Lucky Number Six: With Keith Hanks

EP78: Lucky Number Six

Cinnamon: [00:00:00] It's the first responder, the first to get the call, the first on scene, greeted by God knows what, pushed beyond the limits that they don't even set. Then what happens? You're listening to After the Tones Drop. We're your hosts. I'm Cinnamon, a first responder trauma therapist. 

Erin: And I'm Erin, I'm a First Responder Integration Coach.

Cinnamon: Our show brings you stories from real first responders, the tools they've learned, the changes they've made, and the lives they now get to live.

Erin: A quick heads up before we start. We want to acknowledge that some of the content we discuss on our show can be triggering for some listeners. Some of our episodes may touch upon themes like traumatic [00:01:00] experiences, PTSD, suicide, and line of duty deaths. For We understand that these topics are sensitive and might evoke difficult emotions.

If you are currently struggling with your mental health or have experienced traumatic events recently, listen with caution. Now, if you're ready to proceed, let's begin.

Hey, listener, welcome back to After the Tone Strop podcast. The podcast where we dive deep into the real mental health challenges our first responder community faces, and most importantly, how we can overcome them together. And today we have a long awaited conversation that we've been eager to bring to you.

Today's guest is none other than Keith Hanks, a retired firefighter and EMT with over 21 years of service under his belt. Keith's story is one of true resilience, from childhood trauma to the heartbreaking loss of his first wife, to facing the heavy toll of working the frontlines for so many years.

Keith was eventually diagnosed with complex [00:02:00] PTSD. But here's the thing. He didn't let that define or destroy him. Instead, he's made it his mission to break the stigma around mental health, addiction, and suicide in our first responder community. We've been looking forward to this chat with Keith for a while.

We were supposed to have him back in January, but well, life had other plans. So. Today is especially exciting as we finally get to sit down with him and talk about his work as an international speaker, the release of his new book, Allen, and his incredible organization, Traumatic Strength, which is helping first responders everywhere realize it's okay to ask for help.

Before we get into Keith's powerful story, we want to remind you to subscribe and share this podcast with others who need to hear these conversations. Mental health is everyone's business and we want these episodes to reach every responder who's struggling in silence. So hit that subscribe button and share after the tones drop with your friends, [00:03:00] family, and colleagues.

And hey, while we're talking about important resources, we also want to plug our new Copper Warrior program. It's a 12 week intensive mental health and mindset coaching program for first responders, built for those who are ready to reclaim their power and thrive, not just survive. So if you or someone you know transformative program, check that out at copperwarrior.

com. All right, let's dive in. Keith, we are so glad to finally have you on After the Tones Drop. Hello. Hi, Keith. 

Keith: Ladies. 

Erin: Did you get our email about our technical difficulties? 

Keith: I did. I responded. It 

Erin: was like, come hell or high water, we're getting this man on the show. I mean, we have. We have. We have. I was looking at our, um, information from the last time you were supposed to be on.

That was back in January. So now here we are, almost October, finally making it happen. So I appreciate your patience with [00:04:00] us. Oh, 

Keith: thanks on your end too. I mean, it's been, I think it's been a year for everyone. 

Cinnamon: Well, and it kind of worked out because didn't you, since our last, the last intention to record, Your book got published, correct?

Keith: Yes, ma'am. 

Cinnamon: Oh, so even more to talk about. That's 

Keith: right. Yeah, it was fall for the best, right? 

Cinnamon: Absolutely. No accidents, no coincidences. 

Keith: That's right. Everything happens for a reason. 

Erin: So we're really excited to have you today. I have been doing a little bit of research. I really tried to check out the book.

Prior to our interview today, but you don't have it on Audible yet. And I'm like, that is the, is the game changer, but it sounds like it's doing really excellent. 

Keith: Uh, it seems to be, I mean, it's, uh, you know, for a self published book, it's definitely, I would say it's above average right now, given it's only been out for just under four months.

Erin: Yeah. 

Keith: I'm pretty happy with it. You know, I, it was, it was tough at first cause. You know, I wanted it [00:05:00] to, obviously we all, when we do something, we want it to go big, right? Yeah. And I kind of lost touch with what the whole point was. It was to publish a book. And so I've done that. Yeah. And it's done pretty well.

It's gotten some reach. So, uh, I'm happy with it so far. 

Erin: Well, I imagine that your intentions were a little bit bigger than just publishing a book. 

Keith: Hmm. They were. 

Erin: What were your, were your intentions outside of saying, Hey, I published a book cause that's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. 

Keith: You know, honestly, one of the biggest things I went through in my journey was always feeling like no one got it, you know, like no one, how can anyone understand this collection of shit that I had been through the big hope beyond just being like, Hey, I published a book was, Hey, you're not alone.

Here's some really raw, unfiltered proof of that. And so I have got a lot of feedback from a lot of people from across, you know, both first responders and, and non first responders who have been like, you know, holy shit, you know, I thought I was the only one who has been through this kind of messed up life and, and you've pointed out [00:06:00] that's not true. So it's worked out in that way too. 

Erin: Yeah. What kind of feedback have you gotten from the non first responder world where people that were non first responders shocked at the things that you had been keeping to yourself? Yeah. 

Keith: Yeah. So, you know, basically the, it takes four chapters to get to, before I even get on the job, you know, my childhood is, is pretty hard for a lot of people to hear.

Um, it was even harder to live through. Um, and some of the most powerful feedback I've gotten, I've been through people who have been like, you know, I've always looked at you as this big first responder, all your stuff has got to be because of the things you saw on the job. And people have been like, I haven't been able to connect with you through my childhood.

You know, I've been through some really bad stuff as a kid, and you have too, and I don't know how to put it in the words, and you did. That's really been humbling. Because when you write something, when you write a book, I'm not, I wasn't until recently, I wasn't a big writer or reader and to be able to put into words, something that other [00:07:00] people can actually grasp and to have them tell you that when you never been really that person until recently, it's, it's been, it's been kind of cool.

It's been actually very cool. And that's really been the feedback that I've really held close to my heart. 

Cinnamon: I have a quote on my bulletin board here in my office, and it's by Brene Brown. And she says, the two most powerful words in the English language are me too. And you know, one of the, the challenges with empathy.

It's really sitting somebody else's shoes and feeling how infrequently we sit there and we're like, what would that actually feel like? Right? Like we can hear something and know, wow, that's a bad thing. But to sit with the weight of that, we, we don't like discomfort, so we don't do that very often. And so sometimes the most powerful thing that we can do is connect with the people who have sat in their own shoes.

And feel like they haven't found a way to [00:08:00] communicate their story or what you're saying. So yes, it's a secondary thing for people to be like, Oh, wow, like somebody went through that. That must have been bad. But I think in this particular culture, having somebody find the words when you haven't been able to for your own experience is.

probably more powerful than making other people who haven't been through it aware that it's happening or it's happened or that this is a pretty damn common thing. 

Keith: I think we lose touch with the fact that as humans, we all have suffering and it's all relevant to who you are. I mean, what's, what's, you know, astronomical to me may be unbearable to someone else, or maybe You know, barely a blip on the radar to someone else.

You know what I mean? But we all have suffering and that was one of the points, you know, we're writing this and for others to read was we all have our journey. We all have been through some sort of [00:09:00] trauma, you know, we all have something we can connect on. And I, and. One of the hopes was always to get people to be like, okay, so maybe I haven't been a first responder, but I've been a kid and I've been through stuff every, I think everyone who's been a kid when they were a child went through something, some sort of adversity and, and maybe that's just it, maybe just being able to connect with, with that part of the suffering is, is what can bring us all back to our, our roots as, as a species.

