Redefining Dispatch: With Jessica Wiederhold

EP30-Redefining Dispatch

00:00:08 Jessica: Growing up, my father, my uncles, aunts, cousins, all in the fire service said, I'm never going to marry a fireman. I don't want to do anything with this career. I met my husband and he was a firefighter. So I went to EMT basic school, went to firefighting school that did not pan out for me. And my mom was like, well, your aunt is in dispatching. So why don't you just go sit down with her? And I was like, oh yeah, I'll do this. Some days it's 10, 15 minutes between each call. Other days you hang up and there's been call on hold that you have to pick up. I don't know how to even explain it because you just go into this mode where you're just suddenly following your medical protocol and it's almost like we turn into robots. You're taking a call for something completely different and then all of a sudden your mind is just like, wait a second, you just went through something very traumatic. Now your emotions should start. Anything I can do, whether it's, hey, do you want to go sit outside and you want to go talk about it? It's just me taking little steps and I don't know what the right way is, but I am always open to suggestions from people saying this is what would help me.

00:01:12 Cinnamon: It's the first responder, the first to get the call, the first on scene, greeted by God knows what, pushed beyond the limits that they don't even set. Then what happens? You're listening to After the Tones Drop. We're your hosts. I'm Cinnamon, a first responder trauma therapist who founded our practice after seeing the need for specialized care following a local line of duty death.

00:01:39 Erin: And I'm Erin. I'm a first responder integration coach.

00:01:43 Cinnamon: We help first responders receive transformational training, therapy and coaching.

00:01:49 Erin: Now we come to you to explore, demystify and de-stigmatize mental health and wellness for first responders.

00:01:57 Cinnamon: Our show brings you stories from real first responders, the tools they've learned, the changes they've made and the lives they now get to live.

00:02:10 Erin: Yes, we are finally in a position to be able to have today's guest on the show. It has taken three different tries. Actually, today is try number three and it is a success. She is here. She's darling. She is going to be a lot of fun and bring a lot of experience and expertise to our show today. Like we've discussed a while back, we've been pretty passionate about getting the voice of the dispatcher heard. That's really, feels important to us and to the dispatchers, I'm sure. So we're excited to have our guest today. So allow me to introduce Jessica Wiederhold. She's a dedicated professional who has been making a significant impact in the field of emergency services and dispatch management. Jessica currently serves as the director of the Clermont County 911 Center, a role she has held for a brief yet impactful how many months now?

00:03:10 Jessica: I'm at 14 months today.

00:03:15 Erin: 14 months today. 

00:03:18 Cinnamon: Happy anniversary. Glad we could be here. 

00:03:21 Erin: I brought the cake. 

00:03:22 Cinnamon: Glad we could be here to celebrate. 

00:03:23 Erin: I will cut it. So 14 months. Fantastic. But her journey within the center began with her appointment as assistant director, where she gained invaluable insights and experience during a five-month tenure. So that was a pretty quick transition, huh? 

00:03:37 Jessica: Very quick.

00:03:38 Erin: Wow. But it looks like prior to your leadership roles, you served as program administrator with the Clermont County 911 Center. Okay. And so that just really showcases your commitment to the organization's growth and its success. Sounds like you embarked on a career in dispatch in 2012. Marking the beginning of your journey in public safety. Your initial dispatch experience started part-time at Northeast Communication Center and quickly led you to transition into a full-time dispatcher role at Clermont County in December of the same year. So here's another fun fact about our guest, Jessica, is Jessica happens to also be married to a firefighter, which we know how that goes, you know. We all just kind of cross paths eventually. 

00:04:32 Erin: Yeah, it sounds like this connection to the world of firefighting has also inspired you to recognize the value of the peer support teams and fire departments leading you to the advocacy for similar initiatives within the dispatch center. Which is beautiful. So that's exactly why you're here today is to kind of get into more of what you've been doing in the advocacy world, which we're super excited about. But it sounds like since taking the role as director in Clermont County, you have initiated positive changes within the center itself. Sounds like you've introduced measures to encourage mental health support for dispatchers, recognizing the importance of mental well-being in this demanding field. And your dedication to enhancing the center's approach to mental health reflects your commitment to the welfare of your team. So it's great to have such a forward-thinking individual on our show today. And don't worry about doggy tap dancing. Is that what that is we hear? So yeah, we're so excited to have you.

00:05:33 Jessica: He'll probably make an appearance when he jumps up on the table.

00:05:38 Cinnamon: Nope. That is totally fine. My pug is usually tap dancing at some point, but right now he's asleep. So we're just gonna like– 

00:05:49 Jessica: Don't bring it up.

00:05:49 Cinnamon: Not wake the baby.

00:05:51 Erin: He'll join in a minute, I'm sure. But thank you for taking the time to make this happen and– 

00:05:58 Jessica: Oh, thank you. Thank you for having me. 

00:06:00 Erin: Every time. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Every single time. 

00:06:02 Jessica: Thank you for working with me. So it's been a hard thing to get tracked down, but I’m glad I’m here.

00:06:10 Cinnamon: We get crazy schedules. That is the one strength we have is that we're understanding… about time.

00:06:15 Erin: Definitely. And I should say, I want to say actually, just like our last guest that we had, Monica, Jessica also reached out to us about coming on to speak on behalf of the dispatcher, which I love it. You know, when we first started doing this, we're like, we're going to have to go find people. Because obviously we can't have our clients on. So it's so fantastic that people are saying, I want to tell my story. I want people to hear what I'm doing, what it's been like, how I see an opportunity for change. And so thank you for contacting us to be on the show.

00:06:50 Jessica: Thanks for having the platform like this. I think it's awesome to have somebody who's willing to look at firefighters, police officers and dispatchers' side of things and not just group us in with everybody else. I think we're our own breed.

00:07:04 Cinnamon: Erin talked about how we appreciate people reaching out because that was a little bit of a concern when we first started. And we do want to tell those stories. But also, since we've gotten started, we've seen so many podcasts with similar themes pop up. And for people to be reaching out to us in particular, that helps, what's the word I'm looking for, reaffirm that we're doing something right, you know? Erin, get her started. 

00:07:34 Erin: We're both kind of like, uh. 

00:07:36 Cinnamon: So Erin, we probably should say is a little bit under the weather and she is usually the driver in the driver's seat and I'm just like in the backseat with a pen in my hand. So if we sound a little off today, it's because our driver has some congestion.

00:07:52 Erin: It happens when you have kids that bring germs home, so it is what it is. But really, we would love to just hear about your story, like what got you here. I know I read a little bit in the intro for you, but I'd love to hear from you what kind of got you into this work, what it's been like for you. What's changed for you as far as why, the advocacy? What did you see that was missing that you felt like you could make a difference in? Those kinds of things. We usually just kind of jump in and throw questions out or– 

00:08:23 Cinnamon: Tell your story. And then we'll ambush you after you finish.

00:08:25 Erin: Yeah. Or in between.

00:08:27 Cinnamon: Let's be honest.

00:08:27 Erin: We do.

00:08:28 Jessica: So growing up, my father, my uncles, aunts, cousins, all in the fire service. My dad was no longer firefighting after I was born, but still a heavy supporter of it all. Like I said, all my uncles, a lot of my cousins were doing it. So growing up, I said, I'm never going to marry a fireman. I don't want to do anything with this career. You know, missed Christmases, missed parties, you know, so-and-so can't be here today because, you know, it was a normal thing. But I told myself, never going to do this. So I was going to go to nursing school. Failed out of it, and quickly decided that I needed to find something else. And one of my aunts was actually working at Northeast Communications. And I think my mom suggested I go sit with her. She's like, Well, you know, you kind of know the business, go down there. And I did. Oh, I'm sorry. That was... I missed a whole year of my life. 

