, whatever the thing is, like we're not gonna be a big jerk about it. We would be more compassionate. So I think that's really helpful to understand from the other side. 

[00:06:22]
Cinnamon: do you, think based on your work that this miscommunication or this like missing what's actually happening and not understanding how this looks and how this works, costs us a lot of marriages.

[00:06:40]
Erin: Yes. Yeah. And we've said it before, there's trainings all day, every day for the first responder, but nobody educates the families on what to expect, or what, potential things are to look out for or how you can support your first responder when they're coming up against some, causes and concerns like there just isn't anything out there. And so automatically as human beings, we take it personally.

[00:07:05]
Cinnamon: I think I read somewhere earlier this week, this is my entertaining reading, is that while the national average of divorce has stayed the same, It's at 50%, 

[00:07:17]
Erin: Yeah. Mm hmm. 

[00:07:18]
Cinnamon: our first responders are coming in as a population in and of themselves at over 60% of a national divorce rate. So we know that there's something not working when it comes to relationships and, and I see so many young folks that are married or starting their families and they're so excited. They're so in love. They're so excited and Somewhere along the line. I don't doubt that a lot of the more senior folks that we work with they didn't look and feel like that at the beginning too and I don't think that nightmares is gonna cause a divorce Right, like having a flashback isn't necessarily gonna cause a divorce seeing A traumatic event isn't necessarily going to cause a divorce.

[00:08:06]
Erin: Mm hmm. 

[00:08:07]
Cinnamon: but this is the one that can tear relationships apart. And like Erin said, I'm a firm believer that we have lost a great resource when we see all of these departments without women's auxiliaries, where the wives connect and give or spouses, There's so many females. I don't want to diminish that. It's just kind of a habit I need to break. But, you get out of fire school, you get out of the academy, you get your, paramedic certification, and you go to work every day and somebody is molding you. Somebody's teaching you. They're showing you the ropes. We don't have that for our first responder spouses.

[00:08:50]
Erin: Right. 

[00:08:51]
Cinnamon: I think that along the same lines of what you were talking about, Aaron, is that I'm excited, we're excited to be able to hone in on this kind of thing when we talk to families. Because I think it will just open eyes, and validate, and also kind of like, oh, thank God he's not a different person, she's not a different person. These are things on top of the person, they're symptomatic layers, not that the core person has necessarily changed.

[00:09:22]
Erin: Right. So, that's why they work with us, to get back to the core person, perhaps even more strong, Because they'll have different tools and opportunities and an understanding, which is so big. And Criterion D... it's a doozy. If we are asking people about certain questions or what they're experiencing, a lot of the things that we're asking are in this one criteria.

[00:09:45]
Cinnamon: Yeah. 

[00:09:45]
Erin: Wouldn't you say? 

[00:09:46]
Cinnamon: Yeah. 

[00:09:47]
Erin: I mean, we're obviously looking at all of them, but this one is like the juicy one.

[00:09:51]
Cinnamon: Well, not only do I think it's juicy, I think it's the trickiest one to answer. It requires a level of self awareness, Like, I either know or don't know if I'm having nightmares. if I'm waking up and I think I had a nightmare, but I can't remember anything, that's different, with PTS, most of the time we remember the nightmare, but this is trickier because I can answer these questions very differently than my spouse could about me or your spouse could about you if we're in a rough period and we don't have that awareness. 

[00:10:25]
Erin: Mm 

[00:10:26]
Cinnamon: before we go any further, Erin will you please read criterion D?

[00:10:31]
Erin: Cinnamon is really about my reading skills. 

[00:10:35]
Cinnamon: I love this part. 

[00:10:37]
Erin: Criterion D is negative alterations to mood and cognition as evidenced by two or more of the following. Now here's the big fat list. Inability to remember important aspects of the trauma, exaggerated negative thoughts about oneself, others, or the world, blaming oneself or others for the trauma, persistence, negative. emotional state like fear, horror, anger, guilt, or shame, diminished interest in activities, feelings of detachment or estrangement from others, and inability to experience positive emotions.

[00:11:18]
Cinnamon: Okay. one of the trickiest pieces of this or two pieces together is number four, what you read was a persistent negative emotional state. And then number seven is the persistent inability to experience positive emotions. So it's kind of like I'm chronically in a negative mood, and I actually have lost the capacity to feel positive. So the things that used to excite me don't make me that happy anymore. 

