Solving Crimes, Healing Minds: With Edward Curtis

EP36: Solving Crimes, Healing Minds

00:00:00 Ed: I'm a full-time police officer. I talked with a victim witness person years ago and she always liked how I dealt with victims. She would always tell me you just have that social worker vibe. And eventually I was looking for a degree to look and see where I was going to transition to after I finished leasing and got the masters of social work. Of course, I'm a police officer, so I'm used to solving people's problems in five minutes. That's what we do. We go in there, solve all their family problems and then we're to the next thing. I'm like, "Wow, how am I going to spend an hour with somebody? What am I going to do with that?" 

00:00:34 Ed: But it's been so rewarding. I think when we go through a significant trauma, we see everybody's heads turn toward us, whether it's administration, social media, our families, our fellow officers. Everything turns towards us and we're questioning ourselves constantly. A huge thing is just normalizing this. You're going to be different. This is going to affect you. It's a normal response to an abnormal event. You're going to have these reactions and it's okay. 

00:01:10 Cinnamon: It's the first responder, the first to get the call, the first on scene greeted by God knows what pushed beyond the limits that they don't even set. Then what happens? You're listening to After the Tones drop. We're your hosts. I'm Cinnamon, a first responder trauma therapist who founded our practice after seeing the need for specialized care following a local line of duty death. 

00:01:36 Erin: And I'm Erin, I'm a first responder integration coach. 

00:01:41 Cinnamon: We help first responders receive transformational training, therapy and coaching. 

00:01:46 Erin: Now we come to you to explore, demystify and de-stigmatize mental health and wellness for first responders.

00:01:55 Cinnamon: Our show brings you stories from real first responders, the tools they've learned, the changes they've made and the lives they now get to live.

00:02:11 Erin: A quick heads up before we start. We want to acknowledge that some of the content we discuss on our show can be triggering for some listeners. Some of our episodes may touch upon themes like traumatic experiences, PTSD, suicide and line of duty deaths. We understand that these topics are sensitive and might evoke difficult emotions. If you are currently struggling with your mental health or have experienced traumatic events recently, listen with caution Now. If you're ready to proceed, let's begin. 

00:02:43 Cinnamon: All right, we are live and in action. We are here today with our new friend, Ed. Hi, Ed, welcome. 

00:02:51 Ed: Hi, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. 

00:02:54 Erin: We are so excited to have someone who is a dabbler in various areas, an area that we obviously really appreciate, which is the clinician side, but for our listener, also the area of law enforcement. So what you're up to is really cool, really, I would even venture to say different and exciting. 

00:03:18 Cinnamon: Rare.

00:03:19 Erin: Yeah, rare. So Cinnamon and I, we get pumped up, especially talking to people who are passionate about first responder mental health. Obviously, we have this show, but let me just take a second and kind of introduce a little bit about you, and then you can fill in all the gaps for us. How's that sound? 

00:03:35 Ed: That sounds great yeah. 

00:03:37 Erin: Awesome. So, like I said, we have Ed Curtis on with us today and he is actually an active law enforcement officer with 20 whole years of experience and his current role as corporal, he is a shift supervisor in the patrol division, answering calls for service and community relations. But because it sounds like he probably doesn't have nearly enough downtime, he just decided it takes that little tiny bit of downtime and go back to school. 

00:04:04 Erin: And Ed graduated with a master's of social work in 2022 and now works as a licensed grief and trauma therapist. He is also EMDR trained, which we've talked about EMDR as well as ART on our show. So that's really freaking awesome. But then, on top of that, he has a bachelor's degree in history and political science from the University of Pittsburgh at Bradford. So you are just a gentleman that is full of different flavors, huh? 

00:04:35 Ed: Yeah, yeah, yeah, the history degree makes me pretty good at trivial pursuits, so yeah, that helps there. 

00:04:42 Erin: It's great. My dad's a history major. I'm like what do you do with that? He's like no things, but I mean what kind of you know, but that's always fun. 

00:04:50 Cinnamon: Go play trivial pursuit or trivia night at the bar. 

00:04:53 Ed: That's exactly yeah. 

00:04:54 Cinnamon: That's what you do with that?

00:04:56 Ed: Yeah.

00:04:58 Cinnamon: Well, and he also has a family. 

00:04:59 Ed: I do, yeah, yeah, my wife and I have been married 28 years and we have three grown daughters that are- 

00:05:04 Erin: God bless you

00:05:05 Ed: The odd year this year. So they're 27, 25 and 23. They're all out of the house doing their thing. Yeah, really proud of them. Two are married, so it's a busy life, you know. Like you said, I'm a full time police officer. We work the 12 hour schedule, so I am days and nights. I still do all the shifts, but it freed me up to do some. 

00:05:26 Ed: I had some open days and those days I talked with a victim witness person years ago and she always liked how I dealt with victims, especially with domestic violence, and she was a social worker and she would always tell me you just have that social worker vibe. So I kind of put it in the back of my mind. And eventually I was looking for a degree to kind of look and see where I was going to transition to after I was finished leasing and I got the masters of social work. 

00:05:50 Ed: And even getting into therapy was kind of like an off thing because I was interviewing Lisa's old for our system team, our critical instance stress management team, and she's a licensed clinical social worker, runs her own practice called Grief Relief, and I was like, "Hey, afterwards I said I'm about to get my degree and social work, wondering what to do with it. I like to talk with you." She goes, "Well, I have a job for you," and it was to do individual therapy. 

00:06:16 Ed: Now, of course, I'm a police officer, so I'm used to solving people's problems in five minutes. That's what we do. We go in there, solve all their family problems and then we're off to the next thing and taking care of business. I'm like, "Wow, how am I going to spend an hour with somebody? What am I going to do with that?" But I started doing it and it's just been so rewarding. Since I'm part time I probably have about 20 clients. About a third of those are first responders or former military. 

00:06:42 Ed: We do a lot of trauma work with them. It's been so good because especially when dealing with first responders, it's such a unique personality that you're dealing with. You know when you're trying to establish trust in that and having the experience, it really helps me connect with them easier. Build that rapport in order to try to work through whatever issue they're trying to deal with at the time. 