Erin: Yeah, absolutely. Cinnamon and I talk about this often about how we can look at a chronological timeline of our lives now and see how every life experience that we have had has led us to exactly where we are today with obviously with therapy and talking and. We're both in recovery, 12 step, 12 steps.

We've been able to unpack that and heal from it, but it's taken a lifetime to build it. And now it's going to take a lifetime [00:10:00] to build something new, not to, you know, erase it because now there's so many things we can look at and say, man, thank God it happened like that. Like it sucked at the time, but because of it happening that way.

We're able to bring a different level of understanding to folks in the world. And first of all, I got to say, I was listening to your episode with Conrad, which we love Conrad who doesn't 

Cinnamon: good people. 

Erin: And. And every time you would speak about something, you really did highlight this childhood adversity, which if you've ever listened to our show, we talk a lot.

We say childhood trauma is cinnamon's jam, which sounds sick. We don't mean it that way, but that is something that we really capitalize on in the sense of helping people understand, especially first responders. Why they end up picking this job, um, how they end up becoming the person that's the helper fixer because they tend to want to be that [00:11:00] calm in the storm for other people that they didn't have.

And you did touch on that with Conrad. So did you always have this inkling like, okay, I want to be a first responder. I want to be this person that helps folks. Like, did you grow up in a family of first responders? How did this happen that you came to find this work? And advocacy has just kind of become who you are as an individual first as a responder and now as a speaker, as an author, all the things that you're doing.

How did that start for you? 

Keith: So it's always, it's always a fun story to tell cause you know, it's. Most people like to think that a lot of little boys are like, I'm going to be a fireman or a cop when I grow up. And there was, there was there, uh, but I grew up in a very firefighting and military family, uh, military, more on my dad's side and military and fire on my mother's side, going back like 1800s kind of stuff.

And, um, I was inundated with it and I had, I grew up primarily with my mother's family and I had two of her brothers who were actively on the fire department growing up when I was growing up. [00:12:00] And it wasn't that, it wasn't that I didn't want to do it, but I always kind of wanted to go, I wanted to go to cooking school.

I wanted to go to Johnson and Wales and become a chef. And I knew I wasn't going to have a choice. I always joked that I was party trained at gunpoint because it was that sort of upbringing. So I knew when I was a senior in high school that I was going to get on the fire department and I went through all my training when I was 17 and I was sworn in as a on call member two days after my 18th birthday and it was just sort of expected.

I, I didn't question it and it wasn't that I didn't want to do it because I knew what I could do doing the job. I know what I could do for other people. I wasn't arrogant to it. I wasn't ignorant to it. I wasn't blind to it. I would grew up watching my entire family do it. And so I knew there was going to be an opportunity for me to maybe save someone, you know, you know, cliche save someone.

And there was a lot of that when I [00:13:00] got on and I was young and I was dumb. I was a little, a little arrogant at first, but, um, The job has a way of humbling you and it definitely did that over time. 

Erin: Yeah. 

Keith: You know, but I, I went to the job with a, with a lot of baggage too. So. 

Erin: Well, welcome to being a firefighter.

Keith: Cheers. 

Erin: Yeah, 

Cinnamon: like Aaron said, I spent the last year traveling the country talking about childhood adversity and it was so interesting and we've had so many guests that speak to it. But we, we, I typically get three responses, people connect to it and have like that breakthrough and they're like, okay, I'll tell the truth, you know, or, or I'll acknowledge what things are called when I haven't called them those things before, yeah.

Resistance of. You know, like, I'm fine. And I [00:14:00] look at, you know, that whole, like, look at me. I turned out fine. And I'm like, have 

Keith: you? 

Cinnamon: And then like, did you 

Keith: really? Yeah. 

Cinnamon: Oh, you have the, the ones that are like just deer in the headlights. They're not quite sure which way to move yet. So you've got the people that you know are going to be a red light.

You've got your people that are like having a green light moment. And then you have the people that are terrified move. And so we have yet to have a guest come on that speaks into anything that happened in childhood where they've said, you know, childhood adversity, like, I mean, I had it, but it hasn't played a part in anything that has happened to me as an adult.

And I'm like, if you still know your ABCs, like can sing that song, guess what? 

Keith: Trauma 

Cinnamon: came with you too. 

Keith: Amen to that. 

Erin: Yeah. Yeah. So you were brought up in a family of firefighters, first responders, all fire, right? Yep. Is that what you said? [00:15:00] No cuffs. So, so like back when they were like using buckets and horses.

Keith: Literally. 

Erin: But then you, so you kind of like got invited in without your consent, um, necessarily. Yeah, then you had 21 years of service with the fire service. And then it was almost like not by your choosing that this career ended for you. So after these 21 years of service, what do you feel like was the hardest part about walking away from that job that I imagine you had some love for in some capacity, especially because it was part of your like blood, quite literally, um, what was the hardest part for you walking away?

Keith: Uh, the rush, honestly, I think we all become junkies as first responders and, um, yeah, it was, I didn't, I didn't have that. You know, I wasn't pricking a vein anymore. And that was, it took me years to shed [00:16:00] that. I mean, everyone's like, Oh, I miss the camaraderie. I miss my crews. I miss my, my, my partner, whatever it is.

Uh, and I, and that's true. I did. I miss, I miss being around the station. I miss being on, on tour and whatever. Uh, I was. The other shoe wasn't always dropping, but I was making a drop. And honestly, when I left the job, my symptoms had gotten pretty bad. I had gotten diagnosed two years before I left the job with PT with complex PTSD and, um, they were pretty bad and we were handling and we were going down the healing journey.

But when I left the job, it was like I hit a brick wall. It was like, okay, so. I was doing 80 hours a week. I was working two jobs, working inner city EMS. I was doing, you know, 16 to 20 calls in 24 hours. I was running and gunning, you know, and living off the adrenaline. And now I'm essentially a, you know, a stay at home husband, eventually a stay at home dad.

You know, I got slippers next to the bed and I'm doing puzzles and it's like, where's the danger? Where's the [00:17:00] death? Where's, where's the, where's the fear? Where's the, you know, every, where is this? And I ended up getting really bad. I spiraled really bad after the job because it wasn't there. I wasn't getting, you know, I wasn't getting my shot of dope, my fire dope.

I wasn't getting it anymore. And it was bad, bad. And, um, shortly after I got off the job, uh, we, we had a very dark time in my family because of it, you know, 

Cinnamon: how can you talk a little bit about dark side? 

Keith: Absolutely. Um, I have two children from my first marriage that are adults and, uh, they're not currently in my life.

And so. My second wife, we weren't supposed to, she wasn't supposed to get pregnant. Uh, she has an autoimmune disease and, uh, but we wanted to have a kid. And so 2018 came, we had been married, uh, at that point, four years, and she really wanted to have a child. And, uh, we went through all the steps. The doctor's like, okay, yeah, we'll just need to keep an eye on you.

So we got pregnant and come 2019. So now I'm [00:18:00] almost about a year and a half off the job. And, um, The pregnancy doesn't go as planned. Um, my wife, uh, died in a car accident. We get to the point where the pregnancy is not going good with my second wife. And we ended up having an imminent birth where she almost dies.

