The Burnout Escape: With AK Dozanti

EP55: The Burnout Escape

Erin : And live from Columbus, Ohio, this is your evening news. And my hair even looks newscaster. ish. Now that I, 

Cinnamon: Except it moves when you touch it, it like, you can tell the hair is 

Erin : that's because I got ready in 10 minutes.

Cinnamon: and so therefore it is not exactly like A news anchor. 

Erin: Well, I can tell you, which I say this a lot, but our listeners are going to be getting a real treat today because you got three, ADHD, Women who love to talk about mental health and first responders in one room, but look For the first time ever real life real life. We've got AK with us. 

Cinnamon: Touching each other. It's like Charlie's Angels! 

AK: Know It's not a green screen.

Erin: If you don't know who A. K. is, then you better, I don't know, become alive into the world? Because, I know, we the time, like, you might be famous one people might know you, but it's going to be in this [00:01:00] pod, this network of people. And otherwise you're a complete stranger and nobody knows who you are. I like that part. Yeah. we're not trying to be Oprah, right? But I will say. 

Cinnamon: Well, and I could have told somebody else that same thing about Dave Grohl and him singing in the car, and you could have been like, hmm, who's Dave Grohl? I would have keeled over, but again, not everyone knows everyone in every realm. 

Erin & AK: but Dave, Grohl, anyway, 

Cinnamon: Say his name, say his name.

Erin & AK: the point is, and I'm not trying to talk you up, but I really respect you you, one, you can usually watch someone and be like, are people, there are people, you're so much fun.

You're passionate, you execute and deliver. what is most important, which is cutting through the BS, you talk about the hard stuff. you use your struggles to your advantage, to help others and to make a difference and change the culture and the stigma around. [00:02:00] this crap that's going on with first responders not taking care of their mental health.

And so AK is retired law enforcement. She worked for a sheriff's department here in Ohio, hence the reason we're together because she is in town to give one of her presentations. You can is that right? Yeah. You have a speaking engagement. It's a fit for duty conference tomorrow. Yeah. Nice. Do you get to decide if they're fit for duty?

AK: Okay. Oh, no, there will there's no assessments. It is just it's a wellness day the ohio association of police families is putting it on so There will be no assessments made. It's okay. Sorry

Erin: But you've been traveling all around right you've been Going all over the place. Doing these speaking engagements that's one of the things that you're up to now that you've Retire. Now, did you medically retire?

AK: No, so I don't even necessarily, I don't feel like I deserve the, title of retired. I just say former, because I think retired is like when you've [00:03:00] actually made it. You've done your full 25 years or whatever. no, I left, in 2015. I went from being Officer of the Year to having a very crispy burnout. I was experiencing. PTSD, severe depression, adrenal fatigue, and suicidal ideation. And, I was just drowning. And it was either me or the job, and I chose me. And it was really hard. I didn't tell anybody why I left. I think I made up some bullshit about going back to further my education.

Which I did, but it wasn't until months later and, That was not the actual reason for the departure. But now everybody knows why. Yes, yeah. it took a couple years for me to have the courage to say that out loud.

Cinnamon: I'm no stranger to hiding in Academia

AK: Yes. .

Erin: Mm But it takes that courage. There's so much more courage in vulnerability and being real and honest and true granted. Mm hmm. On the job, it takes a lot of courage too. So I'm not [00:04:00] discounting that. But in order to break through this bullshit story about first responders and mental health, that's what it takes. 

And that's really how I accidentally found you was because you are vocal. You're very vocal on Tik TOK, on accident as you love to share. That was not her intention, by the way, she, she's Was, just putting out some real content. And one of the videos that she did was her,rap, singing the word, not rapping, but, singing the words to a song, but putting up these little, like little pop ups,cutting through the BS.

I'm not doing a very good job explaining it. Go to TikTok, actually Instagram. Cause we learned TikTok took the music down. 

AK: Yeah, they, they did, TikTok did a mass delete of a lot of audios. so it's still on Instagram, but No, I was just doing like quick transitions and the words in the lyrics of the song were So powerful and it just [00:05:00] struck me.

I believe the song is by Dax and it's called Joker But I thought wow that that applies to the first responder world in so many different ways. And I think that's where my little secret sauce is I can see everything through the lens of first responder wellness, and I just am able to tie it back and,put a slant on it to make it more relatable for first responders because you know at the end of the day We're all just people. We are. But we forget that.

Erin: I thought you were cyborgs. I, I think some people would like that. Yeah Cinnamon, what do you have to say?

Cinnamon: Unless we're in an x ray machine. 

Erin & AK: I'm like Unless...

Cinnamon: more access to x ray machines to be reminded. That when you strip the badge, strip the uniform,[00:06:00] we're all the same underneath. And if you're not responding the way a civilian would, we're It's simply because you've responded enough that you've been able to numb that.

Erin & AK: numbing 

Cinnamon: numbing is very different than compartmentalizing, which is the word that I hear so many folks wanting to use to describe what they've done,

Cinnamon: out. So when you were describing your experience leading to your departure from law enforcement, you had said. burnout, PTS, adrenal fatigue, and suicidal ideation. A lot of those terms we can say that we're pretty much familiar with.

I think sometimes adrenal fatigue, it's not as clear as the other ones. And so if you'd be willing to share your definition of it, and perhaps how you were experiencing it, as you were making that decision to leave law enforcement and seek another journey for yourself 

AK: Yeah, so Interestingly, I didn't even know I didn't [00:09:00] have a label for it until years later. but what I was feeling was my body was just slowly starting to shut down and I think I had just been high speed low drag for too long and I You Interestingly, I equate this partially back to some like ADHD and just being like hyper focused, hyper vigilant, go, go, go, go, go for too long.

And I felt the breakdown happening in my body. I felt the breakdown happening in my immune system.I didn't connect all the dots until later. but I had to have my tonsils taken out at 26 years old. That's not typically normal. I had shingles twice before the time I was 30. Not normal. I had to be rushed to the hospital for severe abdominal pain on duty.

Not normal. now I did struggle with IBS my entire life, but having flare ups is, a sign of stress. so when I actually left full time law enforcement, I took about [00:10:00] a month off before I started, in my criminal court victim advocacy position. And during that time, I slept for about 18 hours a day, every single day for 30 days.