00:07:04 Ed: And then the funny part is on the job, I have first responders coming to me now and it's not just like hey, how are you doing, it's like hey, I got this problem and it's something that never happened before. So it's been interesting to make that connection. They see where I'm coming from now and they have confidence that I can hold space for them and the established rapport with them. So it's just been rewarding in all sorts of directions, I couldn't even imagine.

00:07:28 Erin: That's outstanding, and I imagine the length of rapport building is much shorter than it might be for someone who doesn't understand the culture. And Cinnamon and I, of course we understand the culture, but yet we are not out there on the streets like you have been, and so I imagine that that kind of like tightens things up a little bit for you and lets you get into the nitty-gritty details a little bit faster. You said something like I was told I have a social work vibe.  I think it's what you said. So I'm like, "What, what? What vibe is that?"

00:08:01 Ed: When I was dealing with victims, especially with domestic violence victims, I always had this idea, because it's so hard in these situations you're trying to get them to testify. They're scared of this person. They have so much to lose in testifying to these cases because a lot of times there's financial, emotional support that comes, even though it's an abusive relationship. And I always felt conflicted. Am I going to turn into the bully? For you know, am I going to turn into the person forcing them to testify and things like that? 

00:08:27 Ed: So it was a softer approach of hey, you know, this is what's going to help you, this is what you need to do, and really trying to speak to them, understanding their trauma and also understanding the difficulty and it's not just a cut and dry that you want this person to stop abusing you. If they're the father of your children, you depend on them financially. That's not an easy thing to break. So, understanding all that and talking with them, spending time with them, that's where that vibe came in. 

00:08:54 Erin: That's outstanding. So tell me a little bit, why did this even matter to you? I mean, obviously you had kind of said something about going to therapy yourself, so obviously there was something that got you to the point that you thought I might need some outside support with this whole situation. Can you tell us a little bit about what got you there? Thanks.

00:09:17 Ed: Yeah, sure, that was like a huge thing for me. It was to the point where when you go through a lot of trauma and you're dealing with a lot of stress, right, you get angry, you get aggressive, you depersonalize people. And when you're a police officer sometimes, it can almost be a benefit, because here you are, you're the hard charger, you're out there making all the arrests, you're out there doing all the traffic stops, but it's not coming from a good place, it's coming from this place of you know, I'm just stressed out, I just want to push this out right. So that was good. 

00:09:47 Ed: When I was working, it worked out well because I was aggressive, I got arrests and you know it wasn't like I was out there getting complaints or use of forceS, but I was still out there being an aggressive officer. Well, then you gotta go home and when I started taking that attitude home, I have a wonderful wife that said that's not flying here, you need to figure this out, because you can't bring this home, you can't bring this home to our kids, you can't bring this home to me. And it was. 

00:10:12 Ed: I was just in this attitude, I was just in this space that I didn't realize I was . And going to therapy, it really allowed me to separate things out, really figure out what was going on, and it's not just about what the emotions are, but what's motivating these emotions. Where is this coming from? How am I getting to this point? And that's what really got me to the point where I was able to take things on now, able to separate. This isn't about my wife.

00:10:39 Ed:  If I'm coming home frustrated, it's not about my wife or my kids. It's about whatever frustration I had beforehand and being able to analyze those and put a name to it. That really helped me out. And I just got so much out of it. And it's like you know this guy, I could call him tomorrow If something came up. I could call him tomorrow. I say, "Hey, you remember me?" And he'd be like, "Yeah, come on in." And I did. I actually did wind up calling him. 

00:11:01 Ed: I went through a pretty traumatic thing with the suicide and you know I was able to call him up and you know we were able to. Just really, we already done the groundwork. So it was a point when dealing with those traumas that I was able to take those on and put them in their place a lot easier because I'd done that work early on. That's kind of my cause too. I kind of leads into another thing of when it comes to officer wellness. 

00:11:22 Ed: Taking it on early, taking it on before you're completely overwhelmed can help you establish that groundwork. When you are overwhelmed, when you do get that trauma, that's just too much for you. You've already got a basis there to really work with. So that's and that's what I like to do with my therapy is really set up groundwork that if anything does come up that they're ready for it, they can handle it. 

00:11:43 Cinnamon: I'm going to scroll back a little bit because I think you said something and we can understand, but I think there's value in maybe breaking down that clinical term. You had mentioned that part of what led you into therapy was, you know, you were noticing on the job you were able to depersonalize. 

00:12:04 Cinnamon: When you come home, you were... I like to say, like you weren't switching houses right, so like, whether it be the fire station, the police station and then your house, house, you were not transitioning in terms of attitude and gentility. Maybe it might be a good word, but can you talk a little bit more about what you mean when you say that you were depersonalizing people? 

00:12:30 Ed: I think it's just something where you just don't want to see the other side of things. You just see where your focus is, what your idea of policing is, that this is what needs to happen, and you don't see the other person as a person. That can be difficult sometimes when it comes to that, because when we do see people as people, there's extra responsibility there. You know when we're arresting a mom, when we're arresting a dad, you know you're going to see them as people and there's going to be conflict there. 

00:12:56 Ed: So a lot of times when we start getting jaded or just have too much of the job, we start to not see that to protect ourselves. And then I was taking that home. I was protecting myself at home. I wanted to be the guy in charge. I just wanted to make the decisions. I wanted to have my space where I just came home and sat and I didn't want anybody to bother me. You know I wanted everything on my terms and didn't see the people around me having needs. You know, and when that happens at home, forget about it. That's when it's a bad situation, when you're not recognizing those needs at home, and that's probably what I need to work on. 

00:13:27 Cinnamon: Wow, I'm so sorry that your family and you went through that, but for you to be able to share it in that way and recognize that you know. What stood out to me was when you said I didn't see my family members as having needs in the same way that if I felt the weight of arresting a parent in front of their child, it would make my job harder and I would have this emotional conflict, so I just stopped. But then when you don't switch that back on, which I like to say, those are things like turning the Titanic around then all of a sudden now you're depersonalizing family and you're just the pack leader and you forget who the actual characters are of the people behind you. 

