Mind Over Madness-Part 2: With Sean McCallum

EP98: Mind Over Madness: Part 2

Sean: what tool can we give through it? So they're empowered rather than disempowered. and that's where this little acronym COPE came in. And it's list of things to do which is a really simple tool. described as a CPR for stress sometimes people have inflated expectations of what they could have achieved. And so it was, What could I control? you have to accept the normality of discomfort but you also have to accept that it's temporary and it's not forever. 

We fulfill our intentions and we can come away from a really shitty incident and go, well, you know what? We did a good job there. Many people think that trauma is a life sentence, and often, as we know, it is, quite literally. But trauma doesn't have to be forever. the only way over something It's through it. That's what you've got to do. 

Erin: You're listening to after the tones drop. The mental health podcast for first responders.

Cinnamon: We're your hosts. I'm Cinnamon, a first responder trauma therapist. 

Erin: And I'm Erin. A first responder integration coach.

Cinnamon: Our show brings you stories from real first responders, the tools they've learned, and the lives they now get to live. It could feel like you're done, it could feel like you have completed the wisdom and the interventions or the interventions in which you get the integration, but you didn't stop.

You have the cope stress management model, and then you also have the hope suicide intervention model. So you didn't just say, okay, we figured this out. And we can get complete with the source of our suffering. You're like, and here's how we're going to do the maintenance work. And. If you get to the end of your rope, here's what we're going to do with the suicidal ideation. So [01:18:00] you're like the total package.

Sean: Well, that's very kind of you. I don't know if I can live up to those expectations, but they're lovely words. So thank you for that. So the, traumatic incident reduction. And, crisis, are, from the school of metapsychology. and I have a friend here in the UK, by the name of Johnny Ward and Johnny's, a firefighter,is what we call a station manager or a station gaffer.

We say station gaffer, Gaffer. Yeah, that, Yeah, You're right. Yeah. 

Cinnamon: or a lieutenant? Or as you guys might say, a left tenant.

Sean: Yeah, exactly. But I don't know where it, I don't know where it falls. I don't know where the rank systems coincide. So  I'm not quite sure

Cinnamon: Lieutenant, captain, 

Sean: he would, be in charge of me. He would be in charge of me. but, Johnny, is also a psychotherapist as well as being a firefighter and I love him to death.

He's got such a, practical and critical view of the mental health world, which I really appreciate. he doesn't suffer falls gladly. [01:19:00] and I've got a tendency for dismissing a lot of stuff that I just look at it and I go, what, what is this about? Like, you know, anyway, so we've got a relationship and we talk a lot and we were talking about having like a. Originally what Johnny described as a CPR for stress, and we were looking at it and looking at it and thinking and eventually we came up with this little acronym COPE, which is a really simple tool. So you know how you have, interventions. So the stuff that, we talked about intervention earlier, but Lots of things are classed as intervention, like crisis intervention, or I'm intervening with counseling, or I'm intervening with psychotherapy, that sort of stuff. I was thinking about self help and, arrived at the definition of intravention, which is the stuff that we can do to help ourselves. Okay? And, What COPE eventually became was an intervention model. So it's about empowerment. And TIR and crisis [01:20:00] are also about empowerment I'm just referring back just a little bit, just to clarify this point. Because the TIR facilitator or the crisis facilitator doesn't the models do not work on the psychiatric clinical expertise or experience of the practitioner, because it doesn't matter to us. It's irrelevant. I don't have to think about whether that person's got daddy issues or not, because that's not what we're doing here. We just provide

Cinnamon: We're not pathologizing. 

Sean: And we're not assuming mastery of somebody else's experience. That's crucial. The reason for that is because when that happens. we can get it wrong and we can create a new reality and a new sort of timeline of drama based on something that we've said that is just not true or not true for that person.

so in that sense, we don't do any of that stuff at all because we don't need to, they can get where they need to get on their own without our expertise. so the whole thing around TIR and the [01:21:00] whole thing around metapsychology and crisis is about empowerment. And we wanted COPE to be an empowerment tool as well, something that a person can do for themselves to get themselves through, a bad experience or critical incidents, we call it, without quote, unquote, intervention. in the immediacy of something horrible. Now, that doesn't mean to say that they're not going to need support in the future. But what we were originally talking about was, the period in the aftermath of something critical occurring and how they handled that.