And I was so pissed because I had so many things that I wanted to do. And my body was like, no, ma'am, you're going to stay horizontal. You're going to shut your eyeballs and you're going to rest. and it still took, I would say months before I felt like I was recalibrated. but man, I thought,here's something that I warn people about because a lot of times we will see this kind of like restraint collapse after leaving law enforcement because your body all of a sudden is okay, or first responder world because your body says, okay, you're safe now,some of that stress has lifted and you think, oh my God, I'm depressed.

I've lost purpose. I need to go back. And I. Caution people,that is not what that [00:11:00] is, give it six months. if you got to the point where you made the decision to leave, and I'm not suggesting people jump ship, but if you got to that place where you made the decision to leave, do not take that, those bodily symptoms as a sign that you need to go back. Give it six months.

Erin: And I'm glad you actually touched on that, on the idea of going back, because before we had started recording when we were just You MOLING, as we discussed if you listened to our last episode, episode 53.

I Believe we were talking something about that whole like dopamine hit. You had discussed with me about the way that, that dopamine just hits. And we were talking a little bit more about ADHD and that process. So it's interesting because along with that, there's those adrenaline dumps that all be, all of those bodily chemicals are really intoxicating and make you high.

And I, I appreciate the fact that often that's why people stay in this work and don't even realize it because they might feel like the way that you were feeling and really be chasing that high and say, okay, I got to get back into this line of work because I need to get my fix. But really it's quite the opposite.

It's learning how to re regulate your body and your system so that you aren't addicted to the drugs, to those chemical dumps.

AK: Yes. Yeah. And that's the thing is being able to [00:13:00] differentiate because cortisol, the stress hormone, feels a lot like dopamine, which is the pleasure center. So you have to be able to differentiate,what you're feeling in your body is that, that arousal, that superhuman strength, the, the, It just makes you feel alive, and that's great, but when you're getting that from cortisol, it's counterfeit, and it's wrecking your body, and your brain, and it's just not going to fuel you like you think it is, because it's going to make you feel alive, but it's taking years off of your life. And I've never said it like that, but I really like that.

Erin: That will be in a little quote bubble with your little face. A little quote bubble on that.  I'm glad that you touched on that. 

Cinnamon: I was just gonna say, I think when it comes to the [00:14:00] inside pharmacy, we hear so many first responders talk about being adrenaline junkies and it's fun. It's certainly not a stigmatized or negative concept to use. And I'm starting to think about the chicken egg thing. We might think, oh, I like it in my personal life because I like it in my work life. And now I'm starting to question, do we like it in our work life? Because before we came, became whatever first responder folks are, I was already addicted. And then I found a job where I could keep getting that fix. And then I think I've just started using. And then I'm going out and doing. risky things, so it's, I'm realizing that there was a step before the chicken egg that I've been thinking about.

AK: [00:15:00] 100%. I think a dysregulated nervous system is going to crave things that dysregulate you. it, whatever you are primed and conditioned for is what you're going to seek out. And if you've been primed and conditioned for chaos or excitement, however you want to see it, because the brain doesn't know the difference between fear and excitement.

So however you want to condition it, or I'm sorry, label it, if you're primed and conditioned for it, that's what you're going to seek out. and, Interestingly, we talk about identity a lot in the first responder world. And so to take that a step further, Bessel talks about how the essence of trauma is the loss of identity.

And so if you don't know who you are, doesn't it make a ton of sense to go into, a field where they hand you your identity via a uniform and a standard operating procedure book?

Cinnamon: Wow.

AK: You get a default identity [00:16:00] by becoming a first responder. And all of a sudden you are somebody and you're seen and you're heard and you're validated. And then that's where you feel the most alive. And then you come home and you're like, wow, I feel like a nobody. And it just makes, your home life feel like trash.

You wonder why things don't match up. So then you continue to take more overtime because that feels good. And then your family's pissed off and you don't want to go home and that feels bad. So it just drives you further and further. And it's so hard to recalibrate all of that and balance it back out.

Erin: Yeah. And that's why we talk a lot about people, even when it's just comes to retirement, right? Feeling like I don't even know who I am. You've taken, everything has been taken away from me and now I have to like suddenly figure out who I am. that's a lot of responsibility. Once you've hit that part of life, that should be when you're smooth [00:17:00] sailing and now you're like, I don't even know what I like to do.

And you can't get rid of, and I think this is where people get a little bit, Stuck is because they try to rid themselves of their old identity before they find out who they are And I think you have to have you have to have an identity to step into before you can shed the old one It does it's not going to Lend itself to an actual transition because otherwise you're just going into the ether and not You know, then you're just floating so you have to figure out who you are step into that before you can shed your old identity Otherwise, it's just not going to be sustainable

Cinnamon: Yeah, dang , again, mic drop moment. I thought we should be.. 

AK, I'm thinking about means to us and what we think the definition is. And when I ask people who they are, they tell me all of these roles they are in relation to other people.

Never have I had someone without prompting or working at it after it's been identified tell I'm kind. I'm funny. I'm  smart. I am a terrible green thumb, whatever it is, it's always I'm a mom. I'm a dad. I'm a husband. I'm a wife. And then, God forbid, we've been told we were bad before we ever got into adulthood, because then you give me an everyday hero label, and I'm not going to think twice about it. So then when the PTS starts hitting  in and we start questioning and feeling [00:19:00] delegitimized, there's only one identity to go back to and it makes that loss even go back to, and it makes that loss even more tragic.

Erin: If you're okay with it, I would really love to take this opportunity to touch on our conversation when you first got here about, about this ADHD versus PTSD thing, because the listener doesn't know this, but we have, obviously we just recorded the ADHD, we're calling it ADHD mislabeling episode.

That was what we were calling it behind the scenes because of, this idea that it's all about the hyperactivity,it's this [00:20:00] disorder that basically cinnamon states that it's the folks that named it ADHD actually don't have it. It's just the things that make them annoyed about us. That's her theory. but what I shared with AK was that we also had a sister episode to the episode about ADHD versus PTSD, which we ended up scrapping, for the time being. And a lot of it is based on experience from Save a Warrior, which now AK and Cinnamon have both experienced that.

AK: Yeah. Yeah. Cohort 1 5 1. 

Cinnamon: 239. 