We almost with the baby. And so without us knowing it or paying attention to it, cause we're concerned about mom and baby, I go backwards. And now I don't have the job because I had the job when my first wife died. I don't have the job. I darker than I probably had been in a long time. Having a suicide attempt that December, right before Christmas, actually the weekend, the about three days before he got my daughter baptized.

Um, I tried to, uh, I used a handgun, tried to shoot myself and it ended up being this sort of wake up call. It's like, Hey, we're not dealing with something at that point. I hadn't really come out with a lot of the childhood stuff. I haven't, like I had admitted that [00:19:00] some stuff had happened, but I hadn't dealt with it.

And I realized that at that point, the December of 2019, when I had that, what I deemed my last attempt, I had had five prior suicide attempts. And I had realized when I was in the hospital after this last one, I realized that none of them had anything to do with the job. None of them, none of them were from the calls I did.

None of them was from, Oh, I TV and now I'm sad and I want to hurt myself. No, it was from the guilt and shame I had carried from childhood, from what had been done to me as a kid, that the job was a catalyst in bringing out of me. It wasn't the job itself. And that was really the turning point. It had to happen.

We spoke about this earlier. It had to happen. These things had to happen. Thank God I'm still alive. But it was a turning point. Eventually, eventually, it took a while because I pulled right away as I would have liked to have been. 

Cinnamon: So would you say then that like, and correct me if I'm mishearing you, but I just got [00:20:00] really excited listening to you.

I got some goosebumps. Because I think that this is maybe an obvious point that we just haven't articulated. It's not the vicarious trauma, right? Like it's not watching somebody else go through it. It's watching whether it be the feeling of the guilt and shame, or it's the actual event that you're watching somebody else go through, right?

Like you respond to home where there's child abuse. It's not that you're experiencing that vicarious trauma from something that you're watching and you're like, Oh, that's really sad for that kid. It's, I can't ignore that it happened to me anymore because it is coming into my face. Like we're waiting for these shoes to drop, but we're, it's actually isn't a shoe that we need to be looking for.

And that to [00:21:00] me is something that. Maybe that's the, that's the thing that we haven't really put a label on. It's not that I'm watching these poor people go through these experiences, and you know, that's what we call vicarious trauma in like the therapy world, right? But you're actually just simply getting triggered Because you are going into these homes, going into these communities and seeing your own childhood adversity replay itself over and over and over.

And if it isn't the specificity of that, right, whether it's sexual abuse or physical abuse or like neglect, whatever, it's still that guilt and shame that is getting triggered when it may not be an identical situation. It's But it's still something that a child shouldn't have to experience or feel responsible for.

Keith: One of the, one of the things I always talk about when I present is, is I say to people, how many here have witnessed a murder in their family? Because we do [00:22:00] murders, we do, we do homicides as first responders. How many people have actually had that happen in their life? Most of us haven't. I've never had anyone in my family kill another family member.

Why does that affect this so much? I'm going to lay out a scenario that I, that I always say to people. And as I'm going to try to generalize it as much as you can, and this is going to sort of depict why so many of us pick up on the personal side of this job, you get sent for an unresponsive mail at someone's house.

It doesn't matter if you're a cop or a firefighter or whatever, we're going to play the part of like fire or EMS right now. You get to this neighborhood where it's all single family homes, you're met at the door by a mother. She's obviously a mother. She looks like a mother. She's wearing an apron, and she's panicked.

She says, My husband's on the ground. He clutched his chest and fell to the ground. Very nice family looking home. A lot of love. You can feel it when you walk in. You walk in the front door, and all you see is family pictures on the wall. You see trophies on the mantel in the fireplace. There's a pile of Legos in front of a TV.

Obviously, the kids left before they went to school. There's a smell of something cooking [00:23:00] in the house. Like cookies or bread, she falls against the floor. As you go down and start working and doing CPR on her husband, you got there before maybe the fire department did. And as you're sitting there doing CPR on this person, you hear a diesel, some sort of pull up, you hear air brakes, and you assume it's the fire department until you hear laughter and kids voices, and you realize it's a school bus and the kids are getting off the bus and the woman who is now laying against the wall with an apron on turns gray.

Because she looks at the front door and all those pictures of the kids that you see on the wall are now standing in the doorway. It's not, it's not the husband being dead. He's dead. His problems are over. It's not that. And a lot of people harp, I kindled grandma, I, I did CPR on a dead baby, I did this, this, and, and it's not that situation necessarily all the time, it's what we can gravitate towards as person that we all live through, [00:24:00] and that is a real scenario that I went through.

And I immediately left the firehouse after that call and went home and hugged my kids because that's all I can think about. And so many of us on the job, that's what gets us. And we don't realize it because we're not allowed to acknowledge that part because that's not the macho part. Looking at pictures on someone's wall, cookies cooking in someone's house.

That's not macho, but that's what's doing it a lot of the time. That's the part that gets to us and breaks us. 

Cinnamon: You know, when you say you see these kids, Aaron and I did an exercise where we bought shoes, Children's shoes of different sizes to help folks know when we reflect and recall, we do it from an adult mind, right?

So we wanted. To be able to create that scenario where you're looking at these shoes and this is what size your feet have to be when you're this little. So I would imagine you add into [00:25:00] that. Now you're looking at these pictures, you're looking at these kids faces and it's a reality check. Of how teeny tiny you are when you're 10.

And when we reflect back on the things that we've been through, we don't think of ourselves as that teeny tiny kid. We think of ourselves as the adult and what we could have done and should have done. But if you look at a child standing in the doorway, you're like, of course, It went the way that it went and they didn't do something different.

They're babies, but when it's us, we don't give ourselves as much grace. 

Keith: One of the, um, I had a, I had a one day and I've done this only in the last year and a half of, of new therapy that I've been going through is embracing and saying the word helpless and specifically for men, but men and women and specifically in the first responder military world, we are about to be helpless.

We help the [00:26:00] helpless, but when you're a kid, you're helpless. You can be, you, you end up sometimes being helpless. And when it comes to any sort of adversity or, or, or abuse, you are helpless. And that is a tough thing to embrace and own that you went through what you did because you were helpless. No one helped you.

If you take that, that no one helped you. And then you look at all these first responders out there helping others. There's a connection there. And a lot of it. When it comes to, I think specifically the suicide epidemic going on right now, that we don't know what the true numbers are. I think a lot of this comes down to people, men and women not being able to own that at one point they were helpless because we control the things we, when, when things are going sideways, We're controlling them.

We're no longer quote unquote helpless. So why would we be able to admit that at one point we were? And that's what we need to go back [00:27:00] to and figure out and be able to do. 

Erin: Yeah. I'm finding myself in this, it's kind of like this weird balance of sorrow and excitement listening to you speak. It's like the things that you're saying definitely hit me like right in the heart.

And on the other hand, the excitement is coming from the fact that You are the one saying all these things, you, the responder, uh, not us saying it. And every time we have one of our guests on and they start talking in the way that you're talking, I'm like, this, this gives me hope because that is the point because it's one thing for us to like spout off all the crap that we know, like that we have learned by working with you all that we've learned through some books, whatnot.

But to hear you have these. moments of, yeah, it's from this. I'm clear that I drug this into my career from this. To hear it from your mouth makes such a big difference. And so [00:28:00] I'm wondering, I mean, maybe you just like had this intuitive, like, aha moment and all of this came to the surface and you figured it out, like you had that epiphany.