And what tool can we give through it? So they're empowered rather than disempowered. and that's where cope came in. And it's a little, as you've probably seen, it's like a little algorithmic thing, I won't say it's algorithmic. it's a list of things to do that rely on the cope acronym and it's about control. It's about, in fact,we have a little code cards. I don't know if you can see that, [01:22:00] but this is the little acronym that we give people. So every student gets a couple of these things and they just, they take themselves through it. I'll send you something about that. 

Cinnamon: what is the 

Sean: Orientation. 

Cinnamon: Okay. 

Sean: so it's orientation, processing and emotions. perfect. Thank you. originally we were looking at, right, let's, let's give them this tool so that they can take themselves through this thing in a quiet moment, in the locker room, a quiet moment at home or whatever, and they can have the little card and they can go through it and take themselves through it.

And so it was, what could I control about that incident? What could I control? so you come back from the. fatality, and often if there's been an intention that's not been fulfilled somewhere, generally they are, but sometimes they're not, it's like people have inflated expectations of what they could have achieved. And so they don't have more objective view of the reality of what [01:23:00] they could have achieved at that incident. So if I'd have done this, then that person would have died. hang on a minute, have a look. What could you really control about that thing? so that's the first part of it.

And, The next thing is about orientation. So that's when the, incident is getting intrusive and it's, interfering with day to day life. It's about orienting yourself in the here and now, at the time when you need to, in order to remain functional. and then we move on to processing, which is about choosing a time to actively sit down and go, you know what? I'm going to think about this. I'm going to, spend five minutes with a cup of tea in the garden, and I am going to think about this. Because people need to think about it in order to confront what happened fully as best they can do. It's not about saying, Oh, it's too bad.

You don't think about it because you're going to get upset. It will traumatize you if you think about it. No, that's absolutely rubbish. Think about it. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. Yes. [01:24:00] Yeah. I wish there were more cinnamons knocking about. I can tell you that. Absolutely. because we teach people to avoid things, don't we? We do. the

clinical world as a whole is often guilty of teaching people to avoid things in, in, in therapy where they go, Oh, well, listen, if it's too painful, we don't have to talk about that. 

Cinnamon: Well, we,  call the good part of that distraction, right? distract yourself. That's a dbt scale. And yet we symptomatize avoidance. So like, where the heck is that line?Between distracting and avoiding. And so I love that, you're yes, this is an essential part to give yourself that time to think about it. Even when we do an ART intervention, we're like, we're asking you to do the thing that you've worked really hard to not do, which is to play the entire thing out. 

Sean: There you go. Yeah. 

Cinnamon: thank you.

Sean: and then the, and it's only dead simple. It's, it, again, it's not rocket science. This is just because, Johnny and I did this and we're [01:25:00] firefighters, Not as meaty as a typical meathead, 

Cinnamon: oh, I don't know, but I have my moments. Don't you worry about that. But,and then we look, and then we look at emotion, and, we're looking at, you have to accept the normality of this discomfort because It's discomforting, you have to accept that, but you also have to accept that it's temporary and it's not forever. So that was just like the little tool that we created for somebody to use after the incident. And we're working on the thing and working on the thing. And then we were talking, hang on a minute. We can apply this before an incident too, all we have to do is change the tense. So when we look back to the incident into the past and we say, what could we control about this incident? You can change the tense when you're on route to an incident and ask yourself, what could I control? You see? So it's orienting you and grounding you. While you're on that truck on the way, rather than, doing what we typically see happens, which [01:26:00] is a lot of, 

Sean: yes,

Cinnamon: X, Y, and Z of operations, but mindlessness maybe sometimes around what we're chatting about. where if we take that moment and say, all right, let's get ready.

This is what it's coming at over dispatch. This is what I'm going to be able to control based on what I know. I also cannot control that I may arrive on scene and it's not what the dispatch told me it was. Right? Like those kind of thoughts. That's 

Sean: that's right. So what we've done in that sense is we've produced a model for reactive coping after the job, let me just change the tense and realized, Oh no, we can do it proactively too. So, you know, yeah, we do have to do the procedures. We do have to check the breathing apparatus set.