Erin: She saw the picture, and she wondered if that was you. I did. I was like, is that? And that's why I thought that you were a former first responder, or, yeah. 

AK: [00:21:00] And Erin was like, no. And I'm like, oh, she's just, she's a unicorn. That means she's in. She's in the club. ,you're in the club. both in the club. 

Cinnamon: shit.

Erin & AK: She not to exclude. We I guess we are first responder ish enough.

Cinnamon: Qualified.

Erin: She actually did think that, and it is a unique experience. Obviously it's not typical that somebody like we would go through, but I think what they're learning is that, yeah, we're about just as messed up.

And I liken it to like dispatchers where we hear it all. So we're visualizing it all, but we don't actually see it. So we're just like holding the space, constantly holding the space, ending a session, and then. Rewinding back to ground zero, back to zero, To be able to take on this new data and never really getting a chance to process it.

And so we are experiencing our stuff too. Plus we are, adult children of alcoholics. We have, high ACEs. we are recovering alcoholics and addicts ourself. So it's we totally,

[00:22:00] yep. 

Cinnamon: Helpers.

Erin & AK: God forbid.

Cinnamon: it may look very different on the outside, but on the inside,it's just a different version of seeking out the same thing. How can we help and be identified as good people rather than how we've seen how we have been.

AK: 100%.

Erin: Yeah, and so I went the long way around, hence this is what I do, to tee up this concept of ADHD versus PTSD because there is this like questionable thing. How much of it is ADHD and how much of it is a trauma response?

Which has really flipped our world upside down. And as soon as I mentioned that you're like, yes. And let me tell you. Oh yeah. So what is your experience? I've been sitting on this idea [00:23:00] fora year and a half or two years, and I haven't said anything because I'm not a clinician and I don't feel qualified to talk about diagnostic criterias and things like that.

AK: Here's my thoughts. I'm just going to go for it because I have somebody here that can correct me if I'm wrong. So in my experience, as somebody who has been diagnosed with PTSD and ADHD,If you were to create a Venn diagram of the two of those things and overlap, there's going to be, there are so many things that overlap.

There are hardly anything, there's hardly anything that's going to be in just one category becausethe ways that both of those things present are so similar. It really makes you wonder, and when you boil it all down, it all comes back to a dysregulated nervous system. [00:24:00] And who's to say that, somebody who's been diagnosed with ADHD isn't also meeting the diagnostic criteria for PTSD, and just has some trauma that they haven't recognized to be trauma, And, whether it's in, childhood or adolescence, and oftentimes there's a lot of things that we don't recognize because We think of trauma as an event, and sometimes trauma is just the good things that didn't happen, or the things that needed to happen to support your upbringing that just didn't occur.

And, so who's to say that this ADHD diagnosis isn't actually PTSD? Because when you start to look at the, little bit of the time blindness, rejection sensitivity, reckless behavior, impulsivity, a dire [00:25:00] desire to connect. So you're sharing your own experiences, which comes off as, like you're trying to take the limelight.

So many of these things present the same. So which one is it? Is it the chicken or the egg? And are they the same? I know that your, when you talk about ADHD, it is your, it's neurodivergence. It's neuro, you're neurospicy. But we also have neuroplasticity. who's to say that our, the rewiring of PTSD isn't causing the ADHD?

I don't know. And so then when you relate that back to first responders, I did a TikTok, I think I told you it was a year ago. I think it was two years ago. But it was in April, no, it was a year ago, and I brought it up, ADHD and First Responders, and it went viral because people were like, me too, [00:26:00] and it was unbelievable just the idea of it, like, why hasn't this been talked about?

I feel like we need to talk about this more, partially because these things, and I'm really rambling here, but partially because, please ramble. The things that we. Struggle with in ADHD and PTSD often on the outside are seen as character flaws We get shamed because we're, we don't have good manners.

We're not polite, we're not  right. We're disrespectful because we're not showing up on time. We're forgetting things. We're not considering other people's feelings, so they show up as character flaws like we have. bad morals and then we get shamed and so it just adds to further dysregulation and Then here we are on a podcast talking about it,

Erin: Which How excited are you right now cinnamon? [00:27:00] How?  like waiting for it to light up

Cinnamon: just, I'm really working to contain myself so I don't blow over Erin right now because she said something first. Can I say something now? I paused for three seconds. So if you had something to say, you could have said it then...

Cinnamon: AK, I want to direct you towards Gabor Mate, G A B O R. He is the first person that I respected and then very quickly disliked because he said, ADHD is not a disorder, not a disease, it  And I was like, fuck you! And I took that very personally. And then, like you, I've been able to see that Venn diagram of overlapping and we talk about the changes that happen to the brain with trauma. And then we've always been talking about ADHD as neurodiverse and on the spectrum of autism, right?

There is a lot of places across the world that, are speaking to it as just one spot on the spectrum. And there are definitely spectrum y things that I'm aware that I do. And That had made more sense because the idea of like my brain is wired differently from birth Versus by the time I was five.

I was so fucked up that I was traumatized and I didn't know how to behave properly and became a people pleaser and Was ready to With the song and [00:29:00] dance whenever I wanted so here to sound like a whole bunch of legitimacy around the neurodiversity and the spectrum aspect, and then to have Mr. Mate come in and burst my bubble, and I'm like, Okay, so seriously, who did the brain scan of me between the time I was born, and I had my first trauma, which. I know what I remember as my first trauma. I know that is not the first trauma I had. I also remember my absolute devastation in fourth grade when my oldest sister left for college. And if that wasn't Abandonment 101,I was in fourth grade and it showed up immediately like this increased level of hyperactivity and annoyance and like desire to keep constant noise, so I didn't have to feel isolated [00:30:00] and alone.

Yeah, I'm yeah, I'm working on a certification right now for ADHD, as a specialist, and I'm learning so much. we need more Novocaine,

And our bodies are processing it faster. at a dentist's office. I, that's part of, not only was the episode, Erin and I were both at the bottom of the bucket, and just, it was a terrible recording. But it truly was like we needed to take a time out. And we need to be responsible educators and advocates and make sure that we are not  putting out erroneous information, it's good intended.

AK: Right. Which is why I kept my mouth shut because I was like, I don't have, I have masters, but I don't have all the other, and I, didn't feel qualified to speak on it.