But how did you figure all of this out? How did you begin to really connect the dots to, to apply all of this into your life and into your recovery and into your advocacy work? 

Keith: Honestly, I had a fall on my face a lot. Thankfully, as you know, I had a fatter face for a long time, so it cushioned the blow. Um, so there's not a lot of bruising.

Um, I had a fall on my face and, but the thing was, I've always been able to get through things. And most of us can't lose upon the journey is, is that we forget that all these things we had been through, we made it through and say, yeah, I had been on this recovery healing journey for a while when I had my last attempt in 2019.

But after that attempt, I spent two months in a, in a hospital. It was, you know, a month. And then it was another month after [00:29:00] coming home for like a day and a half. Uh, so like two months. And I wasn't on a first responder specific unit. I was on general pop, as we'll say, I was with the normies. It wasn't.

Yeah, right. No air quotes. Um, was seeing, honestly, here it is. Uh, I know for everyone's who met this, it was seeing people who were like this, you know, not working, whatever it was, teenagers, young adults, 60 years, going through a lot of the same shit I was just because it's life. And I finally realized that I was like, you know, something.

This is just what I've been through, but I've been through it. I'm not in it anymore, and once I realized that I wasn't in it, I was able to start putting that more into my head, like, Okay, you're not going through it. The important thing to hold on to is, it isn't happening. You're not six years old anymore.

You're not this helpless little kid, you know? [00:30:00] That, you know, mid, of course, right after that happened, the pandemic happened. So you take someone like me who has all this trauma and has a moment of like realization, and then the entire country goes in the world, uh, lockdown, uh, there. But it honestly gave me an opportunity to just like spend time on me and be like, Well, holy shit, I did survive all this and that was when I really started making big strides with changing what I wanted to do with my book because I had already started writing it at that point.

And um, I realized that I had a lot of anger in me because I was angry at what had happened, but I was more angry at myself because I knew, I think I knew somewhere in the back of my head, I knew I could get beyond this, the stigma, the culture, being a guy, myself too. And it was in those first few months.

that I was like, all right, here's what it is. And from there, it was a new, new direction. And I just. Went with it. And, you know, I've had [00:31:00] some ripped up recently and stuff and it happens and I've had to accept the fact that this is a lifelong journey and this isn't about being perfect. There's no holes in my hands.

You know, I can't walk on water and you know, it's, it's been that it's been acknowledging the human part of all this. 

Cinnamon: Thank you so much for your willingness to share like the ugly underbelly bits of this, because I think, you know, We have folks like you on who have come out the other side and even Aaron and I being in recovery like We are still working at it every day.

Like every day is not a good day. And So I want to kind of take advantage of your willingness to show that underbelly And I've got two questions and I'm going to just kind of ask them one at a time because I think this is where people who need to hear this need to hear this. And the first one is, you know, you [00:32:00] mentioned six total attempts and one of them happened after you already started your healing journey.

So, I guess there's a pre question here. Did you really want to die? 

Keith: Not one time. What did you actually I wanted the guilt and shame to go away and the pain that went along with it. I wanted to be able to tell someone. Guilt, shame, and pain. 

Cinnamon: So had you been in a space, in a culture where it was further shamed, but admired or welcomed to tell the truth?

Then your truth, right, regardless of what your truth was, it may not have been through those experiences. You may not have went through those later experiences. The other question I have for you, and I think this flows perfectly like we planned it. What were the stories that you told yourself about yourself?

that created that guilt and shame, [00:33:00] right? Because it wasn't like, screw that motherfucker who touched me. 

Keith: No, 

Cinnamon: that's some bullshit that my dad hit me. Right. You know, it was, we internalize that, which we understand there's a reason we do that, right? It helps keep our world on kilt and it serves a purpose when we are little, but if we don't shift that as an adult, then this is the trouble we run into.

So when you use those words, guilt and shame and pain. What were the stories that you said about yourself that you told yourself that you thought were true that created the, cause you weren't the offender, right? You were the victim. So what did it mean about you to have been victimized by these things that created that narrative that you couldn't get that stuff to stop?

Keith: Uh, so when it came to like everything with my childhood, my abusers were family members. So the first thing I always told myself from childhood was it was my fault. I allowed it to happen. [00:34:00] And then that's sort of manifested into, you know, like the teenage years, maybe early tweens, as they say now, um, 12 to 13 ish.

I started being like. I can't tell anyone because, well, my dad already left when I was five. And if I say something, these people are going to be taken away from me. And with the lack of love that I experienced as a child, the form of quote unquote, love that I was receiving in the form of abuse was almost welcome.

And as terrifying as that is to admit at times, uh, in, from, from perspective to maybe hear. You know, a lot of love and compassion and affection from your family, whatever you're getting, you're going to hold on to. And you don't want that to, you don't want to lose it. You don't want to suffer another loss.

And so you tell yourself over and over again, you have to hold onto this. This is your fault. And if you tell anyone and they go away, that's going to be your fault. You are going to be the bad guy. Hear it all the time. You hear it with, you know, different [00:35:00] stories, you know, with abusers, almost like they, they make a meme out of it where like the abusers looking at the kid, you're like, well, don't tell your mummy because then uncle Bob will go to jail.

That, that's where like the guilt and shame, you know, just God, it is and it manifests and it just grabs hold of your soul and it travels with you as you get older and everything else becomes your fault. Even if it isn't, something could happen that's not even on the same continent as you take blame for because of this guilt and shame from your childhood.

And that is what did it every single time. When I had an attempt, 

Erin: yeah, there's nothing, there's nothing more frustrating than being an adult and having that logic of I know better. I know, know that it wasn't my fault. I know that I wasn't the one that created this, but that little boy or a little girl is still living inside of you saying, remember that time this was all your fault.

And we [00:36:00] use, um, I don't have my little nesting dolls. We use nesting dolls as a way to explain how these experiences of our life remain. No matter how much we get a new shell, no matter how much we age up, and that version of us is still very much alive and ticking and reminding us every single day, don't you say that?

Because you're gonna get, they're gonna leave you, you're not, you know, they're not gonna accept you, but, so I'm saying all this to say like when we are grownups and we know better, We're like, duh, of course, you know, we're watching our children grow up and we know that they're not the culprits of whatever the conflict is.

It's, it's whatever we're doing as the grownups most often. It's like, if I know, why can't I just get over it and move on? 

Cinnamon: Bingo. 

Erin: And that is so, that is where the terror lies because I know better and I've been doing all this work and why the hell am I still feeling [00:37:00] like this? If, if I've done this much and I'm still feeling like this, where's the hope?

How am I ever going to grow or move on? 

Cinnamon: Yeah. 

Erin: So I'm so glad that you touched on that because we say all the time, like, it's not about the logic of it. If it was just logic, none of us would be here, right? Right, right. If we just could, like, we know better, so what? You know? So thanks for letting me say that and Sin, what were you going to say?

Cinnamon: So when we. When we were talking earlier, Keith and you were talking about being helpless and then finding this job where you become the helper of the helpless. In your situation, do you feel like there's also this transition from being the bad kid to being the good kid? Yeah. To the everyday hero in terms of identity, like looking for something that redeems you, [00:38:00] whether it's here in the front of your mind that you're doing it, which that's probably pretty rare, it's back here in the back of your mind saying, okay, I've, I've been the bad kid.