We do have to make sure the thermal image cameras on. We do have to make sure we know where we go. And we do have to make sure we've got the right PPL, et cetera, et cetera. But that does not take forever. And there's always this quiet spot that we have to fill with bullshit on the way to the job that you just mentioned, where we start making jokes or, you know, blah, blah, moaning or [01:27:00] whatever we do. There is that opportunity to think just for a minute, just honestly, what could I control about this job in terms of what knowledge have I got? What experience? Well, I know I've got that. What tools have I got? Well, I've got that. I know I can do that. But there are certain things that. Responders, not just firefighters.

Responders have to realize are beyond their control and will lie beyond their control from the outset of their arrival, which is what you just, I alluded to. And then, we look at orientation. in a proactive sense, orientation. So for example, if a responder has got some, unfinished business with a particular type of incident, you know, or whatever.

And they're on route and they're frightened and I don't mind saying frightened because That is what we feel fear.

Cinnamon: They're living in the past 

Sean: Absolutely. Oh, shit. Is this going to be another one of those?

Yeah. And so at that point we start to get disorientated or even, worse potentially, um, 

Cinnamon: dissociated,

Sean: dissociated,[01:28:00] at the veryworst. I know it's marvelous. There's not much to read. Have you read it yet?

Cinnamon: Marvelous. don't use that nearly enough.

Sean: It's marvelous. Anyway. So, so, um, yeah. So, when a person's starting to feel fear, you know, your heart's going, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, you know, breathing techniques are good, aren't they? That's cool. but also orienting yourself in the job. What's my role?

What's my task? What have I got to do? so we're sort of. orienting them in the present, and then we look at processing and, because they're oriented in, the present, they've got to process what is actually going on here.

Look at it, process it. And if you're feeling fear or any other emotion, you've just got to accept that's normal. You know,so it's only a little simple tool, but it's,it's proving really, popular and, we can't say that we're, preventing PTSD or anything like that.

That's not what we're saying. What we're saying is we're giving people a tool that they can use [01:29:00] to help themselves get through this incident. and that's COPE a nutshell, it doesn't have to be an operational first response incident. You can use COPE in any sense. Anything. Mm-hmm 

Cinnamon: And I love with step three in the proactive version. If I'm having an, oh shit, this sounds like moment that is giving me insight. where in the reactive, it's like, I need to carve out time intentional, knowing that I'm going to sit in the discomfort of this, but as proactive, I can take that information of my thoughts and say, 

Ooh. I didn't realize that I need to take time out to sit with the thing that came up when I heard that come across the radio. 

And it makes me think of, are you familiar with A Course in Miracles? The book. without [01:30:00] going into all of what that is, but I would definitely look into the book and look into the history.

It's part of our, post. curriculum for a program that Erin and I work with, called Save a Warrior. But one of, the lessons that we learn in the workbook is basically we are always living in the past. In that everything that we are experiencing as it relates to something else we've already experienced. And so it's very existential thinking,

 which Erin and I have,have talked and we said, you got to read, no self, no problem before you take on ACIM because ACIM just like, you will fight with yourself trying to read this, without some kind of pre work. but the idea that Everything that we have a relationship with is based on a past relationship, right?

Like,I can't look at this set of AirPods without looking at this set and knowing that I have another set downstairs. And the reason I have three is [01:31:00] because I lose them.

And can't find them for months at a time and don't want to tell anybody. So I sneak out and go buy another pair so I don't have to deal with it.

And then they pop back up, Like I look at a pair of AirPods and I don't see AirPods. I see the story of cinnamon's forgetfulness and then it has these legs that go into,the way that I operate is problematic in the world. as it's currently built, So the way you were talking about my sleeping lip mask. It isn't just a thing. It's a million different things. And so we don't have pure relationships with the events or the things that we're experiencing in the moment. It's all With something else and to bring that to our awareness where it's not like, Ooh, is this happening?

It's, Oh, this is going to happen. And this is an opportunity for us to get closure with that thing that we didn't realize we didn't have closure with. even when I think about going on my [01:32:00] very first ride along, it's so disturbing for me. And all it was, was responding to lovely little old lady was elderly and fell out of her lazy boy or her comfy rocking chair. 

And that was a non incident for the people that I went on the run with. But for me, it was, An insight into a world that I was not personally exposed to and the tragedy of how we fail our elderly community, how we fall so short of having resources to make sure most wise of us are taken care of when they lose the ability to take care of themselves, the challenges of poverty, that a caretaker was actually at work because they can't.