[00:11:50]
Erin: I love how we were reading earlier, explaining this particular criteria where it says, it's like a storm that brews inside your head messing with your emotions and how you see the world.

[00:12:01]
Cinnamon: this criteria as a whole. Yeah? 

[00:12:04]
Erin: Yeah. And what you just said too, it's that persistent negative outlook, in addition to the inability to actually experience the positive emotions, 

[00:12:12]
Cinnamon: Yeah, and, think about how when something really bad happens, our amygdala, our threat detector, is going into hyperdrive and is being overly sensitive and hyperactive in detecting threat. I'm going to find the threat, or the complaint, or the negative thing in everything, Like, you just made me a pie. well, now I can't find the right knife, and I'm gonna have to use another knife, and it's gonna ruin the whole thing. that is a silly example, but it's the idea that when you have experienced something that you did not see coming, it feels very unwise to let yourself get happy, excited, distracted, where that 2x4 is gonna hit you upside the head again. So how do we stay safe? We always keep our eye on the un prize, I'm constantly looking for the things that are bad. And when I'm doing that, who wants to go play weekend soccer or go golf with my buddies like I used to? nothing is fun anymore because you can't get out of that negative persistent state and you also can't feel positive emotions. And why is that happening? Because your body doesn't think it's safe. And Erin, how do you think that shows up in a household?

[00:13:32]
Erin: Ugh. Everybody shuts down. Everybody walks on eggshells. The entire energy and dynamic of the family changes. Children begin to act out. Um, in ways that wouldn't typically act out, might look like tantrums, might look like isolation,

[00:13:48] Cinnamon: What can isolation look like in the house? 

[00:13:50]
Erin: isolation in the house, everyone going to their corners, kids going to their rooms, maybe spouses going to their rooms, completely disconnected, and everybody might be doing it to protect, to the other one, but that actually creates something much more dangerous for the individual who is struggling is to shut themselves up in the room when it gets to that point, everybody typically struggles in the house in some capacity.

[00:14:19]
Cinnamon: so much. You know, I kind of always joke about the guys going down to the basement and sitting in the Lazy Boy with a beer watching ESPN, right?

[00:14:26]
Erin: Mm 

[00:14:27]
Cinnamon: But I think that it doesn't have to be that obvious, it can be we're all sitting in the same room and I am just not present. Like I'm physically present, you can see me in the room. But, I'm not part of the conversation, I'm not actively engaging people, I'm just showing up and getting my ticket stamped to say that I was there.

[00:14:49]
Erin: Right. Yeah. 

[00:14:51]
Cinnamon: And that's where those feelings of detachment or estrangement from others, like it can show up in literal isolation, but it also can show up in mental isolation. And we may even go as far as when one starts to notice. I just don't feel like I'm part of this anymore, or I feel like no one understands me.

[00:15:12]
Erin: Mm hmm. 

[00:15:12]
Cinnamon: And so what's the point of even talking about it?

[00:15:15]
Erin: Well, and that's the thing, often we don't understand, but having this solution of what's the point of even talking about it makes it worse. You know, I honestly believe that the family wants to understand. wants to live in that tension, 

[00:15:32]
Cinnamon: So here's a thought, why have we created the goal to understand? what if don't need to understand 

[00:15:41]
Erin: What if I just need to accept? 

[00:15:43]
Cinnamon: yeah, like, I hear people saying, I talked to other folks who, have held a dead baby in their arms. They get it. And I I hear what they're saying, but I question if understanding is the most important component, because what if I've also held a dead baby in my hand and I say, you know what, if you can't handle it, go get another job, go get your Wendy's application, right? Fill that out. They're hiring. What if I'm like, you know, I've never done that. I can't even fathom how horrible that is. But I will sit with you, and I will listen while you talk, and I will honor that experience that you've had, and I will not diminish what you've experienced. 

[00:16:28]
Erin: I see where you're going 

[00:16:29]
Cinnamon: Like, if we had to pick between somebody who is compassionate versus somebody who understands, And wouldn't it be great if we had both, but if you had to pick one or the other, 

[00:16:40]
Erin: Mm hmm. Compassion every time.

[00:16:43]
Cinnamon: yeah.

[00:16:43]
Erin: thing is, the symptoms applied to this particular criteria is that it really rocks their sense of safety and trust. And so it's hard to be vulnerable. everything feels skewed. they feel like everybody's out to get them. They don't value or know their own worth once it gets to this point sometimes.