And now people are thanking me for what I do. And so I went from helpless to the helper and I went from being a bad kid to the everyday hero. Would you say those parallel each other? 

Keith: They do. I think there was definitely some of that in the beginning, but I actually think it grew as time went on. Because then all these unresolved symptoms and unresolved trauma that I had got worse because I wasn't dealing with them.

And so I would do things as an adult that then I'm like, Oh, that's okay. Because I'm going to go run into a burning building and I'm going to save someone. And it's okay that like, you know, I got drunk, it did this, or I haven't been around my kids for six weeks, or. You know, whatever it's, I justified it because it was like, it was like redemption.

I'm going to go and I'm going to, you know, say, you know, three Hail, Hail Mary's and God's going to forgive me because, well, I could [00:39:00] die today on the job and it's all going to be okay. I'm no longer the bad guy. And so many of us reflecting now, of course, so many of us. Do you live that way there is a, you know, probably in the back, probably not in the front, but in the back, I think there is like this little voice.

It's like, all right, well, you're good guy all the time. You have your cape on. You're doing things that 99 percent of the population can't or won't do. There is, there's, there's, there's a, I think for a while until you have that realization, there is like a, uh, Um, and you don't even, and I say false in the sense that you don't actually need redemption because you weren't actually the bad guy, at least in the origin.

You may have done things that were your fault because of that origin, but the original redemption that you're looking for, you don't actually need because it wasn't your fault. 

Cinnamon: To get out of jail free card. Bingo. Is [00:40:00] how my brain. 

Erin: So based on what you just said, based on your experiences, I know that you did, you have a business, right?

An LLC called Traumatic Strength. 

Cinnamon: Correct. 

Erin: That, and, and so what. Are you doing with that business with that work? Is that specifically speaking events? Are you coaching? What are you doing out there in the world with these experiences you have and through this business that you have? 

Keith: Uh, so it's been, I just established it about a year ago, a little over a year ago, it was sort of like just with like the trainings, uh, you know, Asians, you know, whether it's conference or classroom department or whatever, for reasons I had to hold off on.

Other aspects, specifically at the coaching, because I am, I am a coach. I'm, I went through all the coaching, the certified peer support. I'm actually going through my mindfulness training now. I had to wait for that, but that will be eventually be part of it. Um, cause I realized that a lot of how I got through things.

I can't necessarily convey [00:41:00] a one friend, sort of class or two hour or whatever it is. It needs to be something that someone could benefit from sitting with me every once in a while and gaining some of this insight and working through their own stuff. And so it will be blossoming into that once. Of course, I get my website back up because, well, that's currently down for life reasons, but, um, yes, it's, it's sort of all encompassing.

I use it as a backdrop for the book, but the next book I'm working on is actually going to be tech and maybe hopefully named traumatic strength. So it's all, it's, it's kind of all encompassing, but yes, it will be sort of the how to for people, whether it's first responders or general population, I guess, we'll, we'll keep calling them.

Erin: You're like, now that I realize we're all one in the same, um, at the end of the day with our childhood experiences. Yeah. So as part of your, of your mission and going around and speaking and doing these trainings, what are the specific topics that you're talking about? What I imagine based on the fact that you have.

Attempted [00:42:00] to take your life six times. That is probably a big thing that is a catalyst to changing the dynamic and the conversation. So when you are out in the world doing your speaking events, like what strategies are you using to be that interruption? Because we can keep saying the same data over and over and over again.

And people are like, yeah, I know, but is there a specific strategy or approach that you're taking to kind of be the interruption to these folks? Well, 

Keith: the biggest thing I leave with is transparency, which I think I've made clear here. Um, But the biggest, the biggest thing I try to convey typically in two hours, I typically speak for two hours.

I've done a few shorter ones, but I don't, I don't sit up and tell war stories. When I, you know, a lot of times you'll go to a presentation, a lot of guys like, oh yeah, you know, back in this, I, you know, they walk through that gates of hell and blah, blah, blah, blah. And, and that's great. You need a little shock and awe once in a while, uh, to get into the nitty gritty and the in [00:43:00] between moments.

And I, I tell enough. You know, quote unquote war stories to build enough credibility to then get into what actually works and what actually works is ownership and mindfulness. I'm not, I don't try to convict, you know, um, get anyone to become a Buddhist. I don't try to get anyone to give up meat or anything like that.

No one needs to have three bowls in a, in a, you know, you know, we don't need to do that, but, um, especially in the first responder and military community, we're looking for a quick fix. We're instant gratification people. That's what we do. And we, when it comes to our healing, we want to walk into a therapist's office, sit on the couch for, you know, an hour session, stare at the ceiling and be like, uh, yeah, blah, blah, blah.

I'm healed. I'm done. Or one pill. One time is this isn't the matrix, you know, it doesn't work that way. And so I always try to convey like, this is what works, this is what I've been through, I'm a type A guy, I'm, you know, I'm a big guy, I'm, and my [00:44:00] size works for me, I'm six and a half feet tall, and not really small, and so when you get someone my size, who goes up there and, first off, tells about being helpless as a child, But then, says that this isn't a one and done healing journey.

People tend to listen. And this isn't saying anything about anyone else in anyone else's manner or presented. But we're at a point right now, specifically in the first responder in military world, where obviously just walking into a therapist's office, not knowing what to expect or what to talk about isn't working because we're still killing ourselves.

And so being able to get the nitty gritty out, being able to be like, Hey, this didn't work. This works. You know, this is, this is what is actually bothering a lot of us. These are the personal things like the story I told earlier that is actually getting to us and causing us to cry all night, to drink all night, to hit our wives or husbands, to beat our kids, to neglect our kids and to end our lives.

This is what's actually doing it. That's how [00:45:00] I get my message across because For a while really was, and it led me down the road to half a dozen suicide attempts. I'm done getting texts from people being like, Hey, Joe just killed himself. And I've gotten like, I don't know how many in the last six years, but it finally had to take a stand.

And for those who do present who are transparent and they're like, Hey, This is really what it is. It's not the hero shit. It's the in between stuff. And it's the real helpless shit on the personal side that gets to us. That's what I do. 

Cinnamon: I love that you said it's not a one and done. That is one of the most difficult, heartbreaking questions.

And maybe years ago I would have said it was annoying, but now. It's just, it's heartbreaking where somebody comes in and tells you part of their story or answers your questions as a, as a therapist. And then they're like, okay, so how do I, how do I make that stop? [00:46:00] Or how do I fix that? And they're looking for that.

So you spin in a circle with your head on a baseball bat three times, and then you walk 20 feet like that. But I would love to be able to say it's take this pill or just keep going. You know, coming back and sitting in the chair and staring at the ceiling, but it's work. And this is where as a trauma therapist before getting, uh, involved with first responders, it felt the injustice of it.

I'm a victim, somebody else's wrongdoing and malfeasance, and I'm the one having to sit in this chair and fix it. Yep. Leg. Give me something I can quickly do and do what was done and go back to living my life. And so the idea that I have to meditate every day, that I have to watch my tongue, that I have to be empathetic, that I have to show compassion, that I have to make sure I get a good [00:47:00] night's sleep, all of those things that I can't just screw around and live my life like everyone else.