00:09:27 Erin: Go ahead. Throw it in. 

00:09:29 Jessica: So I went to nursing school, failed out of it, dropped out, etc. Came back, didn't know what I wanted to do with my life. And I met my husband in July of 2011 at the county fair, thanks to– 

00:09:41 Cinnamon: What county? 

00:09:42 Jessica: Clermont County. 

00:09:43 Cinnamon: Okay. 

00:09:44 Jessica: He was a firefighter there working for my uncle. And I needed help with some force items I had. Meeting moved and he was the firefighter that my uncle sent over. And if you ask my husband about it, he'll tell you I was a stage nine clinger and followed him around the rest of the week at fair, but I think it's the other way around.

00:10:05 Erin: You're like, yeah, I was such a clinger that here we are married now. I mean, obviously I didn't freak you out too much or anything.

00:10:04 Cinnamon: Right. I was like, he was like, I tried to peel her off, but she wouldn't go. So I just gave her a hard, solid story.

00:10:21 Jessica: You know, honestly, when we first started dating, I was like, I've got to do whatever he's doing. So I went to EMT basic school, went to fighting school. That did not pan out for me. That's all I need to say about that. And then that's– 

00:10:38 Cinnamon: It's that damn ladder, isn't it? Two thirds of the way up is sufficient.

00:10:44 Jessica: It was definitely not for me and I was not going to continue down that path. And that's when I believe my mom was like, well, your aunt is in dispatching. So why don't you just go sit down with her and... I think it took one night and I was like, oh yeah, I'll do this. And she got me hired on part-time and I worked there for like seven months and then got hired full-time at Clermont County as a dispatcher. And I tried to leave once and I still ended up coming back.

00:11:13 Erin: So... What was it about that day with your aunt that you were like, this is it, I'm going to do this? 

00:11:20 Jessica: I don't remember, honestly. 

00:11:21 Erin: You just knew it? 

00:11:22 Jessica: I just knew it.

00:11:22 Cinnamon: The shock and wonder just overtook her memory. She was bedazzled in the eyes.

00:11:28 Jessica: I don't even remember. Honestly, at that point, I was only 18, 19. I don't know. So I probably was just like, oh, well, okay, here's a job. And then I got into it and I was like, this is something I really like doing. That's how I ended up full time at Clermont County.

00:11:43 Cinnamon: I wanted to ask, and that's why I asked what county the fair was at, but Northeast Communications, that sounds private.

00:11:51 Jessica: It is. It's the dispatch center for Loveland Sims Fire Department and the city of Loveland. It's a very, very small center. They only have two dispatchers on at a time. 

00:12:01 Cinnamon: So it was like you and your aunt? 

00:12:03 Jessica: Pretty much. I mean, yeah, I mean, there was only ever two people working. So even during busy times, it was two people.

00:12:14 Cinnamon: Wow. Keeps overhead low. You don't need that much square footage on your dispatch center.

00:12:19 Jessica: We were in the basement of their headquarters.

00:12:21 Cinnamon: Yeah. So now you're at Claremont County and you got this boy toy firefighter that you never would go. You're like, not going to marry.

00:12:28 Jessica: Yeah. I said I was never going to marry him.

00:12:30 Cinnamon: Until you got to stage five.

00:12:32 Jessica: Yeah. And we just got along so well. And then getting into that feel like we both kind of had this weird sense of humor. And you don't find that that often. And he really pushed me to, you know, stick with it. like this is a stable job, you're a good dispatcher, just stick with it. And then we got married three years later. Yeah.

00:12:52 Cinnamon: So that's why she was making that face when I said, and she was doing this three years before she got married. So it wasn't because of him. And it still isn't because of him. But now I know what that face was about. You're like, yes, but dispatchers and ED nurses are... They have... And then teachers. And teachers is the other category. 

00:13:144 Jessica: There's just such a stigma about like, oh, you must have married him because you were a dispatcher and I'm sure you met on the job. And it's like, actually, it was kind of the opposite.

00:13:21 Cinnamon: But it is. It's so common and I'm not ragging on nurses. It's just– you know, when you ask a firefighter, it's like their wives are teachers, nurses, and dispatchers.

00:13:31 Erin: And now I see more often like clinicians. I've been hearing that more. I'm like, well, that's great that you have a clinician in your pocket, although you're never going to listen to your wife, of course, because we don't listen to her.

00:13:45 Cinnamon: No, my husband does not listen to me.

00:13:49 Erin: That was a giant transition then. You went from this tiny little place in the Loveland area, which for our listeners, that's just like a little tiny guy place to Clermont County. Which is huge, I would imagine, in comparison. What was that transition like?

00:14:04 Jessica: So Northeast only dispatches one fire department, one police department. Clermont County, we have multiple townships. We cover most of Clermont County besides Union Township and the city of Loveland and the city of Milford. It was a pretty hard transition, honestly, because at Clermont, we have to do everything. So some dispatch centers are lucky in the sense that they have dispatchers versus call takers. So at those centers, you have a call taker who's just taking the call and that's it. And then they send it off to somebody else to be dispatched. At Clermont, most of the time, our dispatchers are taking the call. And then saying, okay, hold on just a second while I dispatch the ambulance for you. So they're doing both. So that was a, it's a really big transition to figure out, honestly, at Clermont. Where at other counties, they have that separation where, okay, I can focus on my caller and not have to worry about the first responder coming out this way. So that's it's big.

00:15:01 Cinnamon: I would also imagine whether or not it sounds different to like the naked ear of an outsider. It's a very different kind of conversation that you're having with someone who's calling 911 versus even just shifting to use the lingo that is appropriate to dispatch that call. Yeah, absolutely.

00:15:22 Jessica: You always have to be professional, obviously. You know, you can't talk to a caller in code or anything like that. But then you have to memorize the station numbers, the unit numbers. We have some nice technology now that helps our dispatchers on the fire radio. But, you know, you have to remember to tell the responders they're awake, the patient's awake, the patient's breathing. This is the address. These are the cross streets. Here's your other units and route. Here's your fire ground with it. Then you have to turn back and follow a medical protocol that's right in front of you and multitask and talk to both of them at the same time.

00:15:56 Erin: So was it like that then when you went in? It was just kind of like you got thrown to the wolves? I guess my question is, has it always been like that?

00:16:02 Jessica: At Clermont, yeah. In training, we take it step by step. I think when I trained, I started out just taking calls at first. You know, you kind of get accustomed to taking calls and then they slowly incorporate the radios into it. And then if you're a police dispatcher at Clermont, you don't take calls unless you absolutely have to. The police dispatcher, we try to keep them off the phone because they're talking on the radio and an officer goes on a foot pursuit or a traffic pursuit. They can't be busy talking on the phone. And because our luck, you know, someone's going to be not breathing. So we're trying to give CPR instructions. And now an officer is in a foot pursuit. And how do you handle that?

00:16:42 Cinnamon: Yeah. Well, and do you monitor? And maybe monitor is not the right word. But if you do have an officer that's in a foot pursuit, obviously, you end up with the responsibility of tracking them and making sure that if they need medical attention, you know where to send it. And so it seems like there's a whole different kind of thing going on with police dispatch than fire dispatch.

00:17:11 Jessica: Yeah, I was just thinking of examples in my head. There's many times where, especially on night shift, and this is not dogging any officers by any means, but you know, they come across somebody in the middle of the night and they don't necessarily key up and tell us right away where they are. And then all of a sudden, they're just yelling on the radio, I'm in a foot pursuit, I'm chasing after this person. And we're like, we have no idea where you are. So then we have to try and ask them, where are you at? Well, they're trying to chase somebody. And then you've got all these.