[00:17:02]
Cinnamon: So based on what you just said, nothing feels safe, I always think of like if I'm already laying on the ground, you can't knock me down, right? Or I'd rather live in disappointment. Then be disappointed, I don't have that drop of like, ugh. So as you're talking about everything feels unsafe, who can I trust? I look at the persistent distorted cognitions about the cause or consequence of the traumatic event that lead to the individual blaming him or herself or others. 

[00:17:37]
Erin: hmm. 

[00:17:38]
Cinnamon: if I tell you it's my fault, one, I maintain control, And two, I'm already putting myself on the ground. You can't come along and sucker punch me and tell me it's my fault. And I didn't expect it. But if you've ever been laying on the ground and gotten kicked, it doesn't feel better than if you get kicked while you're standing. In fact, it kind of feels worse.

[00:18:03]
Erin: Yeah. 

[00:18:05]
Cinnamon: So, what we're seeing is like this, all this negative, The thoughts are negative, the feelings that are generated are negative. And it all comes back down to... If I feel like shit, you can't make me feel like shit,

[00:18:18]
Erin: Mm hmm. Yeah, that's true. Well, it's like, a police officer who maybe gets into some kind of shooting while they're on duty. It rocked them, right? It rocked them to the core. And so now all of a sudden they have this belief that they are incapable and unable to do their job and maybe even doubting their own competency, like maybe even questioning their ability to handle dangerous situations. And so it's kind of like that whole, if I, and I'm not saying that this is a logical thing, like they choose to think all these things, but it still has that. because now I'm already down. And so now, maybe the consequence will be less, or whatever, the chief says to me won't be as harsh or feel as painful, because I'm already saying, like, I don't know that I'm capable of handling these situations anymore. Like, I'm already doubting myself. 

[00:19:05]
Cinnamon: So you're tying right back to those intrusive thoughts in the criterion B where you're not necessarily inviting that feeling or thought. You're not even thinking it on your own. It's an intrusive thought where it just like showed up uninvited. 

[00:19:22]
Erin: Yeah. 

[00:19:23]
Cinnamon: So then you kind of roll into that persistent and exaggerated negative beliefs about yourself, others, the world. I use the phrase Narcan fatigue a lot. And when I use this as an example in a training, one of the things I say is, tell me how you feel about people that struggle with drug addiction. 

[00:19:43]
Erin: Mm hmm. 

[00:19:44]
Cinnamon: And the way I say it is not usually how they talk about it, right? I am person centered. But that idea of, what is a good run, what is a justified run, what is a waste of their time, and it's not necessarily just one person, it's part of the culture.

I think a lot of times and it's passed down generationally, in the service. So, when that's not questioned, and I hear my mentor saying it, then I adopt that as an okay thing. And so, yeah, like, I've heard so many times, if they keep trying to kill themselves, why do I have to keep trying to save them?

[00:20:25] Erin: Yeah. 

[00:20:26] Cinnamon: And I'm like, they're not trying to kill themselves. Like that is not a conscious attempt. I mean, sure. Sometimes. Absolutely. 

[00:20:34] Erin: Mm hmm.

[00:20:35] Cinnamon: they're just trying to get high. 

[00:20:36] Erin: Or they're trying not to feel, bad. 

[00:20:38] Cinnamon: they're trying to not feel miserable. Yeah. 

[00:20:40] Erin: Right. Yeah. 

[00:20:42]
Cinnamon: So it all ties together, which is how ironic, how ironic that the people that are struggling with addiction are trying to not feel bad. it's very comparable what we're talking with post traumatic stress and our first responders.

[00:20:57]
Erin: Yeah, because the second symptom is, that persistent negative emotional state that manifests as fear, horror, anger, guilt, shame, like a general sense of numbness, which we hear about a lot. Like, I feel numb. I don't feel good. I don't feel bad. I feel nothing. I have this loving family and I can't feel anything towards my wife or my kids. that inability to Even shake off that feeling of just disconnect because of all the anger and shame and guilt that's coming up again, logical, right? It's like, Oh, like I should know better. Like shouldn't be the way I feel, but yet here we are. 

[00:21:37]
Cinnamon: and even going back to you can't selectively numb. If you numb the bad, you're inevitably going to numb the good. And when we're going through a period like that, when we get rid of the bad, we are delusional in thinking that that means we're feeling good. But all it is, is the absence of bad. It's not the presence of good.