I felt qualified enough to ask people on Tik TOK, what their experiences were. [00:31:00] But I definitely didn't, I didn't do a follow up because I didn't Every time I went to try to make the connection, to make the video to make that connection, I just thought, I'm going to get absolutely slammed for this in the comments, and I'm going to get cancelled.

Erin: Congratulations, you didn't get cancelled.

Cinnamon: I even think about the,

Erin & AK: I didn't do the video. I was just thinking

Cinnamon: I was just thinking about the relief, that we hear from our clients after they take their ADHD medication. And I'm starting to think, ah, fuck, we're adding to, we're just feeding the withdrawal of that. Addiction to our own chemicals, and that is, it's we're giving ourselves a fix and under the pretext that it's what [00:32:00] we need,

Rather than work that is tied to and processing and recovering from PTS. I'm so sorry. I'm having a lot of feelings about this because I'm pissed because that means there's going to be more work both for me professionally and personally, but also it's like an aha moment of holy shit, that makes so much sense because even Gen Xers who were only getting diagnosed with ADHD as adults, perhaps there wasn't the shit to be diagnosed that early on. And so they just think that they got, skipped over when in reality it's only showing up in adulthood after repeated exposure 

AK: Well, and here's my other thought on that, is it's become very trendy [00:33:00] to say that you have ADHD or autism, but I'm under the belief, I operate under the belief that nobody is exempt from trauma.

And so everybody hears about ADHD and all of the little comorbidities and all of the things, and they're like, me too, I have that too, I do those things. Maybe it's not ADHD. Maybe it's your trauma manifesting in that way, and you just don't recognize it to be that. but to speak to the medication, I was medicated for about seven months and I was like, this, my brain can feel, I can do what?

Like I, I wrote 30 pages of curriculum in two days and yeah. And then I got pregnant and I was like, Oh, probably need to...

Cinnamon: So you just, more than just 30 pages 

Erin & AK: She did her homework too. yes.

Cinnamon: The take home assignment?

AK: That still lives in my home. yes, but he, or he, I'm thinking of my baby now. no, I ended up coming off of it. and So I had the baby brain on top of it, and then I had postpartum and all of that brain fog and so I'm just now getting to the place where I feel like I have my brain back and I have an urge to get my medication back on track and I'm finding that there are so many natural alternatives that I'm willing to try. And I'm actually working with a mental health nutrition coach who's a certified therapist as well. to look into those things.

But I realize like you that it's just feeding the machine and it's not it's not really It's fabricated.

Erin: Yeah, I and here's the thing I want to say this there has nothing that has been said in the past 15 minutes That we are claiming to be fact This is all aboutWhat if? Isn't that an interesting thing to consider?

Because we don't know. we've only done the study of our own personal lives and then said, that's an interesting comparison. So we can just go ahead and kick it to the curb that you are completely, qualified to talk about. Yeah. Your curiosity in this world and you don't have to have letters behind your name in order to Bring up some of these questions that make people [00:36:00] ponder and say Maybe I should educate myself a little bit more about 80 adhd or pts either way, And so I think it's so fantastic because when we first started this show We spent a lot of time like let's talk about your war story And then we're like why are we even doing that because every Guest we have on here has a war story.

Most of our listeners, 99.99999% have a war story, which we all have our own. It just might look a little bit different for each person. but it's so important to us to begin to bring you guys in, you first responders in who now have evolved in your life. And now you're doing wellness coaching. you take on clients, you're, I'm going to call you like a circuit speaker.

You're, I've seen you popping around a lot to all these different events. and that's what matters. What matters is, okay, here is, yeah, I went through this really hard shit and it jacked me up and I lost who I was or didn't even know who I was. but [00:37:00] here's what it's about. And here's what can be possible.

It's inspiring people to see that despite the fact that you chose this career originally, and the universe had different plans for you, that you can still be effective, that you can still live this high quality life that maybe even is more serving. So I know brace yourself then being that first responder, because.

It's on such a different, I know her face is frozen. Then, it's just you're still getting to be that helper in a different capacity. And this is probably why I imagine you and Jess Flora as Oh, yeah, we did a great episode together. It was fun. plus she's again, our people.

Cinnamon: She was excited to hear we were

AK: Oh, yeah, good.

But I love her. It's that same thing of Oh, damn, I hear I thought I lost it all. Yes. And I just realized I just gained everything. Yeah. and I think part of that is being able [00:38:00] to peel back all the layers. part of that is getting your body to a place where you feel safe enough to listen to your own internal guidance system.

I had lost that. I thought that I couldn't trust myself, because my, and I won't even blame it on my mental illness, but I was. I was doing things that were, I was betraying my own morals and my own boundaries because I needed that fix. I was doing, I had reckless behavior because of whatever was going, my body felt reckless.

I didn't even feel like I was in my own skin. And so I, I wrestled with that a lot and in 2020 when I left my advocacy position, I took a few months off because it was.and I had a baby at home and I was like, let's just see where this goes, but I ha I fell into this kind of a negative spiral [00:39:00] of,I don't have any direction.

I don't have any purpose. I don't have any focus. What am I going to do with my life? And I was originally was like, I'm going to, because I'm a yoga instructor and I'm a meditation specialist. So I do a lot of guided meditations. I was like, I'm going to make it happen. Because this is what we need right now, in a pandemic, because only 50, 000 other people were doing the same thing.

but no. But there's only one you. I created, I actually created this whole thing, and then I was like, I'm going to do a division for first responders. And I really was scared to go all in on the first responder thing, but every single time, I tried to do just the general yoga thing, there was a roadblock and I had to start listening to my own discernment and go, okay, this isn't my path.

This isn't it. This isn't it. But let me tell you, the first responder thing was scary as hell because it was an express way. People were like, yes, give me more. And I was [00:40:00] like, I don't have, I don't have it figured out yet. And it just kept going and going. And before I even had it figured out, I was on three podcasts.

and I'm just talking about my experience. I just, I had to get over the fear and just take action and I did. And I stumbled a few times, but I'm here. I, I've been able to hone it in and dial it in and it was scary and wonderful. And I'm still like in awe that I'm even sitting here.