Sustain themselves on the income that they may or may not be getting from a government organization that is, you know, supporting right, like, it's not that one thing. now, whenever I hear the word lazy boy, because of that 

experience. I don't just think about a comfy chair. I think about that [01:33:00] woman that a firefighter ultimately said, would you like me to make a sandwich for you since we're here?

Cause she lives in that chair 23 and a half hours a day.

so to recognize in this work, if we are living in the past moment, if everything is history to us, your history, is rough. It's all the shitty things that you have seen happen, that humans endure, humans do to other humans. there has to be an accountability for the idea that you do the things that you do so the rest of us don't have to. 

Sean: I, I, yeah. I genuinely don't know what to say to that cinnamon. I, I, I'm a bet. 

Erin: know. And it's true.  

Sean: We do. We do. But you know, I don't know what American firefighters like to have not had too much contact with American fire other than, you know, on the TV and stuff. 

Cinnamon: That's not, that's not what we're doing here.

Sean: but, I know, and certainly in first responder communities in the UK, from what I know of [01:34:00] that, of us, we have a very weird view of the world that's made weird by virtue of the work that we do. I had one doctor clinical. Yeah. Who. Was working so hard to convince me that I was so traumatized, that I desensitized and that I was stark raving mad and didn't know it. 

Well, you know, I am in some respects stark raving mad, but what I do know from myself, that was an occasion of my experience being mastered by somebody who hasn't experienced my experience. And it actually upset me a little bit and I said, well, actually, no, I'm not. Cause most of the time. We fulfill our intentions.

Most of the time we fulfill our intentions and we can come away from a really shitty incident and go, well, you know what? We did a good job there. Somebody's passed away, unfortunately, but we did a good job. And that happens a lot. And we were, we were talking on station a few days ago, actually, with my watch.

I know it [01:35:00] was. This thing of navigating by fatalities. I don't know if you've ever heard of that. My uncle, Jim, he was terribly liked to, he liked to pint the uncle, Jim, and he could navigate all the way down to the South of England via pubs. And this is before satin house, you know, blessing. And, I think there comes a at a certain point in your career where you've got this inventory of incidents whereby can go down that road.

All right. Yeah. That one there, that one there, that one there, that one there, so on and so forth. But that doesn't necessarily mean that It's ongoingly traumatic, it's just that recognition sometimes that, I mean, for some it is, don't get me wrong, you know, you'll, you'll get firefighters and responders that will avoid certain routes to avoid being reactivated because of a certain incident, which tells its own story, because something's clearly left undone, but, for the most part, we are resilient people and that resilience grows as we [01:36:00] growwhat we don't do very well. And I think this is the world over. What we don't do very well is, and I'm not saying you can inoculate people against trauma. And that's just not the case. I think I've demonstrated this. You know, already today, the uniqueness of subjective criticality is that experience at incidents and through incidents It causes such vagary that I don't think we're ever going to be able to put our finger on the thing that if we do this, that's going to prevent PTSD. No, I, we're not there yet. but what we can do is at least prepare, people when they enter into first response to say, is, you're going to experience this stuff. And these are the tools that we're going to give you. We recognize it as a psychological hazard. This is what we're going to give you to help you manage that sort of stuff. We need to do more of that, I think.

Erin: That's what we've been saying since day one.

Sean: Yeah, I've heard it. 

Erin: How can we be, proactive rather than reactive. And side note before I forget to say this while you were talking, I was looking up Save a [01:37:00] Warrior is now in the UK.

Sean: Oh, right. Okay.  

Erin: and I can send you the information ours here and also find the contact information for the gentleman who came here to go through the program, but then started it in the UK because I have no idea, like on a map, what things look like. I'm just not very good with the geography or anything like that. 

Sean: Yeah. Thanks. Please do. 

Cinnamon: there is a Facebook group called Save a Warrior UK and they have a website that is www. saveawarrioruk. org. and they're asking for a donation of 20 cricket balls. Yes. Quote cricket balls. So apparently, they knew that we would giggle over here about a donation of cricket balls, but yes. And I, I'm not seeing where exactly it is located in the UK, 

Sean: I find it 

Cinnamon: if I see that while we're talking, I will mention it, but yes, that is a [01:38:00] new venture.

Over there. 

Sean: brilliant. Yeah. I'm going to look that up and I'm also going to tell you what we also call a cricket ball and we call it a compo, 

Cinnamon: Compo, like C O M P O. Compo. Okay. 