But I actually have to like, be mindful of how I'm recovering. And I think that's the biggest secret. Everybody Is either they're either they're recovering from something If it's not, you know trauma, it's alcohol or being a jerk You know, it's something and we all really need to be doing the work So it's not how do I go join the normal people who don't have to do this work because they weren't victimized I am one of the normal people because very few people have not Had an experience by the time they were 18 that has led them to behaviors that aren't healthy.

And so it's like, Hey, those of you not doing it, come join the rest of us who have figured out we have to do the work, not I'm one of the few that got fucked over and now I have to [00:48:00] go fix myself when I wasn't the one who broke me. 

Keith: Right. And I think a lot of it comes down. You mentioned compassion. I think one of the hardest things is so many of us.

I mean, there's compassion fatigue in the first responder world. Sure. But I think for the most part, we're able to show compassion to others before we are ourselves. And self compassion and self care. It's like that is it sounds so damn cliche, but it's like that airliner thing, the airplane thing with a mass pops down and you, and you go to help the kid, no, you got to help yourself.

And you really have to. And he first just made normal, just people, people who are so someone else before the help themselves. And you really aren't doing anyone any justice if you're not taking care of yourself. And so many of us went down that tunnel while helping this person, everything's going to be okay.

I'm helping this person. I'm showing up to work. I'm doing this. I built a deck for this person. I gave money to this person. It's like, what are you doing for you? If you're not helping you, you're eventually going to shatter, not just break. You're going to shatter. And so many first responders are just [00:49:00] shattering because they're not taking five minutes to do something for them because it's been so taboo that that's selfish when you do something for yourself, whether it's mindfulness or tell me your favorite frosting, whatever it needs to be, whatever your thing is that puts a smile on your face and makes your heart warmer.

That is self compassion, and that is self care, and so many people, especially in the first responder in military world, fall short on that, because it is deemed selfish, and it isn't. It is self care, and it is necessary to survival. 

Cinnamon: Wow. I would even go as far as saying, like, okay, yeah, it is selfish, and, like, let's, let's bring selfish back.

Like, why, why did it get to be this bad thing? Right. And it's, we applaud selflessness. And we demonize selfishness, but we, there's gotta be some balance in there. And most of us would [00:50:00] never maintain or continue a friendship with someone else who talked to us, like we talked to ourselves. 

Keith: Bingo. I said that once in a presentation, I, one of the phrases that I always say to my, always used to say, sometimes still say to myself, and it's, I hate you.

I hate you. And I said to the crowd, I go, how many people would say that to their kids? How many people here would say it to their wife, their husband, their brother, their sister, their best friend, their mother, their father, how many people here would just walk up to them and be like, I fucking hate you.

Cause I say it to myself all the time. How is that? Okay. It's not. And if you're saying it to yourself, you're going to have actions and behavior that depict that towards others and more specifically towards yourself. Self harm, whatever it may be. You gotta, you gotta stop the um, the vocabulary, the narrative in your head, you have to stop it at some point.

And that's where self care and self compassion really come into play. 

Erin: Uh, what, first of all, yes, like every time you open your mouth, I'm like, yes, I love, I love these, I love when guests come on [00:51:00] and we were just like, uh huh, the whole time. But what a great lead in to, to self care, to being consistent. So what are some of the things that you are doing on a day in day out basis, or that you are finding are kind of your go-to things to make sure that you are being selfish in all the most beautiful ways and putting your recovery in the forefront?

Keith: Well, the biggest thing is, you know, and it doesn't cost any money, is when I wake up and I fall short once in a while. I try to do it every single day, is I try to, when I wake up before I do anything for anyone else, and having a five-year-old is always something to do first thing in the morning for someone else.

Right. Put my foot up, feet on the ground. I say at least five things that are positive about me. And it sounds corny. And most men out there are probably hearing this being like, oh, fuck that guy. You got to do it. It sounds corny, but it makes or breaks your day. Five affirmations. I'm a good dad. I'm a good cook.

I'm good at keeping myself clean. I like jelly beans. It doesn't matter what it is. It's just something, something [00:52:00] that is positive. And if you start your day with a mindset that is positive, it can lead to so many other things. And for me, it does. And specifically the last eight months I have like thrown myself my typically Tibetan mindfulness and Buddhism.

I'm again, I'm not going to the three bowls and a golden robe. I love my life kind of the way it is, but what I don't like is the self hate. And, and sitting, dealing with things that I know I can get past. And so I, I meditate, I'm getting better at meditating as a skill, but I use mindfulness and people think it's one and the same and it can be to a certain degree, but you can use mindfulness to be in the moment and it brings you to the now.

And that's where so many of us need to be as the now. Not thinking about the past, not worrying about the future. We don't belong in either. And that is one of the main things I do is reading and mindfulness. Every day. The other thing I do that most people take as a surprise is I still go to therapy every week and yeah, bingo.

[00:53:00] Two thumbs up. Thumbs way up. Every single person could use a neutral person. That's all therapy is. They're not actually going to fix your problems. You're still going to be the one who fixes your problems in therapies, folks. It's not the therapist who actually does it is you eventually fixing it. And having that neutral person in my life has given me such gains with my own shit.

That I keep them, you know, and came like the gym. I write, I've taken a break, put a lot of things, but writing for me is very fulfilling. And so I write for, uh, off and on for like five different publications and. It's all about what makes you happy, whether it's monetary, happy, or just in the moment, happy, you got to have things that are fulfilling.

And so you have to stick with them. And it's all about, it's all about consistency, right? And because we're so, we're, we're so like, uh, instant gratification and say, okay, well it worked now, why do I got [00:54:00] to keep doing it? But once you start doing it and you change those old habits, the habits that are, you know, unhealthy, you know, and you have the healthy habits.

You do get better. You will still have bad days until you die. You will have bad days, but. You get better and you have more better days. And so through self care and consistently doing things, that's where I've kind of gotten myself. 

Cinnamon: So you mentioned you have a five year old. So we all, well, many of us, I will exclude myself, have come to understand that showering daily is like a good thing, right?

That we, it's, it's just something that we do every day, um, or brushing our teeth. Do you think it would be valuable? To introduce something like mindfulness or meditation to five year old. So by the time they're our age, [00:55:00] they're thinking of meditation and mindfulness, like brushing their teeth or, you know, taking a shower.

Like, how do we create that? 

Keith: I already do it in my house. You know, obviously with who I am, you know, I, I tend to have. Powerful moments at times, we'll call them, for lack of a better term, daddy's big emotions. Oh, and you know, my wife, my wife is a ER nurse in a very busy inner city hospital. So through the pandemic and everything, she's now got her own stuff that she deals with.

So our daughter, we wanted to make sure our daughter doesn't get what my older kids get. So about two months ago, three months ago, now that she's five, I'm breathing with her. And really like kind of, I was optimistic, but I was like, I'm not going to be upset if she doesn't take it. And the first time I did it, I was like, Hey, you're really upset.

Come sit on the floor with me. I don't want to just, just sit with me. Just sit with daddy. And I sat cross legged. I had her sit cross legged. I put my hands out on my leg, on my legs out, palms up. And I said, put your hands on mine. [00:56:00] And she said, I don't want to just do it. And she put her hands in my hands.

She's as stubborn as I am. It's got to be the Irish. I'm like, what do you feel? And the first thing she, and she says it now, every time she says strength, I go, what else do you feel? And we walked through everything. We walked through, you know, warm, cold, sweaty, dry. What color are my hands? Where are you right now?