With you all. to, talk about this stuff and to talk about my own experience because the biggest hurdle to doing just the first responder thing was that I had to share my own story. And when I finally shared my story, people were like, me too! And I was like, oh, really? And it wasn't an outward, you wouldn't, you didn't see it in the comments, but my DMS, who buddy, they were filled.

And I was like, is this real life? And so then that just [00:41:00] fueled me. And I knew that was the direction I needed to go. That's your true calling. But you had to go through that school of hard knocks. Yeah. You had to go through that experience to be able to evolve into your actual purpose. Which I'm sure will evolve again because Sure, it does.

and I think, I just think that it's incredible. And because of people like you, because of people like our other guests, it's constantly giving people that permission slip. To say, okay, we can do this job. We can have a really effective career and we can get honest about the effects that the job has on us, the effects that it has on our personal life as well and do something about it in real time versus when it's like a real shitstorm to clean up.

Yeah. Way too late sometimes.

While you were talking,

Cinnamon: While you were talking, [00:42:00] AK, I actually thought 

Erin & AK: a

quote 

Cinnamon: quote that one of, Erin and I's friends had posted on her Facebook. So shout out to CP. I'm not going to give her name just in case, but what she said really hit me and I actually wanted to share it. With Erin privately and now you've presented this opportunity, but what she said was Trust your gut

Not that it's always right But you have to start there to learn the difference and the sooner you start the better

Erin & AK: I 

Cinnamon: would I you know One of the things that I have been asking folks to do is when they have questions or they're not sure Get real quiet

Erin & AK: you already know the answer

And when somebody 

Cinnamon: And when somebody had me do that, my first thought was, fuck, 

like literally that word, it came out of my mouth,

Erin & AK: my [00:43:00] mouth. But, working with

my clients, doing 

that same 

thing,

I get the same results

Cinnamon: I get the same results 

as someone got 

with 

me.

It's, we know the answers. 

Can we slow down,

listen to it?

push aside the fear,

remove that desire momentarily to have somebody else validate what we're thinking to tell us whether we're right or wrong so we don't have to inadvertently make a wrong move or just simply trust 

ourselves. And so I love that as you're talking about being, even that meditation specialist, like I've been doing the thing that we learned how to do from SAW and I suck at it, and I am very aware that I suck at it, and I'm also aware that I'm two weeks in, and I'm not stopping, because I also am not Tom [00:44:00] Brady level quarterback 

either, so I would need practice, 

and if I give up before it happens for me, then I never get to reap the benefits.

I love that you

I love that you have And maybe you could reiterate this because it's been sprinkled throughout, 

but can you go through that list again, that bullet point list of the things that you offer 

up to the people 

who work with you privately 

could potentially follow you on social media? 

Erin & AK: them? So a lot of it is, and truly I, this is silly, but I make sure that I get, and get, this isn't silly. I get really grounded before I go into session, or a, a speaking engagement or whatever. but so much of what I do just comes through me. To the point where I don't even like I'm like, I don't know where that came from It came like somebody [00:45:00] plucked it out of my subconscious.

I don't know to the point where I have to keep a notebook because i'm like i've never said that out loud before and I just have to write it down, but as far as It's like my subconscious has so many things swirling around and it's who knows what'll come up. but I have to My greatest thing that I can offer somebody else is to listen with my whole heart.

And when I listen, like just to give them that space to really just spill it. I'm here for it. You're not gonna scare me. You're not gonna offend me. I'm not gonna judge you. just let me have it, right? And then we can pick it apart from there. but Really, a lot of the coaching and the, speaking engagements and stuff, it's a lot of, I talk a lot about, post traumatic growth.

I talk a lot about burnout prevention and what those things really are is being able to take care of [00:46:00] your basic needs. Which, what a concept. People think it's so dumb. It's so overlooked. It's so undervalued. But if you can take care of your blood sugar regulation and stay hydrated and get enough sleep and, have some decent social connection, like that's going to knock out a lot of stuff for you.

All of those things are controllables for your nervous system. so the. overall goal is to find some nervous system regulation. And it's not about being regulated all the time because we're freaking human. It's about being able to be connected enough to notice when you're dysregulated and to notice if you're on the high end or the low end.

So you can bring it back slowly. And that is not to say that we're doing that to numb out it's to, to stay connected. So it's connection over regulation. Because sometimes you have to be dysregulated, or I feel like there's no healing in being flatlined. if you're [00:47:00] regulated all the time, are you really doing the work?

Are you really healing? Are you really blasting through stuff? Are you really processing things? Are you really processing things through your nervous system? Or are you just shut down and numbed out? I don't know if that answered your question or not, it's a lot of,I, I go back and I, a lot of what I do too, is educating on ACEs and educating on nervous system regulation and what happens to the brain and the body, because I think there is so much empowerment in just being able to understand what your body is doing as a human And that knowing and understanding that everything that you're experiencing after having some chronic stress or having some trauma is totally normal and to be expected.

So once you do that, you take the shame out of it for people and then they're like, Oh, so you're saying I'm not. [00:48:00] Quite that fucked up and then your regular fucked up . So then we, so then we can start to, work from there. and maybe trace it back to where do you feel like maybe this started?

Oftentimes it has nothing to do with a job. Nothing to do with a job like

Cinnamon: I 

like.

Erin & AK: to say,

Cinnamon: I like to say, 

Erin & AK: don't have daddy

Cinnamon: women don't have daddy issues. They have daddies with issues, Like

Erin & AK: Disconnecting from the ownership

Cinnamon: from the ownership of 

that. 

right? And why the hell do women get that shitty ass label when they didn't have control over what was happening? At that point in their life. So that's a stand I've been making 

lately. I Had another question, but similar to Aaron I just got super excited about what you said and then it flew right out of my head 

Oh, 

I know what it was. 

See 

Erin & AK: was. See, that's all it takes. [00:49:00] as

Cinnamon: so as you are educating folks and talking to them about childhood adverse experiences, I personally

Erin & AK: like your

Cinnamon: like your experience on 

Erin & AK: anyone older than a

millennial, um, Gen 

Cinnamon: so Gen X, baby boomers, when we have a difficult time hearing those 10 questions,

Erin & AK: the little people we

Cinnamon: as the little people we were at the time.

rather than the adult in front of you. And we've also

Erin & AK: been conditioned

Cinnamon: been conditioned that yeah, I got a spanking, but I deserved it. Aaron, you remember that parking lot conversation.