00:14:15 Cinnamon: You also mentioned the idea of doing the groundwork. Like you coming in for a cumulative stress issue allowed you to utilize that same therapist and feel that level of comfort when a critical incident happened. So can you talk a little bit more about like I don't want to say proactive therapy, because you definitely had a significant issue when you went in, but it may not feel like that same emergent need, or we hear a lot. My wife made me come I'm not really sure why I'm here versus like I saw some shit and I know it's affecting me and I need to work it out. 

00:14:59 Ed: I think, when we go through a significant trauma, that we see everybody's heads turn toward us, whether it's administration, social media, our families, our fellow officers. Everything turns towards us and we're questioning ourselves constantly. Actually, my brother's a police officer too. He's a lieutenant over in the next town over and he says that it's strange because sometimes the events we get the rewards for are some of the ones we're most conflicted by, because it's a traumatic event we're doing this act, that we've done things, but we could have done it better. 

00:15:34 Ed: So in establishing groundwork, it's knowing that, all right, well, seeing admin, they have their job to do. Social media social media being able to separate that, knowing what you can control and knowing what you can't control, right? I mean, that's like the hugest part of anything. And knowing that everybody does have their idea of what this is about. But it doesn't necessarily mean it's about you. 

00:15:58 Ed: Getting ego out of the way was a huge part of my journey. Just pulling myself away and saying that this isn't about me, they're not doing it, because, whatever, getting your ego out of the way, not feeling like you have to defend yourself all the time that was like the hugest part of it. So that's that groundwork. So when that trauma comes in, you're already in a space where you kind of have that sense of relaxation, that sense of serenity almost that you're not operating at a level way up high that puts you up over the top. You're operating at a lower level. So when that trauma comes in, it's within that tolerance of being able to handle things. You're operating at that lower level. 

00:16:36 Erin: So you're not already elevated, you're able to come in from a more neutral space instead of already coming in high, and then it's like I'm about tapped out, I'm about maxed out, and then that's when things go sideways. Wow.

00:16:50 Ed: Yeah, when you think about the whole trauma brain idea where we're in that flight or flight mode and then we have a cognitive that's up at the highest level where we can actually talk with somebody. As police officers, our survival is in that flight or flight mode. So we're constantly in that idea of we actually put ourselves there to keep us safe.

00:17:08 Ed:  And it's being able to not feel trapped there, being able to know that we're there and how to get ourselves back up, that we can think cognitively again, we can actually propose a thought rather than like this person's out to get me or hurt me or kill me, being able to actually relate to that person. So it's being able to move within that and not letting your body just do that for you. 

00:17:30 Cinnamon: Again, I'm going to rewind, I'm going to talk a little bit about what you mean when you say window of tolerance. And the reason I think that this is important in breaking this down and Erin hates when I explain my questions because I get a little wordy, but I think the thing that I find important about understanding that is you use the phrase figuring out what you can control and what you can't control, and I feel like we encounter a lot of folks who maybe are able to know the difference but don't know how to not be upset or angry over the things they can't control, right?

00:18:06 Cinnamon: I may not approve of the council or the township board's choice in our new chief, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to be mad about it. So what's that extra value beyond being able to say I can't control it and I'm going to choose to tolerate it without getting worked up over it all the time? 

00:18:33 Ed: I think about as a first responder. That's what we spend our lives doing is being in control. Coming into a chaotic scene, controlling it and then stepping away, and it gives us this sense of that we're in control of everything. But as soon as we leave that scene, we're not in control anymore. We're not in control of what happened to get us to that scene, whether it was that family flight, those relationships, okay. But yet we have this idea oh, I have control. I'm always in control because I come in and I just tell people what to do and I arrest them if they don't listen to me. We just get that false sense of I can control any room I walk into. 

00:19:04 Ed: But it's not true. I mean, for the moment we do. If we had to handle that moment for a day or a week, there's no way we'd be able to handle that room. But for that five minutes or 10 minutes that we're in for that call, yeah, we're in complete control. So when these other things happen around us, we think, oh, I should be able to control all these things. 

00:19:23 Ed: And again, that's ego. That's ego telling us that I'm number one, I'm in charge and everybody else is wrong. That doesn't listen to me, once we get our ego out of the way, we realize things can happen around us and we don't have to be involved in it. Knowing what you can control, knowing what you can't, there's so many things that are outside of your control. The one thing that we do have control of is, of course, our attitude and how we... and a lot of times too, when I talk with first responders, we talk about when something happens and we have a reaction, and that's that emotional. 

00:19:53 Ed: That's when the ego gets involved and we have the bad things. It's about stretching that out, stretching that reaction out, that we actually can contemplate for a minute and actually take an action, actually do something that we want to do, rather than just react to that incident. That's kind of getting ego out of the way and not just going right after something, but being able to contemplate and say, well, do I even need to get involved in this at all? Is this even my fight? Do I need to get stressed out about this? Is there anything I can change, which a lot of times we can't? So it's knowing that too. 

00:20:21 Erin: Yeah, and something that I've been kind of learning lately in my own evolution, my own emotional and personal evolution, is that I operate and I feel real confident when I'm doing my job. I feel like that is my jam. I am quote, unquote in control, which I'm not in control, but it's like I trust myself in those moments. It's this intuitive side, and I feel well equipped. My therapist calls it my manager, and so whenever stuff is starting to hit the fan, whether it's at home or at work or whatever, my manager will show up and get some stuff done and handle things. 

00:21:02 Erin: And what I'm learning is that I never have control. I never have control, but I do have this side of me that I feel very confident in. You know, and maybe it is ego as well, but I do feel confident in that space. And so it's that idea of even at work you technically don't have control because anything can turn on a dime, attitudes, whatever but that you feel confident in that space, like you're trained, you know that you are well equipped to handle the situation, and so it's like I guess I continuously have been hearing is this idea of control, and so I don't want people to think for even one second that we can control every environment around us, even when we are at work. 