00:17:41 Cinnamon: I don't think I could talk and chase.

00:17:44 Jessica: Yeah, I don't know how they do it. Well, a lot of the times they cannot. You know, and then you've got all these other units asking, where are they at? Where are they at? Where are they at? Well, I'm trying to find them. Thankfully, there's a lot of technology coming out to have GPS trackers on officers. Honestly, I mean, it sounds like you're tracking an animal. But, you know, with the technology of body cams, radios even now are starting to have GPS tracking in them. So when they key up, it will bring their location up on the map. We don't have all of that yet at Clermont because it's a lot of money, obviously, but that was way off topic.

00:18:21 Cinnamon: I think that's kind of important, and we may not have mentioned it otherwise, is that what kind of technology and ease you have in doing your job and working to maintain the safety of the people you're dispatching for oftentimes comes down to how wealthy your area is.

00:18:40 Jessica: That’s exactly it.

00:18:41 Cinnamon: If you don't have high property tax for whatever reason, or levies don't get passed, then you're not getting money and you may have to wait several more years before you get the technology of maybe a wealthier community.

00:18:53 Jessica: Exactly. We have been very lucky and this is on the fire side of things that we were able to purchase a couple years ago, what is called Locution. And it has helped our fire dispatchers and it's automated dispatching. I mean, until 2018, I think, is when it came to Clermont County. Dispatchers, you know, would be taking the call, and then they'd be like, okay, well, hold on just a moment while I dispatch the ambulance for you. They'd switch to another screen, figure out what station it is, then go back to the radio screen, have to figure out what tone to drop, drop that tone, wait for it to be done, and then make the announcement to the station, respond to this address, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, Locution does that now for our dispatchers.

00:19:37 Erin: We're doing wellness assessments for departments and I have heard them say something about Locution. Locution. Okay, like Cushion. I've heard them talk about it in there. So now we know what they're talking about.

00:19:54 Jessica: And it's been very helpful for dispatchers, especially in my center, because it's taking that 10-15 seconds and doing it for the dispatcher so they can focus on giving CPR instructions or telling them how to get out of their house that's on fire. And they're not spending their time looking what tones to drop, etc. So that's actually been a really great piece of technology.

00:20:17 Cinnamon: So what would you say to the firefighter or the police officer who would perhaps, how do I say this, complain about the change over to a service of automation like Locution, right? Like we do hear folks like to say, oh, that we have this new techno girl that tells us, you know, this automated voice that we don't like. But they're doing it from their side. And so I would like for them to hear it from your side. Like, why does it serve everyone better?

00:20:51 Jessica: It helps eliminate human error. There is still a factor that a human error, you know, you can put in a wrong address. But there were a lot of times where dispatchers, instead of this station, they would drop this station's tones and wake the wrong fire department up in the middle of the night. This eliminates that if the address is put in correctly. So that helps on our end to keep everybody safe. It helps the citizens because we don't have to put a 911 caller on hold anymore. You know, we don't have to say, hold on just a second. And, you know, previous to Locution, it would take us almost 60 seconds to dispatch a structure fire. And now it's a press of a button and they can turn their focus back towards the caller. We had a lot of people that did not want it. Even dispatchers. They're like, we don't want this. This is terrible. It's a terrible idea. And everybody right now says, you cannot get rid of this. It's a lifesaver. And as short-staffed– 

00:21:43 Erin: Everybody in the dispatch center?

00:21:47 Jessica: Yes. Everybody in the dispatch center. Yeah. You know, hearing it on the fire side of things, which I hear a lot of it at home, and the biggest complaint, I think, for the fire departments was, well, we don't hear the excitement in a dispatcher's voice anymore in the beginning, you know, because we get a little amped up, too. We know it's a good structure fire and we get nervous and you can hear our, we go up in octaves, and they don't hear that anymore. I think it's better. It's the same thing every time, the same tone every time. But yeah, all the dispatchers, I think, would kick me out of my position if I tried to take it away from them.

00:22:19 Cinnamon: And even thinking about what they say that they like, like they can tell from your voice whether or not this is going to be a good call. Right? Like, they get pumped up, too. And so as the trauma therapist in me, my first thought is, oh, yeah, I like that that is eliminated because they're already juiced up enough as soon as the tones drop, right? To a degree that they may not even realize because it's now just like so automatic. So the idea that they are not getting that extra jump of juice from just when the call comes over, let alone, you know, after they get in the truck and they're on scene or whatever. So I could see why that would be a complaint. And as the trauma therapist, I'm like, yay. It feels like in the same domain as, like, the tones that titrate up, they get louder and louder. So it's not like this huge startle when they wake up in the middle of the night.

00:23:17 Erin: Yeah, but they like that adrenaline dump. Give me the juice.

00:23:24 Jessica: Oh, they sure do.

00:23:22 Cinnamon: Don't take it away. And it also kind of impacts when you said about the 60 seconds of delay. There's a lot of things that funding, reports, staffing issues that get the time of arrival, like from dispatch to arrival on the scene. Those things are taken into account when presenting data to a township trustee board or a town council. And so to shave 60 minutes off of it, like that's huge.

00:23:53 Jessica: 60 seconds.

00:23:55 Cinnamon: 60 seconds. Thank you. I in my head knew 60 seconds.

00:23:59 Jessica: Yeah, and there are standards out there that say that from the time we answer the call, we have to have a call dispatched within so many seconds. And That piece of technology has helped cut the dispatching time portion of it substantially.

00:24:15 Erin: Yeah, and I imagine if you have a caller on the other line that's in hysterics and you can't get them to calm down long enough to even get any kind of information. It would be very challenging to be like… And we talked about this before, like, ma'am, can you calm down? Of course not, you know? And so that's just going to add to your time.

00:24:34 Cinnamon: I kind of have like a weird question and it kind of folds into the things that I wanted to make sure that our first responders hear. When you do have that caller that is hysterical, or difficult to understand, or you need to take that time to help them calm down so they can at least give you that information. That kind of rolls right into my line of questioning. Historically, I say to Erin, nobody is going to say, hey, let's start a first responder peer team. And you know what would be a good idea? Let's include the police. No one says that, right? That's just an automatic. But I watched it happen when they're like, you know what, let's get the dispatchers in on this. And so while it's a different kind of experience, it can still be just as traumatic. And I really want to make sure that our first responders who we love and we also know like to complain, right? They don't like change. They don't like things how they are. What it is like for the dispatcher who does get that hysterical person and you have the responsibility. Because I always think of like, if I'm a medic working on a family member, and another family member is like hysterical, I can say, hey, cop, come over here and get them out of my way.

00:25:53 Jessica: Right.

00:25:54 Cinnamon: And then they can do their job. But you can't tell that person to get out of your way. It's that person that you need to get information from. So how do you manage that?

00:26:03 Jessica: Yeah, we can't just hang up on them. It takes a lot. All of our dispatchers go through multiple courses, like a basic telecommunicator course and then our medical protocol course. And that is heavily addressed. And it doesn't happen as often as people think that it does. I think statistics showed it was only a small percentage of times that we actually have hysterical callers that we cannot control. And, you know, it's repetitive persistence, you know, calmly talking to them, not yelling back, not matching their level. And that's a hard thing to do that you hear somebody yelling at you and they're cussing and get them here now. I just need help. Why aren't you listening to me? When they're yelling and you just get amped up, too and you just want to yell back. And it'd be a lie to tell you that all of us are perfect and we've never yelled at anybody. But we can't help anybody without an address. 