[00:22:00]
Erin: one of the things that I've seen happen and I hear about a lot is a family is really struggling with the idea of frequent deployments for their military loved ones. And I've watched relationships really struggle because it's like you're home. Be home. Why do you want to go so fast?

[00:22:21]
Cinnamon: And I've seen spouses not be honest. about whether it was a mandated or a volunteer deployment. And I think that there really is this desire to be home with my family. And that's where their heart is. But it is so uncomfortable to make that transition back whether it's a combat deployment, or just being in that culture and seeing the things and knowing what's happening. So despite being back home and surrounded by their loved ones, they're still struggling to feel happiness and joy. And the weight of their experiences is created like this barrier that prevents them from feeling those positive emotions. it's like, becomes physically uncomfortable, and even though it's putting their lives back on the line and disconnecting again from their family for long periods of time, they feel, more, quote, at home in the combat theater because it aligns with their nervous system. And after, we just had 4th of July. 

[00:23:22]
Erin: Yeah. I mean, on top of that, is there also that guilt? Um, and I'm home, I should be happy. and I can't feel love towards my people and so it's easier just to leave because then I don't have to live with disappointing my wife or my kids 

[00:23:38]
Cinnamon: Absolutely. And even what you said about, the thoughts when they're intrusive, that exaggerated blame. I can't imagine coming back as only one or a few of the members of my unit. like, folks wonder all the time, like, why me? Why, why did I make it out and they didn't?  It can also roll into blame, like, what did I do? What didn't they do? Right? Because that's a way to make sense of it. And, I can imagine family members are like, dude, you made it back, like, don't waste your time. You know, don't, dishonor the people who don't get to live this life by laying up on the sofa or, God forbid, you know, harming yourself.

[00:24:24]
Erin: Right. 

[00:24:25]
Cinnamon: And that makes it sound so simple and so easy. Or, We've heard other people say it was easier to blame the person that got hurt, got injured, perhaps died, because that generates, Anger, And then anger is an aggressive outward. It isn't vulnerable inward, and it can feel safer.

[00:24:49]
Erin: Mm hmm.

[00:24:50]
Cinnamon: Especially when we're in a culture where anger is the most acceptable emotion.

[00:24:56] Erin: Yeah. 

[00:24:57]
Cinnamon: We don't talk about our feelings unless we're talking about anger. And then we'll talk about anger all day.

[00:25:01]
Erin: Yeah. Somebody said today, I'm like, well, I'm going to ask you a bunch of questions about feelings. And he's like, you mean the one feeling, you know, and I don't know if he was referring to anger or not. It made me laugh. Cause, and I know he was just kind of being silly, but yeah, but that is one.

[00:25:17]
Cinnamon: Or he only has one. feeling. 

[00:25:19]
Erin: And maybe it is anger, although I didn't experience that, but along the lines of, what you were just saying, So now you're, almost like completely estranged from others, which is where that detachment comes in and 

[00:25:34]
Cinnamon: Because nobody understands. 

[00:25:35]
Erin: nobody understands. And I don't even know, and we talked about this, however many episodes ago about Does the first responder, does the individual even understand, who they are anymore and there's that loss of, their own self identity of the person that they once were, which can then contribute to more isolation. 

[00:25:53]
Cinnamon: That's the tricky thing about this is that whatever we theorize we're going to find somebody that fits the bill it really is up to you or not you Aaron, but you the listener to hear the variations of how this can show up and See if you feel any connection to it. The other thing, I, I, when I first started doing this, I wrote a podcast called, The Fourth Alarm, The Wife, and

[00:26:21] Erin: blog?

[00:26:22] Cinnamon: a blog, sorry, blog, And I've seen that a lot, where people are like, I don't want to be here, but my spouse told me I needed to come. And 

[00:26:31]
Erin: Mm hmm. Mm

[00:26:32]
Cinnamon: when we have lost perspective, we need somebody outside of us. to tell us what they're observing and we can either dismiss it or we can say, I trust you, I don't see it, but I trust you.

 But instead we usually think they're blaming us for stuff, they're crazy, they don't know what they're talking about, I absolutely disagree, but this is why we talk about this particular criteria as being a tricky one. 

[00:27:02]
Erin: hmm. 

[00:27:03]
Cinnamon: Because it's not as straightforward as nightmares, flashbacks, the things that we see in the movies.and why I've watched so many friendships. They're like, oh yeah, we were friends when we first started and now we can't stand each other. Or they're a completely different person and I don't like them anymore. and my god, the divorce rate, right? So we're watching. People not recognize this group of symptoms for what they are and they just think that this person has evolved into an asshole.