Erin: like a whole nother world.

Sean: Oh yeah. 

Cinnamon: will sign up for cricket lessons with you, and we will also, maybe, I don't know, the new hot thing over here is pickleball, and it's a little bit embarrassing. but, 

Erin: And we're guaranteed to be wearing tights because we never leave our 

Cinnamon: we, Yeah.Yes. So if you gotta wear like some kind of jean or thick fabric, bottom half clothing, like we're gonna suck at that. that is just not what we do. We got asked about going out to dinner at our last, speaking engagement he said something about my making reservations. I was like, please don't make it fancy, because we will be in hoodies like this, in leggings. So don't make us change [01:39:00] clothes. We're real low key.Yeah. 

Sean: of the content, not what's dressing it. That's the thing.

Cinnamon: Absolutely. So, before Erin, to wrap us up, which I never know when that's going to come because I lose track of time, I am very curious about the T. I. R. 

Sean: If you want to do TIO you've only got to get in touch. think crisis and TIO and stuff would help you 

Erin: I wrote it down. 

Cinnamon: I'm looking at the T. I. R. you know, especially when we are trained about empathy, it's very different to train somebody on how to use their facial expressions to express empathy, where, that is very interpretable. 

Erin: Yeah. Whether it's on the part of the person of what my face does to show empathy versus what you see when I think I'm showing empathy versus the non reactive face and, how that can open up.

Cinnamon: And I loved what you said about, not assuming mastery of somebody else's experience 

Sean: yes, 

Cinnamon: because what we call that is the stolen aha moment. if I'm [01:40:00] like, oh, isn't that interesting that you did that with your girlfriend? That sounds a lot like what you were trying to avoid with your dad when you were Seven and 

Sean: yes,

Cinnamon: you're no son of mine after you tried to 

Sean: yeah, yeah, And you can see them go, what have I just said? You can see it. You can literally see them start to curl up and they're like, oh, fuck. Does that mean I am now this, and I have done that and this and et cetera. And so you give them a whole new bunch of timelines that they've got to work their way through when they're already dealing with whatever's going off. one of the interesting things about TIR. in how we deliver it, in terms of empathy, we remain on reactive. that's the way that we do it. We remain on reactive. we don't even raise eyebrows and even like a nod. We tend to frown upon, but the empathy, the empathy comes by the fact you're acknowledging absolutely every little bit of data that this individual's got.

Nothing goes on acknowledged. They don't feel judged in any sense. for example, I would [01:41:00] never go, Oh, thanks for telling me that. I would never say that because you're setting up a potential for them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah. Or, I would never say. For example, well done for getting through that because then it sets up the potential for me to criticize them for not getting through something. 

Erin: Oh my gosh. I'm like, I don't think I'm cut for this. I don't know. 

Sean: No, honestly.

Cinnamon: it's a retraining. Do you provide duct tape in the trainings to,

Sean: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We can.

Cinnamon: and maybe like 

Sean: No. 

Cinnamon: forehead to keep my eyebrows 

Sean: Yeah. No.honestly, it's, once you get used to the modality and how to do it and how we do it, it's literally. Really.

Cinnamon: Andit is like if we're trained to do this, I should probably should move my hands closer together. We probably should also be trained to do this, that way. There's a time and place for everything. So if we've developed this as clinicians, then I need to be able to do what TIR is doing when that time [01:42:00] calls for that, because not every client is going to benefit from my. Empathy.

Cinnamon: I think it's powerful to listen to you while I'm watching Erin and I both nod,

Erin: you are. the active listening skills that have been trained into us. It's like I'm literally doing this so I don't 

Cinnamon: nod my head, like it's a completely different 

Sean: Yeah, it is. Yeah. 

Cinnamon: to even realize how 

Sean: Yeah.

Cinnamon: That is into 

Sean: And you know what, that's what makes TIR facilitators different because often they've been through the mill and they've had the put, go, Oh, that must've been awful. You don't need to talk about that. In TIR, you can go, okay, tell me all about it. I'm not frightened, I'm going, lay it on me. give it me.I don't, pardon my French, I don't give a fuck what it is. 