00:26:59 Jessica: So repetitive persistence. What is your address? What is your address? What is your address? Figuring out their name is a big thing. You know, you get their name and then you're like, okay, Jane, are you listening? You know, we have to help. And just being very, almost to like a whisper level gets people's attention when they're in those moments because they're like, wait a second. I can't hear them and they're supposed to be helping me. And then all of a sudden, we can talk to them. That's a lot of training and a lot of people struggle with that and dispatch because, you know, the first thing we want to do is defend ourselves. Don't yell at me. Don't talk to me like that. Well, they're in the one emergency of their life. So, you know, we have to have some compassion for that too. That this is maybe the only time they ever call 911 in their life. So just being calm with them helps.

00:27:54 Cinnamon: Yeah. I mean, I called a few years ago and I remember because I thought my husband was having a heart attack. And, you know, all I was thinking very quickly was, I'm going to wake up tomorrow a widow. Like I was, I already was like burying him. And so it was like, not even trying to communicate just about what was happening, but I was already like in this panicked level of grief. And the first thing that I remember them telling me was, we just dispatched someone to your house. And I'm like, the hell you did. And what had happened was like three houses up, there was a dispatch for a police because of something that was going on there. And so I know that I was the worst and I was already doing this job. And yet because it was my emergency, it was my husband, it was like all bets were off. And I was just like a normal citizen that knew nothing.

00:28:49 Jessica: And honestly, we have, you know, medical professionals, firefighters, police officers that call in and they have been hysterical themselves. But you're right. It's so different when it's your own emergency that you kind of lose track of... Well, you're just panicked. I mean, dialing 9-1-1 is terrifying.

00:29:07 Cinnamon: It's scary. Like, most of the... Like, you have to... There's almost like a contemplation.

00:29:11 Jessica: Yeah, you have to... And once you know you're going to do that... Is this really happening right now? Like, do I really have to call? 

00:29:18 Erin: Well, yeah, and you're in fight or when it's your own situation, you're in fight or flight. You're immediately going into this desperation. You're not using like your logic in those moments. So it would make sense. It doesn't matter how trained you are, be it whether you're a first responder or cinnamon, you're going to be in that fight or flight mode. Come save my husband.

00:29:42 Jessica: Now, don't get me wrong. And you're right. We've had callers, you know, medical professionals, that call in and are like, you know, I know what I'm doing. Thanks. And it's like, okay, do you call 911 and we're trying to help you. You don't have to be a jerk about it just because you know more than us medically. We've had that a lot, too, actually. And it's like, you know–

00:30:03 Cinnamon: I'm still your middleman. 

00:30:05 Jessica: You called me to help you, you know, I mean, but that happens.

00:30:08 Cinnamon: Well, and I think it's important to say like, you know, kind of what we're describing about that. I like the word frantic better. I started out using hysterical and I was like, that has such a negative connotation, like that frantic. But as much as my prefrontal cortex is going offline and I'm being controlled by my limbic system, I would imagine that despite sometimes the intense training that you have, you guys are having the same thing happen where, you know, it's if it sounds like another call or the tone just comes across wrong, that you can kind of like go into that zone and have to pull yourself back out.

00:30:49 Jessica: Exactly. I mean, we go from having these callers who are cussing us up and down. And then the next caller is, you know, a sweet elderly person, and they'll just say one thing wrong. And the dispatcher is like, do not talk to me like that. And it's like, whoa, bring yourself back in. It's a natural reaction to be that way. I mean, yeah. And it happens.

00:31:10 Cinnamon: We call it biological rudeness. Biological rudeness. We got a term for it. Yes. You'll hear that on another episode that's coming out soon. 

00:31:20 Erin: Yes. Go ahead, Cin. 

00:31:22 Cinnamon: So you mentioned, you know, going from the frantic caller to the sweet little old lady who still gets her head bit off. What is that like? So we know that if I'm in a firehouse, or if I'm in a cruiser patrolling, I have this one dispatch center that's dispatching for us. But you all have so many departments, both police and fire. And so, you might do 20 calls in an hour, where maybe a police or fire department might only get one call an hour. So what is that turnaround time in between calls, realistically?

00:32:02 Jessica: Some days it's 10, 15 minutes between each call. Other days you hang up the call and it rings again. Or you hang up and there's been called, you know, a call on hold that you have to pick up. It comes and goes, you know, just like the fire service or the police service, you know, it's like nothing will be happening. And then one minor thing will happen. And then suddenly, there's four crashes, multiple EMS runs, multiple police calls. And you're like, why? With how shorthanded I am right now, all three of my dispatchers are answering calls all morning long. Our center typically does over 250 calls a day, probably on average. And that's calls created. That's not how many phone calls are coming in per day. That's calls that we have sent for service, meaning that they're, you know, an officer is being dispatched or a fire department is being dispatched to it. And that's probably the average number per day. So, you know, you double that for the amount of phone calls that you get. And if anything happens–

00:33:05 Erin: Did you say three people? 

00:33:07 Jessica: I have three dispatchers from midnight until noon each day right now. And then I have a fourth one that comes in and works noon to midnight. I have four in training. My goal is to have four dispatchers plus a supervisor on each shift plus a swing shift here and there.

00:33:29 Erin: Wow. So what are you telling these new dispatchers as they're coming in and getting thrown into the fire, so to speak?

00:33:37 Jessica: That this isn't normal. But unfortunately, I think I'm lying anymore. It's hard to get people to do the job. Nobody wants responsibility. And that's all that our job is, is responsibility.

00:33:52 Cinnamon: Well, and I think that makes you very similar across the board with the rest of the first responder world. There is such a labor, I don't want to say manpower, that kind of sounds sexist, but that's what I mean. There's not enough people signing up to do the job to keep our communities afloat. And it's scary at times. Because what we lose in that is a lot of seniority and experience. So you have young, new people that have less people with seniority to learn from. And then the community turns around after maybe not passing a levy that would allow for decent pay or more hiring and they're like, well, you know, we're going to complain about our fire and police, not necessarily correlating their lack of willingness to, you know, pay taxes is exactly what, you know, it's hard enough to not have the people to hire. Also, when you don't have the finances to back it up because this is a job that certainly should be paid more than what McDonald's workers are getting paid. Simply not to devalue McDonald's employees, but this is really difficult work.

00:35:10 Jessica: It is. And all you know, I have such a high turnover rate that all my positions are night shift. So You know, you're telling somebody that here's your amount of pay, and I need you to work night shifts for a really long time. And you're going to hold people's lives in your hands. And if you don't do something with that, you're responsible. Nobody wants to do that.

00:35:33 Cinnamon: Well, and now we're saying, by the way, we're spending all this time and energy working with existing first responders to stop the rates of suicide by addressing their mental health. So people are like, oh shit, their mental health? I don't want to go near that. I mean, it's almost like this double-edged sword of addressing, finally, mental health, but then it becomes a public issue, which could potentially make it less attractive. Okay, let me ask that. To offset that, you know full well the complications when it comes to mental health and the dispatching world, or even the first responder world. What value do you still see in light of that, despite that, of becoming a dispatcher?

00:36:30 Jessica: I love to tell the story. And I think any dispatcher in the same shoes will tell their story as well. I've helped deliver a baby. And that right there, I mean, that's like, holy crap. I literally helped a family bring a baby into this world. I've helped bring a life into this world. And that story always sticks with me. I love stuttering over my words. I just love the story. They brought her to the dispatch center after they were released from the hospital. And I think the good outweighs the bad. We've had a lot of bad calls in the last couple years at our center, but we don't hold to that. You know, a lot of people will still talk about the good calls. You know, don't get me wrong, there's burnout, you know, and negative does seem to outweigh the good. 

00:37:23 Jessica: But dispatchers who are in it for the long haul always talk about their good stories. How many babies I've brought in or, you know, we had multiple dispatchers last year honored for saving a person's life by giving CPR instructions. And that recognition, I think, has helped a lot of dispatchers say, you know what? I like this job. And– 

00:37:44 Cinnamon: You all see me. 