[00:27:36]
Erin: Yeah. Right. 

[00:27:38]
Cinnamon: And, you know, I'm like, if this isn't the person that you married, then there's a good chance, or the person that you started out with, we're speaking in very heteronormative terms, but, then, you get to see that they are probably not acting like themselves and something's wrong, and there's something to be addressed, and hey, if a relationship splits up after some things get straightened out and it's still not gonna work, touche, like, it is what it is, but I just wonder if we had been talking about mental health a long time ago for first responders, first responders, Would we still have such high divorce rates if we didn't have the stigma around getting help from other people rather than only being willing to help ourselves? Would we have so many marriages ending, so many relationships ending in this particular community?

[00:28:29]
Erin: It's hard to say, but that's why the vision is to get both sides of the relationship educated in some capacity or the other. it might be this loss of interest in your relationships like diminished interest in things that were once important to you, But it could be even more than just your relationships that you've lost interest in or that you feel like has changed. Because one of the symptoms is diminished interest. we often ask people have you lost interest in things that you used to enjoy? Or do you no longer want to do those things that once brought you joy Yes, it could be the relationships, but it could also be like a sports or, even just day to day things that you found fulfilling, like, cleaning your house, living in a clean space, that kind of thing, that all of a sudden you just have, 

[00:29:14]
Cinnamon: Working in your woodshop. 

[00:29:16]
Erin: yeah, working in your woodshop, working in your garden, whatever it is but there's diminished feelings around a lot of other things. Where it's like, I just don't care anymore.

[00:29:25]
Cinnamon: and it's also a balance between not feeling. And feeling so vulnerable to the point of discomfort that they have to separate themselves as like a self protection tactic. That they're finding it hard to open up or to trust others because of that heightened sense of vulnerability and that fear of emotional pain. So they shut down, they close off, I was talking to somebody today about The first needle when they put the lidocaine in or the numbing agent and that, that hurts. And then we assume the next needle is going to hurt as bad. What we're not logically thinking about is the fact that the first one just numbed it So probably you're not going to feel the second one, but after you felt that initial pain, you're like hell no I am absolutely not letting you get another needle like this is why I have this nasty scar on my chin 

[00:30:23] Erin: Yeah. 

[00:30:24]
Cinnamon: It's because I was like y'all are crazy If you think i'm gonna let you stitch me up after what you just did to me.

I was five But when you have that heightened sense of vulnerability When you're afraid of being hurt The safest thing is to back up and back away and really, 

in this situation, one of the better things to do most of the time is to actually lean in because the people that care about you are not trying to hurt you, they're trying to help you and it's just that fear and that exposed nerve, like, you know, exposed skin that is making it feel

[00:30:58] Erin: Yeah.

[00:30:59] Cinnamon: so potentially painful,

[00:31:00]
Erin: Well, yeah, we hear this too about our first responders or our medics that are going on these runs on children that have drowned in their baby pool or whatnot. And because you're a parent, it can open up this whole situation where you go home and you're so terrified that something's going to happen to your child based on what happened to this child that you actually end up retreating. Because it feels so raw and vulnerable that you don't want to risk even getting, putting yourself in that position to be hurt or something to happen to your child that might take you out completely. 

[00:31:33]
Cinnamon: but if you come home and I'm getting the baby pool out for our toddler and you are like absolutely not, we are not putting the baby in a baby pool. And I'm like, you're being unreasonable, Like, it's fine. I'll be with the baby. 

[00:31:47]
Erin: hmm. 

[00:31:48]
Cinnamon: They won't be, left unattended. It'll be fine. this goes back to when I say we don't see first responders play the odds. We see them play the tragedy. And what that looks like is unreasonableness. If that's, is unreasonableness a word or did I just like add a new word to the English dictionary?

[00:32:07]
Erin: I am not the one to ask, sister. We're gonna say it is. 

[00:32:11]
Cinnamon: So you're trying to talk to somebody about it's a hot July day Let's let our baby play in the pool I'll be right here to observe and to parent and it becomes an argument with somebody who sounds unreasonable, but if you saw what they saw, if you've heard mom scream and cry about how they just took a minute to look away and now their lives are forever changed. It just feels like why even take the risk?

[00:32:43]
Erin: Yeah. and why even take the risk with your heart, you know, 

[00:32:47]
Cinnamon: So how do you balance that out? if I come to a therapist for help with this, what will I get? What happens?