What room are you in? And within about 60 to 90 seconds, we're good. No temper tantrum, no nothing. And she's come to me now probably twice. It's not a lot. I'm not going to exaggerate. Probably twice. I'm like, can I breathe? I And I usually make a joke out of, well, you are right now, she's now asking for it.

She's now initiating it. And what better gift to be able to give a kid before they get, you know, hopefully not from our house, but you know, you can't protect your kids forever. They're going to, they're going to endure something. What better gift to give your kid than a, than a coping skill that they're in charge of, that they can feel complete control with, that they can do anywhere, [00:57:00] anytime with anyone or by themselves.

And it's free. Most of us should have had when we were kids, that actually is what can bring everything back down to the now. She's going to have that at five. 

Cinnamon: I could have possibly have been the kid my parents wanted had I been introduced to meditation, right? Like the idea that I like shut it down and make it quiet and stop talking, stop screaming, whatever I was doing.

It got stomped on and shoved down, but this you're giving your kid and how many of us just like shoved it down. Right? Like, cause that was the only tool we had. Your kid is learning how to not shove it down and not release it, but allowing it to just dissipate. 

Keith: Yeah. How cool 

Cinnamon: is that? 

Keith: It's very cool. It's very cool.

I think it's something that I, you know, honestly, it's, it's something that should be taught. [00:58:00] Like to every, it should be, it should be offered in the school system. I mean, they had these kids these days are, and I'm not trying to sound old, but kids these days are out of control. This helps. I mean, I'm a pretty out of, I'm a, I'm a type a guy always have been, and it calms me down.

It brings me down, you know, and maybe we need to look more into this. 

Erin: And I, I think that they are in some way, shape or form kind of bringing into the school system. My daughter did a program last year in fifth grade called rocks, which is ruling our experiences. It's specifically for girls, teaches them about, you know, empowerment, what's going on with their body, how to use their voice, how to ground, how, you know, and I was so thrilled because she is my kid and she has big emotions like me and I, and she won't Listen to me.

She won't take my suggestions, even though I do this for a living because mom's, you know, we're at that mom's always wrong moment in life. 

Cinnamon: Perfect. 

Erin: But just those things alone. And I know like my son, who's also five in kindergarten, [00:59:00] they do have like quiet time for a minute. And I know that they're sitting there, they're, uh, he, they have brain breaks, you know, where they're, they're allowed to be in their child, their childlike whatever word I'm trying to look for.

Because they are so controlled. Every little moment of the life is controlled at five to allow them to step into. I'm going to be a kid. That is mindfulness. That is being present and being who you are. Um, so it's those little things that I think. In some way shape or form, they are bringing those in, and, and I love that that is working for your daughter.

And next it's like, you know, honey, you can do this on your own. You don't have to come to daddy and ask permission to breathe, to breathe. But so wonderful. You have been So amazing. I'm so glad that we finally got to have you on the show. And I know there's a thousand things that we could touch on that we haven't gotten to touch on.

Um, you did mention that you are in several publications. I know one of them is [01:00:00] Crackle, but I'm not familiar with. other publications that you are writing for, um, where can we find some of your work? Where can we hear, um, or, or learn more or get the book, Allen, which we still don't know why it's called Allen.

I'm thinking, is it alter ego? Cause we suck and we haven't read it yet. We will audible man, 

Cinnamon: like we have to be able to multitask if we're getting there. Yes. So we, I'm super excited for it to come out, but yes, the mystery of why it's called Alan and like, is that your alter ego? 

Keith: Locations are right for our nation, which is kind of the same.

It's all clarion. And then, uh, there's a publication out of New York for the volunteer firefighters called the volunteer firefighter. Yeah. And then there's in Massachusetts, it's a similar publication called smoke showing as for the volunteers at mass. So Alan is out on, you know, Amazon, Walmart, Barnes and Noble.

Uh, people can also buy directly from me. Um, [01:01:00] again, the website is currently down, but the website is just simply keythanks. com. Once it's up, um, I sources tab. That's the biggest thing. One of the main reasons, um, like modalities and resources for general population and first responders and whatnot. So, but it has all the other stuff for all the other things I do.

Uh, t uh, why I chose Alan. I, so I'm a big music, music person. Initially I had this book called The Struggle Within. It's an old Metallica song, um, too, and the reason I decide to is one of my other, quote unquote undiagnosed diagnosis is, um, d dissociative identity disorder. The dissociative part of me has always been.

It's only a recent thing that I've been working on. And so when I started working on the midst of finalizing this book, I realized that one of my quote unquote alter egos, for those who don't know a lot about DID, uh, this larger than life sort of being my strength is what I now call it is where I, how I've been [01:02:00] able to get through life and Alan is my middle name.

And so I've sort of named my strength, Alan, and that is how I sort of came up to. What the book is, where I sort of talk about as you get further into more of my adult years, I hint at it here and there as a kid, you know, kind of checking out, but I get more into it. I don't answer it in the book. I don't actually say I named this book, Alan, because you know, blah, blah, blah.

But I allude to it enough where I think most people who have read it so far have picked up on it. 

Erin: Yeah. It's that part of us that. Allows us to survive. Like we, we have many names for it. One of the names we have for it is our manager, you know, it's our manager. And that, and that bitch on my life, she can show up and rock the day or ruin the day.

Like sometimes I just need her, that version of me to go away. And so that's really cool that you're able to. Separate those parts and I teach people a lot like this isn't actually you the logical [01:03:00] knowing you this is another version that you have created in your life to help you survive whatever you needed to survive when this part of you is created and people are people think that it means what like they have like split personalities and I'm like, no, it's not that.

Keith: Well, Hollywood did a good job making us think that it's not, it's not like that movie split there with a guy. So I was running across like a Bengal tiger and it isn't necessarily like that. You don't, I mean, some, there are, you know, extremes. You know, it's, it's one of those things where, you know, you, you realize that because of what you went through, you, you checked out to get through it.

And that's really, for me, that's, you know, with my childhood stuff, that's where all this comes from. So that's why I named the book the way I did, was to get that point across. That's why the picture on the front is a split picture. 

Cinnamon: You made me think of Fight Club, right? Like, the idea that, that it has to be so distinct, but in reality, like, we are all shapeshifters.

We all behave differently depending on [01:04:00] what room we walk into, you know? Hell, if I'm going into training into a police department, I'm going to talk differently than if I'm going into a fire department because, you know, who passed what test? So it's, it's the idea that it's, we cope and we meet. The world at a certain place depending on what we're we're coming up against and and it's a power that Many of us who have experienced trauma have had to create navigate develop perfect whatever that is and so You know to to be able to look okay When something else is is going on internally Like that takes skill and practice Um Yeah, I like the word shapeshifter, but to be able to like, pull on Alan and Alan is, is what allows you to, you know, get yelled at at the family reunion and run [01:05:00] inside and then come back out and pretend like nothing happened.

Um, Alan, Alan's good for that. You also had a movie. I mean, like, and, and Alan is only your most recent book. So you've got another book, you've got a movie, you're now a published journalist. Like, 

Keith: I don't know. Like I said, I, I had to take a step back this year. Um, and it was for us, it was like, well, I suck, but then I realized that.

It needed to happen because there's, there's a lot I want to do is more. I want to reach. And, uh, this stepping back has allowed me to grow without pressure and, um, snacks. I don't have a clear answer for, I don't think, you know, beautiful, you know, but there, there is a next, there is, there is more there. I think there always is.