I want you to tell me about it. [01:43:00] And I'd really love to share with you if that's alright. So I have a,a student to our facilitator. Her name's Amanda and she's awesome. And she's working towards a certification with me as her,trainer and she has a. nonprofit organization called standing tool, which helps, women with, domestic abuse and violence. And she's on like the recovery side of things, and she's added TIR into her practice and she has, a particular client, and I'm not going to mention the language because I don't want to identify that client, Their first language isn't English. And, Amanda came to me

 for support with a session and the client doesn't have in her native language, her first language, a word that equates to the English word that she's trying to get. across. Okay. And there's a problem as well, because there are words in English that they don't have in her language and words in her [01:44:00] language that they don't have in English. Now, the process of TIR is a very strict protocol where the, the person, the client goes through the incident, and then they tell you about the thing. Now with a lot of what we call talking therapies and the general. idea about that stuff is, talking helps, it's good to talk, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But the real secret is what's going off within the mind, and the, recalling and restructuring of what's happening there.to handle thatall we had to do, because with that person centered, all we had to do was organize a little protocol with the individual and say, look, I'm going to give you the instructions that I need to give you in English, which you understand, you can then speak to me and give me your answers in your native language. And when you've finished speaking, just give me a little nod so that I am aware that you've definitely finished speaking to me. And then I will give you the next instruction. Okay. [01:45:00] And if there's a problem, please indicate that to me in English so that we can talk about it. And so.Off they went through the protocol. And so you've got the client speaking in her native language, which Amanda doesn't understand. Okay. And still the protocol works and still TIR is effective because the individual can still get where they need to get, even if you've got two people speaking two different languages, now that sounds ridiculous, but I can assure you it's the truth and 

Erin: No, 

Cinnamon: Amanda doesn't need to 

Sean: Absolutely, because she's not interpreting, she's not analyzing, and she's not making any form of judgment or clinical. diagnoses or anything. She doesn't need to know. she just needs to provide an attentive presence for the individual.

Erin: She just needs to facilitate the 

Sean: she's facilitating. Yes, exactly.

Cinnamon: And that's partly why we use the term facilitator. It's such a wonderful thing. And imagine that you could not achieve that in a therapeutic setting where you [01:46:00] have The practitioner who assumes mastery over all things psychological and the client who is the,vulnerable, person who needs support at all costs, because if they were speaking different languages, the clinician couldn't interpret, you see? And would agree with that. 95. To 98 percent of the time the reason why Erin and I are such big fans of The intervention that we use for bilateral stimulation therapy is because I may ask you What sensations are you feeling in your body now that you've you know told me that little segment of whatever 

you've told me and I don't need To know I don't need them to find the language like if they're like, it's like a buzzy feeling.I don't need to understand it. I say it. So they go in and pay attention to it and they notice it. And [01:47:00] so it's that, again, I'm facilitating the question. For them to recognize that something's actually happening because we know with trauma and interception, you start working from here up and you lose that, right? So along those same lines of why we love this. It's not for me to 

Sean: Yeah, 

Cinnamon: It's for me to facilitate you going to a place and thinking about a thing or noticing a thing that way trauma works in our body. we don't.

Sean: Exactly. 

Cinnamon: We

Sean: Exactly. It's

okay. if for example, I'm, so I'm in charge and I say to you, there's a great big pink elephant outside of your back door. You're left with a choice. Do I believe Sean? Is he a bullshitter? Is he bullshitting me now? And even if he wasn't bullshitting, what are the chances of there being a great big pink elephant outside my back door? [01:48:00] have to choose to accept that, don't you, or not. Okay? But, if I'm in charge about, and I know more about pink elephants than you do, you'd be more inclined to accept my viewpoint. However, knew that there was a pink elephant, outside of your back door, and I wanted you to see it, I could just say Ladies, I want you to go to your back door, have a look outside and you'll find a great big pink elephant. Okay? And then you'll go, oh, shall we go and have a look? I don't know, because he could be taking the piss out of me here. soif you decide to acquiesce to my request, you get up and you go to your back door, open the door. Lo and behold, there's a great big, pink elephant. Now, if I knew that there was a great big pink elephant outside of your door, and I wanted you to know about it, all I would have to say is, I want you to go to your back door. Open it, have a look round, come back and tell me what you see. 

Erin: Yeah. 

Cinnamon: I don't even have to tell you [01:49:00] what you're gonna find when you 

Sean: Absolutely. 

Cinnamon: And it's a self facilitated 

Sean: Yes. 