Erin & AK: how

Cinnamon: So how do, you break through 

that wall of denial or 

mislabeling or minimizing that we see folks doing

because [00:50:00] they interpret it as, I'm saying that you had terrible parents, which that 

is not where the conversation, that actually is irrelevant, to the conversation, so I don't focus on it.

But, that defensiveness of, I don't want to be a victim, or I don't want to bad mouth my parents, or as an adult,

Erin & AK: am

Cinnamon: I am very aware that I was loved, and I know that if I was chased home by bullies, and my mom and dad were sitting on the porch, they would have protected me. And not thinking about those moments when mom said, wait till your 

Erin & AK: mm-Hmm. 

Cinnamon: gets home.

And then dad is the disciplinarian, and you know damn mom ain't gonna protect you because she's the one that ratted 

 out.And that moment of I am on my own, no one's gonna protect me. 

 even though we know as 

adults to move through that and get to how we experienced 

it while we were under the age of 18, [00:51:00] 

I would love your wisdom, because I am still going through those walls, and that's, my hot topic for the 2024 

Erin & AK: 2024 circuit. So as we know, trauma is nervous system overwhelm. And I just simply ask them to close their eyes and try to remember what their body felt like in that moment. Because I know. In moments for me, like I felt I was being abandoned or shamed or whatever the case is. My body did not feel like my own. I could, and I still am like a master dissociator. Like I can zone out into the ether and, but I remember being able to do that as a kid. and I [00:52:00] remember times where I absolutely felt like my heart fell out of my butt, if I can be so frank, because it was a nervous system overwhelm.

And if your body felt all of a sudden, like you were in a panic, that was probably traumatic. And so I think educating them on what trauma is and what trauma does to the body and the nervous system, and then equating that back to what did little you feel, not think, because your thoughts have been given to you by somebody else.

What did little you feel in that moment?

I totally, just in this moment, listening to you two, I'm like, I just visualized this like interesting side project because Cinnamon just touched on it. this is her topic. [00:53:00] She has a presentation called aces in the hole. She's been traveling all around with first responder conferences. we're going to be in Northern Kentucky, at their symposium.

She's not speaking at Phoenix Project, but we'll be there talking about aces, you better believe it. I have a

Cinnamon: have New Jersey right 

before 

Erin & AK: Yeah. So she, that is her presentation. is educating about ACEs. And as you can see, she's experiencing a lot of pushback, but wait a minute, my parents didn't suck.

no. We get it. Your parents were doing the best they could with what they had. And it doesn't mean it didn't affect you. So it is super cool. And we've had a handful of our guests. Be in this space of oh, yeah adverse childhood experiences. So it is this like thing that is becoming more readily talked about I think in this culture, but Yeah, i'm just like I wonder There gets to be this little like side [00:54:00] thing with you two and i've had clients that are Much older than myself.

I mean my oldest client was 62 and the things that bothered him the most, and he,the career that this man had, I can't even, a lot of it, he wasn't even supposed to be talking about, but,the things that bothered him the most, were the things that happened when he was a child.

And he's like, how am I supposed to deal with this? And I said, it's not a matter of dealing with it, it's a matter of processing it. And recognizing it for what it was.

Cinnamon: I just

Erin & AK: had an epiphany

Cinnamon: had an epiphany

Erin & AK: you said

Cinnamon: when you said a lot of that stuff he wasn't supposed to be talking about, which I'm making a leap and saying it 

Erin & AK: work related.How much

Cinnamon: How much of our trauma

Erin & AK: had this story

around it. 

Cinnamon: the story around it? For whatever reason, we cannot 

[00:55:00] talk, about it. we 

don't 

talk, we don't feel, we don't share about what happens in our households.

And then you go into a job where Confidentiality is at its core and you 

can't talk about it or there's, the components of the secrecy of FBI military, like all of that stuff. It's almost like the secret keeping is being replicated in these careers. Holy shit. Okay. I got it. I need, I'm going to need 

Erin & AK: that. Yeah. And then you talk about,secrets keep you sick and then you've got all of this trauma buildup and chronic stress from keeping the secret and maybe even living a double life.

Talk about undercover officers. Are you kidding? They have to literally live two lives. And then you look at the premature mortality rate [00:56:00] and the autoimmune rate. and the cardiovascular disease rates and the rates of stroke and all of these things. And it's really no wonder because it's going to come out in some way, shape, or form.

it, Bessel van der Kock says it best. It lives in our body. It is alive. It's like yeast. It just lives in there. And then it just bubbles up whenever it wants to, and it's going to come out. In a physical way, unless you express it through either, talking about it or somatic experiencing, which is phenomenal, that's another thing I kind of use with people, and being able to let your body cycle through the traumatic experience, if you were in a situation where you wanted to scream, but it wasn't safe to scream, then you let yourself scream.

You [00:57:00] let yourself complete the cycle and same goes for, fight response. If you wanted to fight and you didn't get to, get on a heavy bag and let yourself complete the cycle. The stress cycle. Have you ever heard of the book breakdown? No, I will give you a copy. I'm pretty sure I have an extra one.

Yeah, you gotta check it out. it's about the

importance of completing the stress cycle. So my reference for that is, Peter Levine's Waking the Tiger. I have that upstairs by my bed too with bookmarks in it. Oh my gosh. That was

Cinnamon: yeah, that was on our first anniversary of Whole House. We did, a month long weekly book 

giveaway.they had X, Y, and Z, and then they got their name thrown into a drawing on, and that was, we gave away,

Erin & AK: Tiger, we

Cinnamon: Waking the Tiger, we gave away Body Keeps the Score, we gave away Tao of [00:58:00] Trauma, like all of these books 

that, time and time again, they come back to.

And as you were talking, what popped into my head was belly fat and high blood 

medication. There it is, yeah. right? the

you are in this career long enough and you lose maybe that desire or the priority or that time, however you want to frame it to take care of yourself, you get in a 40 hour chair and you start looking 

different 

Erin & AK: it's easier.

Cinnamon: it's easier and this can go all the way back to our ADHD conversation.

It is easier to pop a 

pill 

Erin & AK: you can do it a second,

Cinnamon: you can do in a second than it is to truly take care of 

yourself. 