00:21:41 Erin: But we might be able to feel confident in that, because often people feel like, well, as long as I can control this situation, I'll be fine. Well, you're going to like freaking, really be disappointed because shit happens, you know. So let's just think about getting you into a place where you feel confident that you can adapt in that environment, versus I can control this, you know. Anyway, so that just got me thinking about the things I've started to notice, about where I feel confident, and I imagine you feel the same too. 

00:22:13 Ed: Oh yeah, because you go on those calls and you're like, "Oh, I got this, this scene is completely under control." And then all of a sudden it's just going completely south on you because of something you did not expect, you thought you had completed, and it's like what are we doing? What's going on? What's happening right now? I didn't just see it going around you. So, yeah, and I think you're exactly right, I hadn't thought about it that way before. 

00:22:32 Ed: But yeah, it's about establishing a sense of control, not really control. It's about this idea that I've got this, you know. And I think a lot of times too, when first responders, when they're outside the job and outside that call, they still have that sense of I got this, I can do this. It's like you know, yeah, you have all this responsibility on the job. You do not have that much responsibility off the job. You can lean on other people, you can lean into your relationships. You don't have to be the one and only in that, you know, and that's in separating that out as a large part of separating the work, the work on life environments. 

00: 23:14 Erin: Hey there, listener, if you could ask any question or freely talk about any challenge related to being on the job and no one would know what would you say? We are excited to share about our confidential hotline that we created just for you. Through this confidential hotline, you can leave a message, sharing a success, a struggle or simply ask a question. We will spotlight calls and offer feedback and insight from a licensed therapist and a certified coach who work exclusively with first responders. You can access our hotline voicemail by visiting afterthetonestrop.com and clicking the voicemail tab. Additionally, you can join our mailing list if you'd like, or easily follow us on Facebook and Instagram for all the most recent updates. You know the drill. Telephone, tell a friend, tell a first responder. 

00:24:18 Cinnamon: I'm listening to you and I'm having all of these idea bubbles pop up that I wish you could read, because you had mentioned that the original reason you went to seek therapy was that unhealthy dynamic in your household. And I think about all of our first responders who, on their day off, play the role of primary childcare provider. And when mostly men will come home and they're like this house is a wreck, like all you had to do was watch an infant, how did you not get all this done? Or being angry. I always talk about the foyer, like the backpacks and the shoes are everywhere in the foyer. 

00:25:03 Cinnamon: And it's like if I can handle a situation in somebody else's home and get everybody to do what I tell them to do in five minutes, why can't this happen in my home over eight or twelve hours? Why am I coming home to this wreck? Or why are my kids not just obediently following my directive? And how that false sense of control in that five-minute environment can easily cause problems over there in the actual house where you're there for five minutes. Or you have this bizarre, unrealistic expectation of your spouse of like why they didn't do it and the breakdown that we see when they are that primary provider on the day off and they're like why is [Mr. Momming] so hard? Like yeah, cuz you do it for more than five minutes. 

00:25:57 Ed: Right, and it's the short end of the stick on that. Because what do we do? We walk home and you think, oh, you think you had a stressful day. And then how do you respond to that? And unless you, as a first responder, to say, hey, this is where I'm at, this is what I chose, I could not be able to do this job without this person in my life to take care of kids and household and stuff like that. 

00:26:15 Ed: And I remember, you know, when our kids were young, they were close together and then we were working eight-hour shifts and I always seemed to work two to ten when it was back to school time. And you know, my wife's trying to get kids in new grades and she's a teacher at a nursery school. She's trying to get her class started and I was absentee, I was out. So I would come home at 10 o'clock, boom. Then this is what I'm dealing with. And we get to go out there. We have all the fun and you know the stress and and really, at the end of the day, we get to get a lot of that stress relief, don't we?

00:26:43 Ed: By going out there and making the arrest, getting into car chases where are you we're actually able to use that energy up. So they just get stuck with that stress and just build, build, build, build, build. What do they even do with it? They don't have time to effectively get rid of that stress, so it's just building with them. So one of the interesting things we started doing at our academy we bring in families of officers that are in the academy and just talk about these things. We talk about hyper vigilance, we talk about internal investigations, we talk about burnout and sleep schedules and what happens to officers.

00:27:15 Ed: So that they can have these talks now what this job is going to look like when they are coming home. And it's like, well, you know. And basically it's telling the spouses that, well, we already know that we're gonna come home this way we can get a held accountable to that. It's not on you to kind of shape your life around that. It's up for us to push through that tiredness or that stress and be that person we need. We need them to be. 

00:27:40 Ed: One time I talked to the client and they just want to try to push through to the end of their day. You know that was the goal line when they were finished work. I said what about this? I said what about the goal line being after dinner, when you sit down at night? That's the goal line. That's where you need to push through. 

00:27:52 Ed: Gets them through coming home, talking, spending time with their family, and then when they sit down, then that's the finish line. It's not just they get home from work and then just fall apart, you know. So sometimes we need to do that. We need to push that finish line forward that we can have that time with our family. That it's, that it's good family time. 

00:28:10 Erin: Yeah, because by the time, if the end of the day is when you clock out, then you are checked out. You are choosing to be checked out once you get home in some capacity. I mean it might not be like an actual intellectual choice, but gosh, then you're missing so much opportunity and not that work doesn't matter, and I get it a lot of us helpers. It's like work never stops, we're just it's, we're in some kind of motion, forward motion. 

00:28:37 Erin: But to be able to be present as much as humanly possible for your family is so important because those, especially with kids, those times are so fleeting. So I love that you say, hey, let's raise the bar a little bit and say after dinner, then you can go sit in your lazy boy or whatever. 

00:28:58 Ed: Yeah, whatever that is, yeah.

00:28:58 Cinnamon: It also makes sense in the context of, you know, we hear a lot of first responders that are closer to retirement, or our retirees with adult children, talking about how much of their kids' lives they missed because of their work schedule. And it's very easy to, I think, feel guilt and regret when it's all said and done. But what does it mean when, even when you're not working, when you are home, you are making that choice to be checked out and it is in the moment it feels necessary or appropriate or there, and that's all good and well to regret later down the road? 