Erin: and that's the same thing with the intervention. They don't talk to us at all. All they're doing is visualizing and then all we're doing is saying, okay, put that to the side and tell me what you're experiencing your body. And then we talk them through that and they go through it. And what, one of the things we say is I'm going to give you a suggestion of what you can visualize, but your brain might show you something totally different. And that's okay too. Right? So we're kind of steering them with the idea that it might not be the tool that they use to process it for themselves. So they still have the right to choose. usually they don't, but sometimes people do,

Erin: choose like, oh, my brain showed me this and we're like, cool, 

Sean: 

Cinnamon: Or not to feel, obligated if they have to steer away from where their brain goes to get to where we sent them. it's this is just an idea. And I always say, I'm not in charge. [01:50:00] In fact, you're not even in charge. Your brain is in charge, and we trust your brain before anybody else in the room. So if your brain goes down this way, this is where you go.

Sean: That was, I think that, I think I picked that little ditty up from Sarge. I think just to give him credit there, just in case it wasn't. But yeah, that, that's the basic principle of it. 

Yeah. Oh, he's wonderful. Yeah. Really nice guy. fact, do you know what the TIR community as a whole is just a wonderful community of people that are doing so much good across the world. Really all, it's nice 

Erin: who do we need to know that is part of this TIR community in the United States?

Sean: Oh, there are loads of, there are loads in America, loads of TIR facilitators in America a member of the board of AMI, which is Applied Metapsychology International. So AMI, is like the parent organization for the Traumatic Incident Reduction Association. 

Cinnamon: Meta Psychology 

Erin: there you go. And There are, if you listen to the podcast that I did, Marianne Valtman, she's, Marianne's wonderful to speak to,she's like [01:51:00] TIR God, it's ridiculous. Yeah, and I learned so much from Marianne. But the thing is the community, so it's because we're so person centered, and you don't have to, identify with a particular culture or belief doesn't matter where, A person's, whatever a person's reality is their reality, and that's the build and end all of it. We would never contradict it anyway. So if they think it's, or whoever that's controlling things or God in the Christian sense or whatever, that's, that's fine. that's your reality. We would never ever, in fact, we do have quite a number of,lay preacher and stuff who practice TIR. It's really interesting because it is so universal. You don't have to subscribe to a belief set in order to practice it. Okay.  

Cinnamon: we are all about finding, we're not committed to what we do. We're committed to finding the thing that works. 

Erin: Mm hmm. 

Sean: yes, 

Erin: it, it.

Cinnamon: so if this works, then we [01:52:00] will do that. because I think if you do this job long enough, you start to find problematic areas. With everything that we're taught in terms of a 

Sean: yeah.

Cinnamon: method of intervention, there's all kinds of faulty things like CBT is, revered and Do you know how difficult it can be to tell somebody that their thinking is irrational? 

Sean: I, yeah, 

Cinnamon: CBT says, irrational and

Sean: and that sort of thing, that's I could never, ever. It like, it turns my stomach thinking that, 

Cinnamon: Yeah. 

Sean: that's the way it is, 

Cinnamon: and my thinking is if what happened to you happened to me, I would likely think the way 

Sean: Yes. Um, 

Cinnamon: that makes it rational.

Sean: exactly. you can only judge rationality by virtue of its context. Can't you on, Yeah. 

And a good thing about metapsychology and the way that. That this whole thing works is that metapsychology is in itself like a, it's a conglomerate of a number of different approaches,like the stuff about subjective criticality, that's [01:53:00] phenomenology. I was studying phenomenology at that point. Oh my God, that, holy shit,that's what's happening, psychodynamics, there's, there are cognitive elements in there too, but the main thing is that when we help an individual to address their trauma, it's the most person centered you can get, because my view, you can't be person centered and yet still interpret their reality for them. 

Cinnamon: Hmm. 

Sean: you interpret someone's reality, it's your reality that you're imposing on them. And that's not person centeredness. 

Erin: Mm.No,

Sean: in my view, I know people have different views. I get that.

Erin: I'm saying mm, like, yeah. 

Cinnamon: I mean, it's, a conflict in terminology.

Sean: Yeah.

Cinnamon: How are we going to put the person at the center of it when we're putting our narrative at the center? there's only one center, 

Sean: yeah, 

Cinnamon: right? There's only one bullseye on a dartboard.  

Sean: That's right.

Cinnamon: so I tend to ask folks this question we barely [01:54:00] even scratched the surface of all the things that you're doing.