00:37:45 Jessica: Yes. And just that recognition and the good stuff truly does outweigh the bad. Whether firemen or police officers tell you or not, I think that they always, there's always good things that come about things that, that's why they hold on to it. And that's exactly why dispatchers do. No one goes in, loves to give CPR instructions or you know, deal with domestics, but everybody loves when something good happens so– 

00:38:19 Erin: Hey there, listener. If you could ask any question or freely talk about any challenge related to being on the job and no one would know, what would you say? We are excited to share about our confidential hotline that we created just for you. Through this confidential hotline, you can leave a message sharing a success, a struggle, or simply ask a question. We will spotlight calls and offer feedback and insight from a licensed therapist and a certified coach who work exclusively with first responders. You can access our hotline voicemail by visiting afterthetonesdrop.com and clicking the voicemail tab. Additionally, you can join our mailing list if you'd like or easily follow us on Facebook and Instagram for all the most recent updates. You know the drill. Tell a phone. Tell a friend. Tell a first responder.

00:39:27 Cinnamon: You know, you mentioned the last couple years for you all at the Clermont County Dispatch or Communication Center has been rough and because I live in Clermont County, as you were mentioning, the people we don't serve. One of my first thoughts when you said that was the multiple homicide, where the children were murdered. And if you're open to talking about that, I don't know what your level of involvement was in that, or if we can just kind of set it up, maybe not that particular event, but the idea of... I've heard from people that were on the scene, whether they were police, fire, paramedic, the struggle of seeing it. And for those of you don't know, there was a triple homicide. A triple homicide locally here. I don't even know how long ago. It feels like yesterday where a father murdered his four, three children, boys. 

00:40:31 Cinnamon: And so what whether it's that and I certainly am not wanting to trigger you and I saw how you like sat up a little straighter. Knowing that it would have been you all that took that call. You know, you're not on scene. You're hearing things. It's very different than having that visual.

00:40:50 Jessica: You're going to bring tears to my eyes. 

00:40:54 Cinnamon: Which I think that's good. I mean, not because I want you to suffer. But I think that speaks to how passionate you are about your work and how things can impact you. But I always think about it in terms of like, you gotta have some kind of visual that comes to mind as you're navigating that and they're giving you directions and you know, creating this scene in your mind. But then all your, you're just hearing and what you're hearing may make it worse or just as bad as if you were on scene. So can you talk a little bit about what it's like to not be on scene and see that and what that experience is like as well as like the impact of the auditory communication?

00:41:39 Jessica: I will say I won't talk about that case specifically because it's really hard. So, and actually, with the legal side of it, we cannot. Any call involving something traumatic like that. Oh, it's giving me chills. The screaming in the background is probably what does it for most people. It's hard. Because you're right. That's the first thing you do is start imagining. A lot of our dispatchers though, and I'll tell this story, they shut it off. They don't realize what they're saying when they're saying it. They're just doing it. And autopilot. And then afterwards they're like, holy crap. I just dealt with that. Like, did that really just happen? Did I really just deal with that? And I can even think of calls that I've taken where you have to talk to the person who's finding this or seeing it happen. You're telling somebody, okay, you have to do CPR. And they're telling you, no, I can't. I don't know how to even explain it because you just go into this mode where you're just suddenly following your medical protocol. And it's almost like we turn into robots. 

00:42:47 Jessica: But it's also to the point where sometimes you do follow your medical protocol, but you have to veer off to try and talk to your caller like you're not a robot. It's almost the weirdest phenomenon to do that you go from doing your protocol and talking to them, but then not comprehending what you're going through. Another good example that I can talk about is a dispatcher that took a call for somebody that had been murdered. And then the next, they hung up the phone and the next call was a barking dog complaint. And for a dispatcher to go through what they had gone through and then switch to that is, to me, that's the definition of a dispatcher. You have to be able to move on that quickly. I mean, the recording of those calls were combined. That's how close the calls were to each other. You go from one extreme to somebody else dialing 911 for something that most of us don't think is an emergency. So It's just weird. I don't know how to explain it. You just do. You go into autopilot.

00:43:48 Erin: Cinnamon, based on what she just said, wouldn't that be a certain level of dissociation in a way?

00:43:56 Cinnamon: Yes. I don't know if that would meet the definition, but I certainly think that it is removing yourself from part of the situation to be able to focus, kind of like how Jessie, you were saying, they go into that autopilot. And then once the call's over, they have that adrenaline dump or that crash. And they're like... And I always think that that might be the time where somebody would cry. And it's just that, like, all of a sudden, it hits them. And they're able to, like, scroll back and comprehend what just happened where before they weren't necessarily... They were comprehending, but they weren't downloading it. They were just responding to it. And then afterwards is when you, like, download it. You're like, whoa.

00:44:42 Jessica: And it's almost like a call or two later that you really are like, you're taking a call for something completely different. And then all of a sudden, your mind is just like, wait a second, you just went through something very traumatic. Now your emotions should start. And myself, my own experience, I've had to, you know, moments, 10-15 minutes after a call is over, I have to go sit outside and just let it out. And then you got to wipe those tears and get back in there and keep answering the calls. That's what's crazy about the mental health dispatchers and that firemen and police are the same way. I mean, I've seen it. I know that they go from one call to another as well. 

00:45:22 Jessica: You just like you have to wipe those tears and get back to your desk and start answering the next call. I think that that's why we have a lot of burnout because you have these very traumatic calls that were very true emergencies. And I'm not downplaying anybody who calls 9-1-1 if they think they're having an emergency. But everybody's definition of an emergency is different. And when you've been in the business a long time, and you've taken those type of calls, then when somebody calls 9-1-1 about when the fireworks are going to start, the dispatcher is going to get ticked off because they're like, why are you wasting a 9-1-1 line for this? But to that person, it's an emergency.

00:46:04 Erin: Yeah. As a supervisor. as someone that oversees all of this that has personally done this work and that is watching the dispatchers that work for you go through their situations, what are you doing that might be a little bit different or what blind spots or gaps do you feel like you're working on filling to make sure their mental health is handled and taken care of?

00:46:32 Jessica: Every day is a learning curve for me still. I have had some dispatchers reach out and say, what can we do to make this better? And it kind of like stops me in my tracks. And I'm like, what do you mean? And they're like, well, you know, maybe so and so has gone through this. Are we going to see if we can help them? And I'm like, yes, what do we need to do? And honestly, you know, prior to my, me taking over, mental health was, I mean, we just never really talked about it. We, you know, we had tried to, I think a couple of dispatchers had gone to the peer support training, but nothing was ever done about it. Like, okay, well, we have it. So if they need help, they can just go talk to them. And since I have been approached multiple times about, you know, what can we do? I know what it's like to go through calls where you're telling somebody that their loved one is gone or anything traumatic like that. 

00:47:36 Jessica: And sorry, I'm getting so much that's going through my head. Anything I can do, whether it's just like, hey, do you want to go stay outside? You want to go talk about it? Come into my office. Let's talk about it. Do you need to take a walk? Recently, we've got a dispatch dog. And that was the spur of the moment decision. And the dispatchers made me cry when I said that we could keep her. It was, they, I can't tell you how many of them were like, thank you. Like, I have one dispatcher who doesn't even like dogs and she is so excited. And she brought tears to my eyes because she had a, somebody had a bad call. They went over and pet the dog and then just like walked away. And that dispatcher was like, that's, that's what we needed. And I had to walk out because it's little things like that, that I think that supervisors or directors can do. I mean, a dog is not a little thing and she's not a little dog, but just listening. I mean, I've changed a lot of things and there was, there was nothing really wrong with how our previous director did things. That was their way of doing it. 