00:29:49 Cinnamon: But what happens to the family dynamic when I don't expect my first responder parent to show up to sporting events or when I get inducted to this honor society or whatever that event is in the child's life, because work sucks so much of that time and it's not flexible, because we know over time need hours, manpower coverage, whatever. But then when you are there to know that you're opting to miss it because you don't feel like you have any bandwidth left, but really what? It is a choice to end your bandwidth about three hours early, too soon. 

00:30:30 Ed: Yeah. I listened to your recent podcast about aces. It really struck me about how you said it's not about necessarily growing up in an abusive relationship, but that child having an adverse experience. And I never thought about it that way, that it's just how that child is viewing that experience. It really makes the difference. It's not just necessarily that you're abusive. You know parents try to get it right. But wow, I mean, how many of those adverse experiences Can we avoid by being on, by being ready to deal with our wife and kids at that time, that we're just prepared for it and not reacting but taking that step. 

00:31:07 Ed: And I think it's interesting now seeing, like, with the generational change in first responders at least where I'm seeing it, is there more apt to take time off. They're more apt to take the leave when it comes to kids being born. They're more apt to take off for this, the sporting event. And I'm an old guy you know, I'm a dog and I still can't, obviously, by how it's busy I stay, I can't stop working and that digging, digging, digging, digging. But I think that's really changed. 

00:31:28 Ed: I think people have changed that idea of what it means to be to work and that work is more for that home environment. I see it change it. I'm hoping it keeps going that you know they're… We're changing these priorities and concentrating on officer wellness and allowing people to have leave to spend time with families and stuff. I think that's all important things because you know it's a hard job. It's our job, not only on the person doing the work but especially the families that are at home. 

00:31:57 Cinnamon: So what would you say to that old dog, the old dog that's complaining about this new generation that's coming in? They're not as committed, they're lazy, they are sensitive, they want to cut an umbilical cord when their kids are born, because I think that's... there's this weird breakdown between generations and I like to challenge that old dog thinking. I even said recently at a conference, when somebody brought it up, they were like, "Well, you know, do you think that these younger folks are gonna have a higher A score simply because basically they're [overlap] is what the question was. 

00:32:31 Cinnamon: And you know, I turned it around and I was like, "I think we're all jealous. Why didn't we think of this first?" These guys are like just cuz you've been here longer doesn't mean that you can treat me bad, because you were gifted with being born sooner. So how do we help the older guys where it doesn't feel like an insult to them but it also allows them to open their mind to the value of what these younger generations are doing, rather than just being so offended by it or irritated by it? 

00:33:07 Ed: You hit the nail on the head. It's about well, that's the way we've always done it. You know I had to go through this crap. Why shouldn't they have to suffer as rookies too? But it doesn't work. I mean, of course, we're experiencing the... that gets into the whole idea of who wants to become a police officer right now. It's very they're very slim pickings, right. So this idea of you know you're gonna come into a job, work 25 years and retire, that's not a glamorous thought for a younger generation. 

00:33:34 Ed: That's looking at changing jobs every couple of years and they like the flexibility you know. So if you want this profession to progress, it has to progress towards this idea of bringing these people in and giving them incentive to want to do this job. The people that are coming into this job really have purpose now. You know they really want to do it. You know it's like what do we always do? It's like break them down to build them back up again. You know, make them hate life. That's what this job is gonna do to you anyways. 

00:34:02 Ed: You make them hate it sooner. It's just a backwards thinking now, and that's what I say. It's like what? Look, I'm in the old system, but at the same time, I can appreciate why this new system is coming around. I can't put that down and that's how I talked to my fellow officers that feel that way too. You know, and there's not too many, at least in my area there's not too many left. It's funny, you know it's. It's even the small things. 

00:34:21 Ed: You know, you talk to the old officers and they'll tell you the years, months and days till they have to labor you can retire. I remember when I was like day one on the job and I thought about I had 24 years and 364 days ago. That was sad to hear. When I'm talking with younger officers, I always try to count up I have this many years on. That way, you're looking at the experience rather than I can't wait to be out the door because we need these guys to be able to say that, oh, I can make a career this, I can do this job for this long and still be happy. 

00:34:53 Cinnamon: So, speaking into that particular piece, with the counting up versus the counting down, do you have the opportunity to work with any retirees? Because I think that there's a lot of people on the job who have been counting there's how many days this, how many years, how many months and then there's a significant portion of them that are disappointed. They're like I finally have arrived at retirement and this is it. 

00:35:20 Ed: Yeah. 

00:35:20 Erin: Very anticlimactic. 

00:35:23 Ed: Yeah, I was just talking with a person that just has about as many years on the job as I do and we're talking about that. It's something that I'm kind of unboxing now where I think our purpose is when you're in human services, your purpose is tied into your job. When we're working with people, when you guys do therapy, your purpose is right there in front of you. When you get to retirement and then you do that retirement job and you're working security somewhere or you get the retirement, you don't have that same purpose that you had in your career. 

00:35:55 Ed: I think that's where a lot of people get disappointed is they have a good job, they have the retirement, but they don't have the purpose anymore. It's reworking that and figuring out what your purpose is, not just the job. Does the job serve the purpose of being able to spend time with your family? Does that doesn't necessarily have to be in the job, but does it serve a purpose somewhere else? I think that's where a lot of guys and again we talked about that finish line about the day I think people look to the finish line of retirement and they don't see beyond it. 

00:36:22 Ed: I kind of messed up. I thought I got into this therapy thing a little bit too early, because now I'm in this and I love it, but I still have a couple years to go before I retire. It's like I can't wait to get into this next part of my life. It's like I almost started this too early because I just I can't wait. It's figuring out that purpose, what's going to be next for you, because we're so young when we retire too. 