Erin: I love that we have just had this long conversation. Really did not get into the career in a fire service whatsoever, didn't get into your career as a veteran, like we got to the heart of the matter, and it just goes to show your level of growth and how committed you are to this we're not talking about the war stories in quotes that people seem to get stuck on about how that is their identity, that has made them who they are. obviously you're speaking so much of our language. So I say all that to say, is there anything that you feel like we didn't touch on today that you feel like you want our listeners to know, to leave with today? 

Sean: I think that this is perhaps going to sound a little bit soft, but I am a big softie. Many people think that trauma is a life sentence, and often, as we know, [01:55:00] it is, quite literally. But trauma doesn't have to be forever. It doesn't. And, as I hope I've, to some extent, demonstrated today, in having this wonderful opportunity to speak with you guys, even the most rough de tough de responder can carry on and have A functional, positive life beyond even the most horrendous of incidents, if they're able to, engage in therapeutic work, whichever sense, I mean, you know, I'm a champion of TIR. I'm always going to be, but you've got to cross that threshold in the first place. You've got to get to the point of, I need to deal with this. And the sooner you do it, the sooner you'll be over it. And I think there's one, phrase, that I think first responders will identify with is that the only way over something It's through it. [01:56:00] That's what you've got to do. The only way over it is through it. 

Cinnamon: Oddly enough, as you were getting ready to say that I wrote down the only way out is through, and then you said it, 

Sean: Wow.

Cinnamon: we are with you. We are of the same mind that This is a sacred responsibility that if people trust us with the worst days of their life, that we do our damnedest to know how to skillfully support their walking through it. 

Erin: Yep. Aww, I love it. 

Sean: I feel warm and fuzzy.

Erin: I know this has so awesome 

Sean: It has.  

Erin: so I'm going to say thank you so much for taking the time with us today. I often say this with our guests because it's rare that we don't fall in love with our guests. it's like attracts like. [01:57:00] The people that we attract. to be on our show as guests are cut from the same cloth as us. 

There's an energetic. Vibe that it's like, Oh, these are my people. And so it, yeah, we have the red thread. So we have formed such beautiful relationships and I'm like, welcome to the club, the ATTD club. No, thank you. I mean, we have a conference, in May that we're co hosting and a bunch of our. Past guests are either speakers at the event or coming to have a resource table at the event so we can all be together 

Cinnamon: We're like slumber party. 

Erin: minus the pillow 

Sean: You, you, you pair belong on a firetruck. I'm just going to say that. You pair belong on a firetruck. I get it. 

Cinnamon: worn the pants. I've went through what we call here Fire Ops 101, where we get put in gear that actually fits us. And I've done a room sweep on one [01:58:00] knee and no, don't put me on a truck cause that is, second to some emotionally challenging things. Being on one knee trying to search a room for bodies in those pants. is by far The hardest. I mean, listening to therapy side of it and then actually going and trying to do your job. I don't know how the fuck y'all are doing it. I just, it's 

Sean: There's a secret, neither do 

Cinnamon: It is.

Erin: They just 

Cinnamon: Yeah. 

Erin: get so much training that you just like completely bypass any concern and do it 

Sean: No, no, 

Cinnamon: not like anti flammable because that would be so much easier 

Erin: In fact, they're 

Cinnamon: do those 

Erin: flammable, I'm sure. 

Cinnamon: The spandex is unreal.

Erin: so thank you again, sweetie. 

Sean: It's been lovely to be with you and I do appreciate your time today. And it's, nice to have some laughs, isn't it? 

Erin: yes, always,  

Cinnamon: we have to. 

Erin: especially when we talk about this. 

Erin: Thanks for tuning in to today's episode of after the tones drop. We've been bringing you some real mental health insights And we'd love to hear what you think. If you're enjoying this show, take a minute and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. And don't forget, share this podcast with someone who might benefit from it. A big, thank you to whole house counseling and Nova's home mortgage for sponsoring today's episode. 

And a special shout out to Rob Maccabee for writing and producing our shows. music just a quick reminder. After the tones drop is here for informational purposes only. It is not a substitute for medical or psychological advice. If you're in need of help, please reach out to a mental health professional in your area. for more resources. Head over to after the tones drop.com and check out our resources tab. We really appreciate you being a part of this community. Thanks for listening and sharing.