Erin & AK: I think

Cinnamon: And I think 

we as an entire culture, 

are guilty of that. I know my mom would 

Erin & AK: pie than take a 

Cinnamon: and take a 

Erin & AK: who wouldn't? Who 

wouldn't? Mhm. 

Cinnamon: wouldn't?

[00:59:00] And when we can get a sugar rush or dopamine rush from that 

sugar, like I wouldn't want to deny myself.

That's why I travel with donuts,

Erin & AK: I think everyone should travel with donuts. Oh my gosh.

Cinnamon: right?

Erin & AK: This has been It's best that

I 

Cinnamon: best that I don't go 

into the gas 

Erin & AK: station Especially Unsupervised? In your hometown, in Danville, where they have all those, fresh Pastry, Amish delights. Amish baked delights. Danishes. 

Yeah.

So, AKA, or

Cinnamon: AKA, or I would assume given where you're, 

Erin & AK: not in 

Cinnamon: you are, not in Aaron's kitchen, but so my parents live in home County, Holmes County, and I grew up in Knox. So right up there in Amish country where, Everything they make is delicious 

Erin & AK: Yes. I 

Cinnamon: pies. 

Erin & AK: listening. That's [01:00:00] probably pretty likely. That's a safe bet. Yeah. I love the

Cinnamon: I love the idea of somatic experiencing 

work because I think about even the folks who have,

you said you don't like to use the word retire,

Erin & AK: And use it only for

Cinnamon: and use it only for those who have completed their 25 years. I've been referring to like medical retirement. how much of those somatic, like physical symptoms and injuries that they just simply cannot recover 

from are because not only do they keep throwing themselves back into it, and not taking the time off that they need to recover, but also the mental strain that is weakening their ability to recover.

And. even for my folks who end up medically retiring for [01:01:00] a physical health 

issue. 

Erin & AK: always say,

Cinnamon: I always say, please feel free to ask me for documentation or sign a release for me because your mental state, that's about how this has affected you or how your mental state has affected, your physicality.

we can't, I don't want anyone to not include medical or mental health records regardless of what type of disability it is. Because, 

I don't know, it's It was such a terrible idea to separate 

those two, 

Erin & AK: physical

health.and I think that what happens is we, here we go.

It's a stigma and we hear, I'm, I need a mental health day and people are like, Oh, so you're going crazy. no, and it's not even, I don't think it's even coming from outside anymore. I think it's embedded in us. And so we do it to ourselves and we're like, I'm not crazy.

And it's nobody's saying you're crazy. You have a freaking brain injury. [01:02:00] PTS is a brain injury. It's like a sprained ankle, but like worse than that.Along the same vein. You said internal. My

Cinnamon: When you said internal, my first thought was, like, yes, I definitely think it's coming from the individual, that story of what will others think of me, but I also have noticed that the harshest critics are in the stations and the departments, not civilians observing. we're all on the outside going, Oh, hell yeah, that makes total sense.

You probably do need a reprieve. And as a civilian, I probably don't want you at 

work if there's an emergency when you are in, need of that time to whatever it is that can get you at least a little bit back to regulated,

but I think it is still in the agencies and the departments. I spoke one time and had a 

chief. 

Erin & AK: tell me,

Cinnamon: Come tell me [01:03:00] don't ever mention mental health day to my people ever again.

Erin & AK: And my response

Cinnamon: And my response 

was, I'm so glad you're not my 

boss. 

Erin & AK: not the boss of me. Good

for you. 

Cinnamon: the boss of me.

Erin & AK: and

 it's really wild. And I think. Here's the problem. here's the, here's where I get stuck, right?

Because I get, I want to be really mad at those people. I want to be like, you're an asshole, like all the way. But I also see that their rigidity in the way that they think is a byproduct of their trauma. And being afraid. And being afraid. and they're not willing to open themselves up to it because they just don't know what they don't know.

And they may never be open to it, and that's [01:04:00] okay. And so it's, I toggle back and forth between wanting to, throw a stick in front of their feet while they're walking and,wanting to just give them a big old hug and say, I see you. Yeah. And didn't you just, was that now I'm starting to, everything's blending together.

Was it you or Jess? I think it was you that was talking about Hey, here's the thing. We're not. You were basically saying people were like, I'm so sick of this PTS diagnosis and dah. And people were like, and then you said something along the lines of, if this is like hitting that cord, then Oh yeah. It's an old hillbilly saying a hit dog will holler. It means it, it hits something internally to you because you're not going to get offended If it doesn't apply to you, if it doesn't apply to you, you keep scrolling and go, okay, but if it applies to you and it is a threat to your ego, then you're going to, you're going [01:05:00] to blast me a stranger on the internet because why?

Because it's a threat. Otherwise keep scrolling, right? Like it's, it wouldn't be offensive if it didn't hit home in some way.even thinking about,

Cinnamon: even thinking about, that, inability to see the benefit of normalizing taking your PTO to take care of yourself where you don't have to get all the way to being physically ill, 

or it may just be, I want more days off in a row because my body needs it. 

Erin & AK: it,

 also 

Cinnamon: there's also what we're aware of.

There's a staffing shortage. It's the stress of scheduling. It's the stress of mandated overtime. It's The fear of, God forbid, everybody who needs a mental health day takes one off because no one will show 

up. 

Erin & AK: then we've got a

Cinnamon: And then we've got a bigger problem. I can totally see what you're talking about in terms of leadership's [01:06:00] response being such as that.

Because what they're afraid of

Erin & AK: And that's the

Cinnamon: is the reality of what would happen if they had the liberty to use their

PTO in that 

Erin & AK: liberty to use their PTO in that way. feel better at work. They feel more alive and it's uncomfortable to not know what to do with yourself on a day off. And so in, in an effort to avoid the discomfort, I'm just going to go to work where they tell me what to do and I can feel alive.

Absolutely. Do you 

Cinnamon: Do you think that

Erin & AK: this could

Cinnamon: this could

Erin & AK: Be connected to 

Cinnamon: to [01:07:00] voluntary deployments for military?