00:36:40 Ed: Now I started a little later. I didn't start till I was 33, so I'll retire at 57, but a lot of these guys retired in their 50s and that's like a whole other career that they could do. What is their purpose in that? And I think they have a harder time defining that because they've had this purpose for so long. 

00:36:56 Cinnamon: I think that what you just said also aligns with what we were talking about. The younger generation that are joining the first responder occupations is that does this job allows me financial security to spend time with my family, to give them a quality of life that secures me financially, maybe for retirement? And I would say, Erin and I struggle with this too, because our jobs are very purpose driven and I think even our spouses would be like oh my God, yeah. It's hard to have a conversation with us without us finding ways to like roll work into right and so reframing that Erin and I are in our 40s and this allows us to do a lot of things. 

00:37:45 Cinnamon: To me it's like oh, it allows me to shop more on Amazon. And Erin might be like it allows me the flexibility to not be out of my house nine to five so I can be with my children. But there has to be that other personal piece, because once that occupation-driven purpose, where it is literally the job of helping somebody get safe or find the bad guy or transform a relationship, if it doesn't tie in your own personal life, how do we lose our personal lives when we talk about our purpose? And yeah, you can't operate like that. We have some flexibility because we can do this job long after what somebody else may be retired, but you can't really put out fires and catch bad guys remotely.

00:38:32 Ed: Right. Yeah. 

00:38:33 Cinnamon: I love that you're so passionate about it now, though, even before you've retired, because I didn't even think where are you located exactly? Pennsylvania, somewhere, right yeah? 

00:38:44 Ed: Right outside of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. I work pretty much with clients in Central PA, but I can also do telehealth. I'm licensed throughout Pennsylvania so we do telehealth. So my clinical director is licensed in Maryland and then one of our therapists. We're all kind of first responder oriented. One of our other therapists is actually licensed through Massachusetts and I work for a company called Grief Relief. That's who we're with. 

00:39:10 Erin: And I will put that on our show notes. Okay, I want to make sure, because any connections we can get our listeners to culturally competent clinicians like we are all about that. But I really want to say real quick, the only reason I asked is because the fact that you're so passionate before you leave starts such a great path for the folks that are in your bubble to kind of have a different relationship with what it looks like with focusing on their mental health, because here you are gung ho like, oh, 20 years, and I'm so excited about all these things, and so to be able to change that culture before you book, it is so fantastic. 

00:39:46 Ed: Yeah, yeah, look, I've had the challenges. I've had the challenges of other first responders dealing with internal things, dealing with the job itself, and all. I've had all those stressors as the road goes. I mean, you can't escape it, but what you can escape is how much that's going to bring you down and how much it's going to affect your attitude and where you're going with that. Again, it's all about just what's my outlook on this. Am I learning from this or is it a punishment? And I'm trying to learn from a lot of things and I think that's what helps me stay focused on where I'm going. I feel like I'm learning a lot right now. 

00:40:18 Cinnamon: Erin, we may need to plan a trip to visit Ed because of course I had to pull it up on a map because I dropped central Pennsylvania, but he's very close to Hershey. 

00:40:31 Ed: Yes, Hershey Park, yep, we can work that out, yeah, yeah. Chocolate World.

00:40:36 Cinnamon: And not too far from Lancaster, which I'm from Amish Country, that would be like just rolling home 

00:40:38 Erin: Amish Country, Ohio. 

00:40:40 Cinnamon: I'm not Amish. 

00:40:46 Erin: I'm from Amish Country, Ohio, like not Amish.

00:40:47 Ed: very similar.

00:40:48 Erin: Just neighbors. 

00:40:51 Erin: Hey, there to all you fearless folks who've been tuning in to After the Tones drop. You know we've been dishing out some real deal mental health wisdom for our first responders and we need your help to keep it rolling. So here's the deal: Take a minute and do us a favor by leaving a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform. And listen, we're not expecting a novel here, just a few lines about what you're appreciating about the show, whether it's our interviews, perhaps the educational aspect or just our goofy humor and metaphor And your feedback. It's like the gasoline in our engine, fueling us to bring you more of the good stuff. So let's keep that siren wailing and those reviews pouring in. Thanks, we appreciate you. 

00:41:41 Erin: You're also a certified trainer for the officer's training commission. I mean, there's other things that you're doing. Can you tell us a little bit else about what you're doing? 

00:41:53 Ed: Yeah, so recently I got hooked in with. It's called MPOETC, it's a Municipal Police Officer's Training Commission and they do our updates for Pennsylvania and basically every officer has to take a series of classes each year to keep certified and pass tests. So the last couple of years I've been serving on committees with that, which has been very rewarding. It's meeting officers from all over the state talking about this. Last course I did was officer wellness, a little bit in my wheelhouse so I was able to do that. 

00:42:19 Ed: And this year I'm working on a committee on suicide by cop, which is interesting there because of the complications that come from that confronting a bad guy versus a sad guy and how that can complicate that response and how it affects the officer afterwards. So I've been doing that the last couple of years. Really enjoy that. I've been a team DARE officer for as long as I can remember, so working with kids and going into schools from kindergarten to high school and talk with them. I love doing that. 

00:42:49 Ed: Yeah, so it's. And again, it's keeping interest up in a career and changing interest. That's what can help you rather than just slogging through doing the same thing all the time. So we did some years with the forensic team. A couple of years, I did Internet Crimes Against Children, so I worked with, you know, joining the Internet online investigation. So that was an interesting part of my career. But yeah, there's a lot of stuff to deal with there, yeah, so it's been a lot of varied things. 

00:43:18 Cinnamon: That feels like something that one would probably only do best short term. Like we don't want to spend our whole career in Internet child crimes. That just sounds like you just might need to marry a therapist or have one move into the house doing that.

00:43:33 Ed: Yeah, why not like our Attorney General's office? They have like a unit, that's what they do, and I think it's like every six months or every year they have time set up with therapists just to talk about things and process. And yeah, because that's a very anytime you're dealing with stuff with kids and you have detectives' offices that deal with that and that's not coming into something, that's just stuff that's coming into your dealing with. That's a lot to deal with, that's a lot to process and again, we take it all as like, well, that's just part of the job, but it's not part of life, you know. It's not part of what normal people experience. So it's owning that and owning it does have an effect on you. 