There probably always will be. But I'm not sure. There is no clear answer yet for it. Maybe there is. Maybe I just don't want to say it. 

Erin: It's [01:06:00] that go slow to go fast. 

Keith: Yeah. 

Erin: And, and, um, well, I do know that someone put your name in the hat for, uh, the, the Northern Kentucky First Responder Symposium. I saw that on Facebook yesterday.

So did you, I don't know if you got tagged in it, but I saw your name got put in the ring. I know I said, yes, he would be a great person, but that's. 

Keith: I've been doing it in the past. I, uh, I was there as a vendor when I was part of a coaching business back, uh, Two. What? Back in May of 22. Yeah. I was there in 22.

We were there. 

Cinnamon: I was there. We were in the room. 

Keith: I've been checked out. I may have been checked out, but I was just there as a vendor. I was, uh, at the main stage. I was off to the right. Uh, one of the, one of the people who spoke was actually right next to me. He went up to the board. 

Cinnamon: Oh my gosh. We were directly opposite.

Like we would have been facing each other because if you were to the right and looking facing the center of the room. We were on the left facing the center of the room. We could have been staring into each other's eyes and not even realizing it. 

Keith: We probably were. [01:07:00] 

Cinnamon: That's where the connection truly started.

Keith: That's it. That's it. But yeah, I was there. And then, uh, so yeah, I know who, I know Phil and, um. 

Cinnamon: Okay. Yeah. Oh, look at us. Well. Do you also know Kenny? Yeah. Kenny Mitchell. Well, we know Kenny Mitchell, too, but I was talking about Kenny Schroeder, who works with Phil on 

Keith: that symposium. 

Cinnamon: Okay. All right. Well, that's it.

I may have 

Keith: met him when I was there. But, uh, I'm terrible with names. I'm better with faces. 

Erin: Yes. Well, yeah, when I was learning about your story, the first person I thought of was Kenny Mitchell. I'm like, wow, what a parallel in certain ways with the loss and things like that. And it's kind of funny how small the world actually is once you get into this world.

I also know that, you know, Vance and you even maybe do some bendy yoga occasionally or you buy that, you buy into that. Oh, okay. Sorry. 

Keith: I buy into it. And Conrad. 

Cinnamon: Like, like we, this has been, I think the podcast has. [01:08:00] Then the best thing for my social life since moving out of Columbus and away from Aaron to Cincinnati, because we have found so many people that we love and adore and, uh, get to be friends with outside of, you know, recording.

In a way that we wouldn't have otherwise. So 

Keith: yeah, that's very true is and it is a it is a very uh, It's once you know one person you tend to know most of the same people. 

Erin: Yeah Yes, as long as you're all rowing the same direction, right? You're all kind of in the same flavor of the game Well, man, first of all, I appreciate you dealing with us with our tech difficulties Thank you for rescheduling and being patient with us 

Keith: Absolutely for 

Erin: everything that you're doing for the world.

I love that you touched on so many times Just humanness in general, not necessarily first responder that you are in it for the human and all of us. And that is so [01:09:00] important because that is, I think, the biggest reminder that first responders do get to hear is that we're all human. You are all human, and it is, yeah, it's just so nice to hear it from you.

So please let us know if there's anything that you could use. We are here. We, you have us in your pocket now, we're 

Cinnamon: friends, we're friends, 

Erin: we're always here to support in any way we can, um, we will definitely get our heads out of our butts and get on Alan and, and put that on. So Alan will be added to our resource list along with anything you're up to, all of our guests get added.

With all their deets and cool things they're up to. 

Cinnamon: And hopefully if it works out next spring, we can meet you in person, if not before, Northern Kentucky. Yes. Yeah. 

Keith: Yes, it would be good to get back out there. I haven't been out to that part of the country in a while, so. 

Cinnamon: Ohio. Ohio. 

Keith: I like that. I like that.

It was definitely weird being out there because I was like, I was in [01:10:00] Kentucky and I landed in where? I think I landed in Cincinnati. No, you 

Cinnamon: landed at the Cincinnati airport in Kentucky. Kentucky. Kentucky. 

Keith: Yeah, which is weird. That's what it was. It was, I was like, wait a minute, I'm in Kentucky, but I'm at the Cincinnati airport.

And I was like, wow, 

Erin: yeah, 

Keith: they just 

Erin: get along so well. They're like, we'll just share, we'll share all of our things. 

Cinnamon: No, it's because we're our own state, Northern Kentucky and the Cincinnati greater area because we, we are embraced by our own states that we've had to like make our own little village. Yeah, we're going to just see it one day.

Yeah. 

Keith: That's how it is out in New England. Anything outside of Boston is its own thing. Boston is its own community. And most people think when they hear me talk, I'm from Boston. I'm not. Where are you from? Outside of Boston. 

Erin: You're from New Hampshire, right? 

Keith: Well, I'm actually from Mass, about an hour outside of Boston.

But I live in New Hampshire now. Okay. I used to 

Cinnamon: live in Dorchester. 

Keith: Oh, yeah. Boston kid. Yeah, 

Cinnamon: I, well, and this [01:11:00] is to speak to the 12 step recovery. I was once kicked out of a bar in Southie. 

Keith: Oh man. Right. That's like really, really, that's wow. We are friends. She's an 

Erin: over, she's an overachiever. I tell you, overachiever.

She's going to do it. 

Keith: I guess so. Someone was looking for a medal. 

Cinnamon: Right. Well, maybe on a different podcast, I'll talk to you about them. The white, full size white conversion van that I got into randomly. Uh, after I got kicked out. They were offering me a ride home. Uh huh. Back to Dorchester. Uh huh. And I got in, and got back to my house, realized I didn't have my keys, and God bless the person who picked me up, because he drove me back to the bar in Southie, and my friends were all outside crying.

Because I thought you got taken by a person in a way that I was dead and they had been taken Aaron you got to take this Shoot out of the box. Oh gosh. Let's see. Yeah, I I truly did so that 

Keith: a bar and selfie Wow. 

Cinnamon: Yeah, it was not good 

Keith: That's impressive. [01:12:00] Yeah, 

Erin: she's impressive about a lot of things. I was at my peak.

Keith: It must have some Irish in you somewhere then. 

Cinnamon: You'd think you, you, well, or maybe if I had Irish, they would have tolerated my shenanigans a little bit better. Maybe that's it. Because I was German. They're like, get this bitch out of here. That's hilarious. Well, you 

Erin: have, have yourself a good one. I'm going to go ahead and stop this and give you your life back so you can get out of your day.

So, so great to talk to 

Cinnamon: you. 

Keith: It was great to talk to you both. 

Cinnamon: So much fun. Make sure that you post on one of your, uh, social media pages when Alan goes to Audible because Aaron and I will have it read in like the first 48 hours of it being out. We just have a hard time finding time to read an actual book.

Keith: Yeah, no, I get it. A lot of people like that. That's how my life is.

Erin: for joining us for today's episode of [01:13:00] After the Tones Drop. Today's show has been brought to you by Whole House Counseling. As a note. After the Tones Drop is for informational purposes only and does not constitute for medical or psychological advice. It is not a substitute for professional health care advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

Please contact a local mental health professional in your area if you are in need of any assistance. You can also visit afterthetonesdrop. com and click on our resources tab for an abundance of helpful information. And we would like to give very special thank you and shout out to Vens Adams, Yeti, and Santa.

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