00:48:36 Jessica: But I got rid of uniforms. They have a polo shirt. They can wear whatever they want. And they tell me all the time that that has helped them so much. And I'm like, if that's what helps you, then yay. I'm glad I can. We're trying to put packets together for somebody that if they just are having a down day, they can go and grab it and there will be resources in it. Different ways, you know, breathing techniques, what can you do to help relieve your stress? Are you doing these things at home? Because that's probably not helping you. Honestly, it's just me taking little steps and I don't know what the right way is. I don't try to lie to anybody about that. But I am always open to suggestions from my people saying this is what would help me.

00:49:22 Erin: So you're saying you don't know what the right way is, but it sounds like you do because obviously you know what the wrong–

00:49:29 Cinnamon:  The right way doesn't work or the right way is listening.

00:49:33 Jessica: I was going to say, I think just listening to them and them appreciating what they do. Like I've been out there, I've taken calls, I've taken calls recently and I told them, I don't know why you people want me out here. This is ridiculous. I'm not doing a good job. And they're like, yeah, but you're actually just, recognizing what we still have to do. And now they make fun of me when I walk out there, but that's okay. I deserved it. But yeah, I think listening is just a big thing and stuff that doesn't hurt anybody. I mean, I know that uniforms seem so silly, but you know, I just ask them to wear a polo during the week or they've created shirts that say, I think it says Clermont County 911 and it's got a headset. If that's what makes them happy, then they've got to be there for 12 hours. I've got dispatchers who work 16, 18 hour shifts. I wouldn't want to be there in a uniform. So anything would make me happy. So, I just listen. 

00:50:29 Cinnamon: You know, what I would call what you're describing is organizational resiliency, right? Like we put a lot of the onus on our individual first responders about quote, self-care. And that is great. But if you don't have organizational support, then you can breathe in through your nose and out through your mouth as much as you want. But if it's not a place where your opinion is considered, you feel stifled, you feel misunderstood, you feel unappreciated. And so it's so critical to have someone that gets it, right? And you sound like you're doing a phenomenal job. And those dispatchers are so blessed to have you. And I think about, you're so right. And I, my God, how many times do we hear other departments complain about like, oh, they wouldn't let us wear this in the winter. Or we still had to wear these black shiny shoes despite the fact that it was like 17 inches of snow. And like my feet were soaking wet. It was just like, you know, if it's about aesthetics, like that's just stupid, right? 

00:51:54 Cinnamon: And also sidebar, no disrespect for anyone who's still making them wear those shoes. But like what you said is the enthusiasm that comes out of like, hey, everyone, we're going to get rid of uniforms. And if you want, I will support you custom creating a design for a polo where you can, you know, we'll all get it. And obviously, it might need to be approved or whatever. You can't have like crazy stuff on it. But it's almost like that level of agency given to the employees to have someone say, what you're doing is hard. And tell me what you need. I will do whatever I can to give it to you. And if you don't know, I'll call around and find out something that I can throw at you to see if it will help. And if it sticks, great. And if not, no. 

00:52:46 Cinnamon: You're the kind of leader all of our first responder agencies really need, whether it's dispatch police or fire that, you know, that mentality of, I've got to listen to my people because they're the ones who know what they need. And then I have to back it up by providing it where I can. And then it looks like your intentions come across where it's not checking a box. It's not something that has to be argued about or pulling teeth to get done. But the fact that you're like, yeah, there are some simple things that the world's not going to end. And if this makes it better and easier, have at it.

00:53:27 Jessica: And I will say the, my wake up call was I had somebody come to me one day and said, I think I need somebody. And I said, oh, my gosh, like what? I don't even know. Is there a policy for this? I didn't even know where to go. And I still beat myself up for that day because I'm like, I literally could not point this person in any direction. And I thought, I should not as a leader be that way. You know, I should be able to say, this is the quick step that you need. Let's get you on it. And, you know, sure, some of it was me just not knowing my new role and what was all available. But I think that sometimes mental health takes a lot of steps to get you for, how do I politically correctly word this? I just don't think it should be a hard task to be able to get your employees help when they need it. It shouldn't be jumping through hoops. 

00:54:27 Jessica: Well, okay, well, you got to call this number or you got to go onto this website. You're going to have to log into this special computer. I think it should be something that's readily available because I have a lot of dispatchers who are like, I'm fine. I don't need any help. Don't even ask me. Like, it's fine. This is my job. I'm just, I'm fine. And others that you can see it's written all over their face. And I don't want to be caught. I don't want the dispatcher who has for years said, I don't need any help. I don't need anything. I don't even need to know that information. For when they need it, they should be able to just grab it. We were, you know, we're in a small room. Essentially, we're not spread out. I don't know. I'm never I mean, I've been in police or police stations and fire stations and they, you know, have their sitting areas, their bedrooms or break rooms. We are stuck in the same room for 12 hours. We can't get up and go into another room for a couple hours and watch TV. We have to stay where we are. 

00:55:26 Jessica: Sometimes we are literally tied to the desk that we're at. So people that may be having, you know, some moment, their partner is right there three feet away at the next table. They're like, I can't even pull this up on my computer because they're going to see it and laugh at me. And I just, I have been working with our local peer support team to figure out ways that we could get a phone app, like I said, the packets, whatever we need to do. That day just woke me up and said, I have to make sure that I'm a step ahead.

00:55:58 Erin: Yeah, and people can continue to say, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine. But by golly, that doesn't mean you stop asking, right? It's like, because you will be there the one time they're like, Nope, I'm not fine. And when you set that precedence that they might not be in a position to say, I'm not fine yet. And even if they're internally not feeling fine, but they know because you are creating that foundation that they can go to you, because you're not going to quit asking. What do you need, you know? And that is so beautiful and so needed. I think everywhere, you know, it doesn't matter what job you do or who you are, but especially in this world, this first responder world. 

00:56:46 Erin: Hey, there to all you fearless folks who've been tuning in to After the Tones Drop. You know, we've been dishing out some real deal mental health wisdom for our first responders, and we need your help to keep it rolling. So here's the deal. Take a minute and do us a favor by leaving a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform. And listen, we're not expecting a novel here, just a few lines about what you're appreciating about the show, whether it's our interviews, perhaps the educational aspect, or just our goofy humor and metaphors. And your feedback, it's like the gasoline in our engine, fueling us to bring you more of the good stuff. So let's keep that siren wailing and those reviews pouring in. Thanks. We appreciate you.

00:57:32 Jessica: You know, I like the idea of the peer support teams at each department to be able to pick out somebody that you trust. I mean, it's not like it's an election by any means, but somebody willing to be that person that somebody can trust and call. And I myself want to take more initiative towards the peer support to make sure. I mean, learning my new role as a director, I've learned that we are not, we can be traumatized by it still, too. Sentiment talked about the incident earlier this year. I was not there. I had already left for the day and you guys saw my emotion.

00:58:11 Jessica: It's, so to be able to have a director, a now one director that could talk to somebody else or you know another now, one director if they need it or another supervisor or something like that. Because you know us supervisors or directors, we're fine, we're fine.

00:58:28 Erin: Yeah, of course. And if there is anything that we can do, we're, I'm in Columbus. It doesn't matter. I got email. I got, girl, I have so many resources.

00:58:37 Jessica: I love Columbus. I'll come up and see you.

00:58:39 Erin: Yeah, come see me. But we can send you some stuff for your packets for like just different exercises they can do.

00:58:46 Cinnamon: Like, we can even throw in our badges and bottles information because we do have a first responder AA meeting that we offer Tuesday nights on Zoom. And one of the challenges that we see with people who want to address alcohol recovery or just not comfortable with their alcohol use, they don't want to go necessarily to a meeting where they might run into somebody that they've had to have professional contact with. So we offer that for our first responders. So it is a safe community. And we also, we are not limited by any means to talk about just alcohol. It is drugs and mental health and everything else.