00:44:13 Erin: Man, I feel like I should have my daughter listen just to that little part, because she's 10 and she thinks that we're the meanest people ever because we started blocking the internet, blocking YouTube, blocking all this stuff, and it's like we love you and it doesn't take long for somebody to just pop out of the woodwork and take advantage of a child and pretend like they're a child. And she just can't understand and I'm like listen, there's a whole slew of people out there trying to protect you from this right now. Besides your parents. And yeah it's so scary, oh my gosh. 

00:44:47 Ed: Well, you know, and that's interesting too with our world is that we see this different side that most people don't. They see the world as basically a safe place and you're working with people, your experiences, you're seeing these things that a lot of people don't see, you know, and that actually gets into like another thing. You know, when you deal with this, like the hyper vigilance, and deal with police officers being extra cautious with kids and stuff like that I think a lot of people in the world deal with when it comes to dangerous things, they deal with the probability of something happening. 

00:45:15 Ed: They think that it could happen, but odds are it won't. What if first responders deal with the possibility of something happening? So it's like, well, maybe one in a million chance, but it's like dumb and dumber. You're telling me there's a chance, you know, and it's like so we work within that and we're like, nope, I can't take that chance, this could happen. So that's a hard thing to turn on and off as well. 

00:45:40 Cinnamon: I'm dying over here. So you've hit two big points. One, I always say that most of us play the odds where first responders play the tragedy. 

00:45:46  Ed: Yes.

00:45:47  Cinnamon: Right? Even if it's not likely to happen, you don't know what I've seen when it has, and it ties back to when we first started this, the thing I caught was that you had three daughters and they were all adults. So it would not be inappropriate if we talked to them and find out what it is like to be a first responder daughter. Because it's like they don't get to leave the house, right, like, no, you are not driving in your boyfriend's, dad's '67 Corvette to prom. We're hiring an adult, sober chauffeur. And you're going in a limo, or no, you're not walking alone, or no, you're not doing this. And you know they feel even more victimized than Erin's 10 year old about what a buzzkill you are. 

00:46:39 Cinnamon: Or even wives or spouses who are like you don't have to be so hard like, let them live, let them go have a good time. And you're like, "Let me tell you what it's like to pick up a teenage brain matter off of the road on prom night." So how do you communicate that you had said earlier like not for the spouses to have to adapt to that bringing home the shitty part of the job. 

00:47:00 Cinnamon: But how do you communicate that to family members in a way that might be either it gets old for them and they just want you to loosen up, or it's unusual for them. Maybe it's a new relationship and maybe they have older stepchildren and that you're trying to like say, hey, I don't think you should allow that as a parent. How do you effectively convey that without just sounding like a buzz kill all the time? 

00:47:30 Ed: Yeah, my wife. She's a nursery school teacher forever. She's recently gone back to grad school to become a behavior analyst, so board certified behavior analyst. So she's always been really smart in knowing where I'm at with things. And the question is, she always asked me whenever it came down to what my daughter should do, what they shouldn't do. It's like she would always ask me where's this coming from?

00:47:49 Ed:  If it's coming from this idea that I'm just like well, there is this one time that's different from well, I think overall it would be safer for them to do this and that's true. And again, that's a part about trusting the relationship of maybe I'm being a little bit too over the top and the kids need to experience that. We've had the conversations with the kids and it was always like the funniest part was like their friends. It's like your dad sleeps during the day. That kind of stuff is always those questions. It really wasn't a lot of that. They were paranoid or anything like that. 

00:48:24 Ed: But we try to really kind of normalize things for them too and not be so over the top. Some stuff for no goes and it was just because that's just the way it should be, but I try to make that as seldom as possible, because it's where I'm at right and not necessarily where they're at. I always like to explain it. Compared to being a first responder and not being a first responder, it's like going to a Sheets or a 7-Eleven to get coffee. Whenever somebody goes in to get coffee at two o'clock in the afternoon, they walk in to get their coffee and they leave, right. 

00:48:52 Ed: Well, for me, I drive around a lot, I stop, I look around a lot. I walk in, look through the windows, see who's in there. I walk inside, look at everybody that's around to get my coffee. Look at everybody again, pay for my coffee and I walk out. I sit in the parking lot for a couple of minutes and then I leave. That's when I'm on the job, because you don't want to walk into something that you're not ready for. I can't live my life like that. I have to be able to just go in there and get at the beverage and leave. I can't live my life like that. So it's about turning that on and off. That's where the differences lie. 

00:49:24 Cinnamon: Thank you. That, I feel, is going to be very helpful to our listeners. I think a lot of what you've said is helpful to our listeners, but I think that question of the one time I saw this thing versus like here's a pattern. Maybe it's like I will let my daughter go to prom with friends or whatever, but no, After their soccer injury they are not getting prescribed opiates. I don't care what their doctor says. 

00:49:54 Ed: Yeah. 

00:49:55 Cinnamon: The difference in that we haven't really been able to tie this in yet, but I think this is one of the things that I am finding is really important, because we've spent so much time talking about individual responsibility around resiliency, but you, being an officer, wellness can you and maybe this is what we get to leave at the end of the show today. Can you speak into a little bit about what your experience is and what you would suggest or advise as far as organizational resiliency, rather than putting all the onus on the employees? How can our organizations, our departments, our agencies do better by their employees when it comes to how that organization is structured? 

00:50:37 Ed: I think officer wellness continues to be the elephant in the room. We all know it's there, we know it's an issue, but to acknowledge it, what kind of responsibility is going to come with acknowledging these issues and I think that's what the scary thing is for organizations is, especially around me I have a lot of small police departments. If they take somebody out of the rotation because of a trauma or something like that, it's really going to cause an issue. So there's this sense of losing people, there's this sense of you don't want to have a label. Nobody wants to get labeled and I think a lot of it is overcoming that they're not going to be labeled. 