[00:32:56]
Erin: I mean, any number of things can happen. I feel like that's a very open ended question 

[00:33:00]
Cinnamon: so what if I told you though, like, talking to a therapist isn't going to undo what happened? if at the end of an hour session baby is still gonna be dead, why is this helping me?

[00:33:12]
Erin: well, because therapy can help you actually process through the actual emotions and sensations and the things that are continuing to keep the trauma alive in your body. I mean, there's tons of modalities that can help with. All of that yes, it was not going to bring.That child back, but also there is a way to not have to live with that for the rest of your life

[00:33:33]
Cinnamon: what I think our folks need to hear is you're not saying that we're going to change what happened. we're working with you to change your relationship with what happened and how you feel and think about what happened is not finite and the end of how you can feel, Like you can't change the thing, but you can change how you feel and how you think about it. So That's what I hear you saying when you're like, yeah, you get to process and put words on but give language to those thoughts and feelings and then Somebody gets to help you unravel them. So You have another opinion of how to look at it than just your own

[00:34:18]
Erin: Yeah,

[00:34:19]
Cinnamon: Wow, that sounds like therapy is a great idea 

[00:34:21] Erin: Therapy is an awesome idea. So the moral of the story is, when it comes to Criterion D...

[00:34:28] Cinnamon: it's sneaky.

[00:34:30] Erin: it is sneaky, 

[00:34:32] Cinnamon: It's sneaky, and oftentimes you might need someone else to help you see this particular set of symptoms. And so, don't necessarily completely dismiss. Feedback when you get it, and also know that it makes perfect sense because we're still trying to protect ourselves from a threat. 

[00:34:54] Erin: Yeah. 

[00:34:54]
Cinnamon: And by keeping your eye on the threat, which is all the bad things, it feels safer and less vulnerable. So even though it makes sense, that doesn't mean it has to stay that way. But we have to acknowledge that that's where it's gotten to, so we can turn it around.

[00:35:10] Erin: There you have it. 

[00:35:11] Cinnamon: So, I'll just say this, Miss Erin. we have one big criteria left for post traumatic stress. And then we just go to, like, the little ones that will kind of tie in maybe next episode. So, I'm curious. once we finish going through the post traumatic stress stuff, I would love to hear like, get an email or, you know, some kind of contact from our listeners We have a plan, but we are always open to changing plans if there's something that you all want to hear. 

We definitely have heard from lots of you, and we've got a list of things that we want to introduce. we get a lot of like, can you talk about this? And can you talk about that? And like, yes. That's of course we want to talk about what you want to hear. but I would like to know we would like to know if this has been helpful if this is, Made it make a little bit more sense.

And like I said, we have one big chunk of symptoms to still go through but we'd love to hear from you and hear if this is opened up some communication maybe because we want to make sure that, I mean, Aaron and I can hang out and shoot the shit anytime we want to make sure that what we're providing in the podcast is something that's usable, helpful, informative, maybe mind changing, eye opening and that, you know, it's kind of like, Oh, that makes sense. that makes sense. And whether it's for you, or a loved one, or a co worker that is on your ever last nerve, to just be able to feel like you can understand people a little bit better, including yourself.

[00:36:52]
Erin: And I can be specific on how you can contact us, because, This is what I'm doing behind the scenes. You can find us on Facebook. You can find us on TikTok. You can find us on Instagram. You can email info at afterthetonesdrop. com. You can go to our contact page at, afterthetonesdrop.com. You can call the caller hotline. Anything to connect with us to let us, 

[00:37:17]
Cinnamon: What about YouTube? 

[00:37:19]
Erin: Oh yeah, Oh, we do have YouTube now, the YouTubes. so if you haven't checked that out, we do have shorts on our YouTube channel now that has our podcasts and you can actually see our face if you feel like it. No pressure. but yeah, we're working on it. 

[00:37:37]
Cinnamon: Some days are better than others. Some faces are better than others 

[00:37:40]
Erin: days are better than others. So yeah, I piggyback in second what Cinnamon says. We want to do this for you, so please let us know what you want to hear us talk about. 

[00:37:49]
Cinnamon: And if you don't, we will just start making shit up, 

[00:37:52]
Erin: which we're good at, 

[00:37:54]
Cinnamon: and we might start talking about, like, Laura Ingalls Wilder and her journey across. the western plains and prairies. Nobody wants that.