00:59:28 Jessica: And I think that's a big thing. I mean, not just from the dispatch side, you know, seeing firefighters, they don't, sometimes they just don't want to talk to like somebody else at their department. Because they're like, the stigma is still there. Like, oh, I'm gonna be judged and I'll never be able to make a run like that again without being made fun of. And I think the more people that are out there that are just available will help. I mean, I know some of our dispatchers aren't comfortable talking to local peer support for the same reason. I don't... What if I run into somebody I know? What if they know the same incident and they're like, why do you... Why are you upset about this? So– 

01:00:06 Cinnamon: Well, and I think what you, Jessie and Erin were talking about, you know, in terms of having that diligence about asking is, you know, everybody is fine until they're not.

01:00:20 Jessica: Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

01:00:21 Cinnamon: And it's that moment when they're not is when you want to be prepared. And, you know, we've talked to a lot of people who have years on the job, and they did not anticipate the response that they had to certain things and were shocked. Like no one was more surprised than them. You know, so I like the idea of, you know, you just got to check in. And you got to ask because somebody might be willing to say, you know what, I'm not okay, or I'm not fine. as a response, but they may not initiate that. And to have leadership that guess that is cool. I have three things. 

01:01:08 Erin: I was just about, you know, she knows me. 

01:01:11 Cinnamon: She is going to cut me. That's why. 

01:01:14 Erin: She knows I'm looking at the clock. 

01:01:16 Cinnamon: Yes. First thing on my, my countdown of three, one, you get more involved with the peer team and you go out on these deployments when we have to, when we're asked to go into the community to talk to different departments after a critical incident, I guarantee you they're going to get their dispatch people to show up. If we have a dispatcher going out with the crew, to respond, then they're going to invite their dispatchers and they might be more inclined to come because they know somebody gets it and they're not having to compete with the validity of the trauma of the people that were on scene. The other two are questions. And the first one is, what, and I think this may be something that police and fire can also relate to this when Erin's going to tell me to shut up and just ask the question, but how does it work for you to not know how things end?

01:02:16 Jessica: I think it helps us disassociate things, honestly. Because for the longest time, I'm not downplaying anything that has happened during my career or anybody's emergency, but it's almost like it doesn't happen. It's like, oh, okay. I did what I needed to do. Because, you know, you're not seeing the fire trucks leave the station. You're not seeing the police cruiser driving down the road. You know, we talk to him on the radio and that's it. Or we're talking on the phone and then we hang up. That's it. And it's almost like a game, like a puzzle piece game that you're, okay, I've got to complete this puzzle because I have this middle piece, you know, the coal, and I have to get the support it needs, and then it's out of the way. So I think it almost helps to disassociate things, not that makes it correct. But we have calls where we reach out afterwards and try to find out. Dispatchers have been getting subpoenaed a lot to court. I have a whole nother feeling on that, but we won't go into that. There's nothing I can do about a subpoena. But they're having to go back into the courtroom and listen to the call again. So then they are finding out what happened because now they're in court in front of the 911 caller, the defendant, the victim, witnesses. And I already forgot the question.

01:03:38 Cinnamon: Not knowing how it ends. And I'll tackle on to that because I've heard this, even getting awards, even getting recognition, if they play that 911 tape back, it can be really triggering. So you're talking about being in a courtroom, even when it's a good thing, it cannot go out.

01:03:59 Jessica: A lot of dispatchers don't even want the recognition. And the previous director and I pretty much had to force two dispatchers to go get recognized. And I don't know why those specific dispatchers didn't want to. It's not my business. I'm glad they did because I think it's a good thing. And I think they were glad they did once they did it. But yeah, it could be triggering, you know, it just brings back a lot when you have to replay it. And, you know, we do quality, we're trying to do quality assurance. So we're going to have somebody going back and listening to these calls. And then we have to tell these dispatchers what you did and what you didn't do. And so that's going to be really rough to get through that. But I think not knowing what happens helps us in a way? Probably not in the long run. 

01:04:52 Cinnamon: That was the question. 

01:04:53 Jessica: You're like, I forgot.

01:04:54 Cinnamon: No, you didn't. You got it. That is good to know because my initial thought would be, God, that would be hard. In my mind, not being a dispatcher, you get so invested in that moment. And then it's like, did they make it? Did they not make it? Did it burn to the ground? Did it stay in the kitchen? And it's usually only the ones that are newsworthy.

01:05:20 Erin: I don't know if you listened to episode 26 with Monica, the one I've already mentioned once earlier in the show, but she had her own experience. And prior to us going into her interview, she played this 911 tape where she called and it was her recording of her calling in distress, looking for support. And she has re-listened to this a hundred times. And every time it puts her right back in the zone of, oh, my gosh. We were all kind of knocked off our axis a little bit because we didn't know what to expect. But the one thing she forgot to say during her interview was how much that dispatcher changed her life and how she thought about her all the time. And she can't even imagine, like, she had known how challenging it was for them after meeting another dispatcher who was going through a similar situation as her. And she went out of her way to contact this dispatcher and the dispatcher turns around and said, you know, I think about you often and I'm so glad you reached out. 

01:06:27 Erin: And now they actually have this interesting like soulmate kind of connection where it was like the anniversary of the 911 call and she was having a really hard day and the dispatcher just shot her an email and said, I'm thinking about you. I hope you're having a good day. And it like changed everything. And so, it just goes to show that Monica did not stop thinking about the dispatcher, and the dispatcher didn't stop thinking about her, and it did make this big difference for both of them to be able to see it through kind of together, even though it wasn't together. But yeah, I think that it's so beautiful that she was able to acknowledge the dispatcher. Yeah, it's a really, really cool story. But again, it's like re-hearing that call over and over and over again doesn't change. It's still equally as challenging to hear it every time.

01:07:21 Jessica: I will tell you that I probably won't even listen to this podcast. My husband will have to make me, but all of us dispatchers just don't like to hear ourselves. I don't, I don't know why. We, nobody likes to hear themselves, but like, I, I was on the news a couple of weeks ago and I, I still haven't even watched the interview all the way through because I just don't want, and that's like, I don't know if that's a dispatcher thing or everybody, but, and we just don't like to hear ourselves because it does make us think of what we've gone through.

01:07:51 Erin: Well, we are also our own worst critics. It took a minute. Now I don't even care, but yeah, it even took me a minute, I and Cin a minute to get past just listening to herself.

01:08:03 Cinnamon: I had a complex from having Invisalign where I just felt like I lisped all the time and now I'm like, who cares? If you catch it, you catch it. Erin, am I allowed to ask my last little question? Okay. And this is more self-serving. But I wanted to kind of go back around when it comes to, you know, I told you before, I had had a training where a dispatcher said, you know, a lot of what you shared, it didn't feel like it applied to me, because most of my trauma is auditory. And so, can you kind of like, help me understand when it is that post-traumatic stress? I'm not talking about PTSD. I'm just talking about the stress that happens afterwards that like, drop. What does it look like when all the auditory is what keeps like, replaying. And you had mentioned something about the screams really get to you. But I would assume there's... That may be the top, but there's other things.