00:51:17 Ed: And I think where it really is going to help out, it's like any other program that we have. The idea is to prevent the big thing from happening. We train in self-defense, we train in firearms, we train in de-escalation to keep it from going off the rails. Training somebody in officer wellness and getting them that help early. Like I said in the beginning, having groundwork to know where you're at before you get into this job. While you're in this job, like I get a physical every year, do I get a psychological evaluation? 

00:51:49 Ed: No, I don't want to touch that right, because then who's the who's the responsibility on it's the responsibilities on that department for messing you up? You know that I need to look at it. You know it's hard to take that chance. I think it's just like you know I look at wellness is if you have a problem with your knee and you go and you get physical therapy and you can heal your knee, that you're on track. But if you ignore that me and it becomes a problem until you need surgery and you need a major rehab and your offer six months that's going to be an issue. 

00:52:19 Ed: Don't wait that long. Get it done early. There's some people I've seen like maybe four or five times to get them through their trauma and they can function, they can figure out what it that they're going to be okay coming out the other side. So early intervention I think it's huge and there's one department around me right now that is sending their... I'm not sure exactly how it works what they send their officers once a year to see a counselor. I think that's awesome. 

00:52:46 Ed: So, knowing that early intervention is good and if you do need to help get it, there's life on the other side of it. There's life through your trauma. You may not be the same person, but there's life on the other side and you can still do this job, you can still function, you can get back to work. That's the biggest thing. Is what if I can't work anymore, what I can't use? 

It's a hard job to walk away from, but getting that help early, getting that help and you need it, can help you stay on the job and focused and get you to that next step and you might be a changed person, but you can be better for that change even.

00:53:23 Cinnamon: Well, and it sounds like from what you're saying we could also say you're going to be changed. Whether you go get therapy, you've been through something. You just even done this job. You're not the same person. There will be a change. Do we want to make this change a problem or do we want to have like kind of surf through it with the support of a professional?

00:53:46 Ed: And do we want to make that choice? Do we want to make the choice for change? We want to have somebody make that decision for us. And what happens? You know it's like you start going off the rails. You have the relationship problems, you have a substance abuse problems, you have the on the job problems. Somebody else is going to make that decision for you if you're not taking care of yourself and making that decision for yourself to get the help. 

00:54:11 Erin: And something that would Cinnamon and I are learning as of late because we go into departments and do annual wellness assessments for departments and it's not like a 15-minute checklist, it's really thorough. Everybody gets over an hour with us and, as a result, folks are like, "Oh, I'm glad you're here, because now I see that there's somebody that knows what I'm talking about and let me just make an appointment." So even if it's just the different departments are offering that once a year thing, they're providing a resource and then the folks can decide okay, I know this is here, I know this one hour with this person was helpful so I can start scheduling these things on my own. 

00:54:48 Erin: But that's even something. They can be doing and I love it. What I heard you say was get this show on the road from jump as soon as they get in, like bring the wellness to the forefront so that it's not this like freaking avalanche, it's just like you know this little snowball that's happening, but it's not like turning into this massive thing abruptly that it's trickling in the whole entire time. 

00:55:16 Erin: Our very first guy that we had on, Jason Callahan. He's a firefighter. He said the only thing they told us about things that might happen is you will see bad things, ask for help if you need it. It's like, well, let's give a little more information on how they can do that and what it might look like. If there's no training out there that's gonna prepare you for the things that you will see. But letting people know a little more than you will see bad things and giving them some tools and resources up front, I think, is the way. So I'm glad that you see that for what it is and are part of that change to your part of that now. 

00:55:51 Ed: Yeah, yeah 

00:55:53 Erin: you can be the person doing wellness assessments in your area for departments, because you get it. 

00:55:57 Ed: Right and it's funny cuz informally I have you know it's like you know, now, these, now we're having these conversations that I would not have had before. But you know, actually being at working as a therapist, you can have a officer saying, hey, what do you think? I know a guy that you get to a lot of those conversations and how about a huge thing is to is just normalizing this. You're gonna be different, this is gonna affect you. It's a normal response to an abnormal event. You're gonna have these reactions and it's okay. That can help them feel like they're not broken, feel that they can come in and have some help and get back on track that they're not. It's not  a deal breaker. 

00:56:41 Erin: I love it so yummy. I'm so excited that you got a hold of us and, man, you are the real deal. And now I'm glad that we have a clinician in Pennsylvania. Hey, by the time you retire, hopefully the show will be more recognized and out there can people can call you and they'll have that resource, let us know when you are retiring and what will do is will do like a flashback to 2023. Our favorite episodes of 2023, and will put you on that list and be like, "Hey, here's a guy, he could probably have a conversation with you about a couple things." 

00:57:19 Ed: I love it because I'll be here doing it. So, yeah, look forward to hearing from anybody. Yeah. 

00:57:24 Erin: Yeah, let us know how we can be of service to you as well. You know, we always say it takes a village and all of us must stay together in the same boat. Is there anything you feel like you would have liked to have touched on that you didn't get to share today? 

00:57:37 Ed: I think we covered a lot of stuff and you know again. I think what your show represents is normalizing this behavior and knowing that a lot of people are going through a lot of things and that's what I'm glad to be a part of is is knowing that everybody's having the experience and we're all here as therapists to help each other through that experience and identify what that experience is and get them focused on the healing and the other side. So I just appreciate what you are doing as well with this podcast. I think you have some great guest is telling their stories and, yeah, it's been a joy. I'm glad to be a part of it. 

00:58:08 Erin: Awesome, thank you.

00:58:10 Cinnamon: Thank you. 

00:58:13 Erin: Thank you for joining us for today's episode of After the Tones Drop. Today's show has been brought to you by Whole House Counseling. As a note, After the Tones Drop is for informational purposes only and does not constitute for medical or psychological advice. It is not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Please contact a local mental health professional in your area if you are in need of any assistance. You can also visit AfterTheTonesDrop.com and click on our resources tab for an abundance of helpful information. And we would like to give a very special thank you and shout out to Vens Adams, Yeti, and Sanda for our show's music.