01:09:14 Jessica: Oh, this is a hard one. I don't even know where to begin. Like I said, yeah. Because you do, you get this own picture in your head of what's going on. You place your own family in that position. Anybody with kids, you know, if something happens to a child on a phone call, like that's exactly who you picture. And to not, there's a whole other thing. There's a technology where we could video call with 911 callers. I have a little bit of an old school mentality about that. I don't think I want dispatchers watching that because we can already disassociate enough to move on. quickly. I don't know that. Of course, the companies are like, well, it'll help your mental health because you can see what's going on. I don't believe that. I can't even imagine being a police officer or firefighter because they have to see what we don't. You know, we're painting a picture for them. But eight times out of ten, what picture we draw for them isn't even what's going on anyway. I mean, usually, our caller is more you know, they describe this scene and then they get there and that's not even close to what's going on. It's a lot less. But I just think that having no video or picture can help to move on. I don't know. That's a hard one for me, honestly.

01:10:40 Cinnamon: So if I asked you in the aftermath, are you doing things that we see out of other first responders? Like, did I do anything wrong? Could I have done anything different? I should have saved X, Y, and Z. 

01:10:56 Jessica: That happens all the time. You know, with all the calls that we have had in the last couple years, you know, we had an officer killed in action a couple years ago. And I know the dispatchers that dealt with that were like, what could we have taken the call differently initially and done something differently? Any 911 call, I mean, I've taken a call recently that involved CPR instructions and me even, I was like, could I have done anything different? And that's just really hard. I mean, we do, we have a medical protocol for a reason. But I think that we still if something negative happens, we're just like, what could we have done any different? 

01:11:33 Jessica: And I think the problem lies in seeing other dispatchers getting in trouble these days. You know, they didn't do a call correctly and four people died in a washed out creek or something like that. And then they're, you know, then it reflects back on us like, oh, my gosh, did I skip something like that before? Has that happened to me? And I just didn't catch it. And I don't know how to ever solve that. Because I, I'm telling you just the other week that's happened to me. I gave CPR instructions and I'm like, man, did I do it right? Did I really cause that or was there nothing I can do anyway?

01:12:10 Erin: The only thing I can see that could solve it is like, have a robot do it. AI do it, because honestly, you all are human beings. Dispatch or not, every human being second guesses themselves. Especially when something hard happens. And, you know, it's like when my friend's daughter passed away, took her own life, I barely had a relationship with this young girl, but I was like, I could have helped her. If she would have just talked to me, I understood her life and what she was going through. And I think that's such a, and that's not, I mean, obviously, maybe I could have, but probably not, because I didn't. I didn't get to talk to her. And so, but that's such a human thing to go to is like, man, could I have done something differently? So I think the only solution is don't have human beings do the job if you don't want us to have feelings about stuff, you know? 

01:13:00 Cinnamon: Can you imagine if we had little robots with hoses going and putting out fires and taking all the phone calls and then writing you a ticket and, you know? I don't think we can ever expect there to be compassion and humanity in this job and also have the fallout of the other side of that compassion and humanity is that these are real people oftentimes having the worst day of their lives. And, you know, where I always, I use the term scope of experience. When it's dispatch, fire, police, you all are privy to, I don't want to say have the luxury or the privilege, but you're aware of some of the worst things that can happen to a human and that other humans can do to each other. 

01:13:57 Cinnamon: And when you know that stuff, stuff that other people wouldn't even fathom, it's going to affect you. And that has to be taken into consideration. Like you said, when legally people are getting hung up on things, and we're not exempt from that in this area. I mean, we can make eye contact and we know what we're talking about. And I think I made Erin cut it out of another episode. It makes it harder to recruit and retain people when they're getting punished for being human. And you, you've got an angry family that wants to point a finger, but God, nobody says, I'm going to sit down in this chair and take these calls and sabotage it. Everyone's doing the best that they can. That is the end of my questions.

01:14:56 Erin: They were lovely questions. But thank you so much for your time. And I want to know, is there anything that you feel like was missed? Because I know that sometimes that happens.

01:15:09 Jessica: No, I mean, we could keep going for hours. But no–  

01:15:15 Cinnamon: I know. I'm like, can we hang out with Jesse some more? 

01:15:18 Jessica: I have to buy a car after this. So you don't want to. Actually, I was going to bring that up. You can cut this out. So, I don't know if you'll ever do a spouse episode, but this will be a good example of how traumatizing it can be as a firefighter's wife. My brand new car was stolen a couple of weeks ago in the middle of the night from the dealership. Long story. My husband was at work and a deputy is at my house ringing the bell at 2 a.m.

01:15:51 Erin: Oh, Jesus. Come on. They should know better. 

01:15:54 Jessica: And I know how they will come and tell me if something happens to my husband. And talk about traumatizing. I thought he was dead. I literally went into like a shock that he, the deputy told me that it was just my car. I kept asking the same question over and over because I was like, still processing that my husband wasn't dead. So yeah, if you ever want to do an episode about spouse, I will have plenty of experience and talking about hearing mayday calls, of calls that husbands or yeah, husbands are on, not just myself, but dispatchers who there are significant others being shot at. So it's crazy to be a dispatcher and have a spouse that you're dispatching for. But– 

01:16:44 Erin: That must kind of emphasize why maybe it is good that you can't see it. Yeah.

01:16:51 Jessica: Yeah, I mean, luckily, you know, I'm in Clermont County and he is in Hamilton County. But at one point we were in the same county and I have multiple dispatchers who are married to officers or dating officers or firefighters. So that's just an interesting side to dispatch as well. But– 

01:17:10 Cinnamon: Yeah. So I want to add and then cut it and then we'll close. So when I first started doing this, I thought I was fine. And I did not notice how much it was affecting me because I was getting exposed to things I didn't hadn't thought of yet, right? Like outside my scope of experience. And I, my husband finally pulled me aside and he was like, you need to either go talk to a therapist or you have to stop doing this. Because what I was doing was every time I got home, I would yell for him. And if he didn't answer, I would panic because I thought that he was dead somewhere in the house. And if I didn't go find him immediately or get him to respond, that I was going to have to explain how my husband could have been saved, but died in the basement. Because I didn't go check. 

01:18:06 Cinnamon: And then in addition to that, and this made me think of it because you were talking specifically about your husband being in a different county, the way my husband came home at the time, he was going through your husband's department area. And I kept having this visual of him getting into a car accident and getting ejected out the front window and getting... There's a particular big blue sign on the side of the road right there. And I was envisioning him getting ejected and hitting that sign and cutting his head. I mean, it was like super detailed. And it was just like, I didn't even realize that it was happening. And so he was like, okay, this isn't going to work. Because I was freaking him out, too. Because every day I was like screaming in hysterics until he answered. And then I'm like, oh, okay, we're fine. And he's like. What was that about? So yeah, that's why I had that question around, like, do you visualize the scene even if you're not there? Because I know that I do it when I hear the stories. So I wondered if that was similar.

01:19:19 Erin: And yes, we do want to have a spouse episode. It's already on our list to do. We want to have a wives roundtable. We would love to have you on if you would be interested to get the take from the wives. So it's like not only are you a first responder, but you're the wife of a first responder. And we think that that would be super fantastic for our listeners. So thank you for reaching out to us. 

01:19:45 Jessica: Thank you for having me. 

01:19:47 Erin: Good luck on the car hunt. Cinnamon may or may not be on the same journey, but we'll talk about that on another episode.

01:19:54 Jessica: Yeah, we'll have a whole separate episode for that.

01:19:57 Cinnamon: That might be over coffee.

01:19:58 Jessica: Yeah.

01:20:27 Erin: Thank you for joining us for today's episode of After the Tones Drop. Today's show has been brought to you by Whole House Counseling. As a note, After the Tones Drop is for informational purposes only and does not constitute for medical or psychological advice. It is not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Please contact a local mental health professional in your area if you are in need of any assistance. You can also visit afterthetonesdrop.com and click on our resources tab for an abundance of helpful information. And we would like to give a very special thank you and shout out to Vens Adams, Yeti, and Sonda for our show's music.