Erin & AK: let's say

let's say mom is I am done being a single mom. Get home. I'm so we've missed you. The kids don't remember you, everybody wants you home. And then it's Okay, I

Cinnamon: Okay, I missed you too, but, I have an opportunity to go overseas again, and I'm gonna take it, and maybe I'll tell you that it's a volunteer, or maybe I won't, but either way, I feel

Erin & AK: more comfortable

Cinnamon: more comfortable

in a tent than I do in this comfortable, loving 

household, 

Erin & AK: this makes my skin

Cinnamon: this makes my skin crawl, where over there,

Erin & AK: I feel freedom. it's also about Where do you find your worth? If you're getting, if you're at work and you're getting praised for doing a good job and you feel like you have utility, you feel like you're accomplishing something, and then you go home and you're like, Oh, I'm going to sit in this big [01:08:00] comfy chair and my wife's going to be pissed at me because I didn't take the trash out last night.

Which one are you going to pick? It's pretty simple. I don't know what

Cinnamon: Or I don't know what 

to do right, because If I help, if I,

don't help, I, it's a problem. But if I do help, they've created a routine in my absence and I might not be doing it the right 

way and it's confusing. So yeah, the expectation is very 

Erin & AK: Right. Yes. Yeah. Your barometer is very clear at work. Your, your goalposts are very clear, and you know what's, where you're making progress, you know where you're hitting the mark, but at home, it's all abstract. It's all vague, and that's actually precisely what I'm in town for, is doing, presentations on, we're calling it Relationship Recon.

[01:09:00] And we're speaking to the group of law enforcement and then we're speaking to the spouses. So we're speaking to them separately, but they're getting the same presentation. And Amy Bok's gonna be there too, right? Yes. Yeah. and so it's all about communication because we tend to put people in these invisible contracts and then it grows resentment because we expect them to know the thing but we don't communicate the thing and then when they don't do the thing we get pissed And all of a sudden that morphs into, they don't care about what I think, they don't care about what I need, they don't respect me.

And it's no, maybe they, maybe the communication just wasn't clear. Absolutely. And both people

Cinnamon: both people in the relationship can have 

Erin & AK: 100%. Yeah. and it's funny that you say, one of my things that I do is I'm an integration coach. I work with a lot of our folks. As they get through a certain point of their treatment [01:10:00] process, they'll come to me and we'll do some forward thinking stuff.

And often couples will end up coming to me and I separate them. And they're like,I was like, no, because the problem is not with your husband or with your wife, their spouse in general, the problem is in you and not the problem. The misunderstanding, the miscommunication is within you. And so it's re.

and I, and understanding that. And so how fantastic that you're doing this, that you are presenting the same material, which we are also going to be doing that with one of our departments down the road here soon for the same reasons. Like you, we can give you the same exact information. And it's going to hit you in a way that just the perfect way that it needs to hit you for you to Heal and grow in your relationship within yourself your own relationship your personal relationship with yourself and your partner so Oh, that's my biggest thing is you know, we're quick to [01:11:00] focus on what the other person is doing wrong or not doing and My biggest thing is if you put down the swords, there's no need for the shields If you stop trying to throw daggers, you don't need to protect your, you're supposed to come together.

It's a relationship. It's, my, my husband and I, we,we've been married seven years. So we've gone through some stuff. And we had to come to the conclusion that we are here to make each other better. So iron sharpens iron. So when we start to get, when the daggers come out, we just look at each other and say, iron.

And, when we call a truce, remember, we have to come together and make each other better. We're not coming at each other. We need to come together on the same side of it and move through the situation. This girl's a walking bumper sticker. I know. I'm

like, that should be on a 

Cinnamon: have 

Erin & AK: I need some [01:12:00] merch. 

Cinnamon: so hard to 

Erin & AK: you do. 

Cinnamon: shit down,

Erin & AK: I

Cinnamon: I have twice, I've only wrote things down, three times, because I've been keeping my eyes where they're supposed to be, so I'm not in every clip like this, 

 but I did write that down,

Erin & AK: the idea

Cinnamon: the idea of if you put down your swords, and I ask 

clients, 

Erin & AK: the 

Cinnamon: When 

Erin & AK: party comes

Cinnamon: other party comes in, I'm like, okay, so what if I tell you that you're right?

And the other one is wrong.

Erin & AK: Does it solve anything? No!

Cinnamon: No, and they're so adamant that's what they want from a couple's counselor or a marriage therapist. 

And I'm like, I can just play eeny, meeny, miny, moe and make any of you right. And how does that solve 

Erin & AK: problem. Right. Because Whoever's I just

Cinnamon: whoever's I just say whoever's right or wrong 

Erin & AK: that's not what I do.yeah, because [01:13:00] it's not about who's right, it's about coming together and being a united front. Like we, we all deal with enough stressors in life as it is. Why come home and create more? But on the flip side of that, I know why is because if you're a first responder, you're primed and conditioned. For chaos.

And when you come home and things are boring, you're gonna poke the bear.and there, That goes right back to ADHD, because we don't like boring people. So is it ADHD or is it PTS? Who knows? Or boring shit. As we said on our last episode. But here's what I want to do. I want to take the opportunity, because just like a lot of our folks, we can talk for 20 hours and never run out of things to talk 

about. But I want to make sure,

Cinnamon: What's your favorite color?

Erin & AK: Black. Black. Dogs or cats? How do people find you?

Where can we find you? How can we hire you as our coach? [01:14:00] How can we get you on to speak to our people? Give us the, this is where you get to shamelessly plug yourself, if you will. and we'll make sure that we have everything on our show notes, of course, so that people can find you.

Bye. Give us your spiel before we wrap up. It's really not a huge spiel. so I do one on one coaching with individuals. I do agency trainings and, speaking engagements. And I have a free app called Lifesaver Academy. So you can find my, some of my stuff on the app. And there's, a free version with a bunch of different things.

Grounding techniques and regulation tactics, meditations, if you wanna try that out, it's me literally guiding you through a meditation, ton of resources on there. And, everything else is all linked up at akadezani. com. if you go there, you can find all my links for all my social accounts, and you can put in a request to be on my coaching, my one on one wait list.

[01:15:00] you can check out, there's a self paced program. It's a nine week program, and it's videos of, it's training videos of me, walking you through stuff, and workbooks, and, you could also Request information for an agency training or like a keynote situation on there as well Our girl's on fire making a difference in the world I Thank you 

Cinnamon: The girl is on fire!

Erin & AK: Our whole life is like a soundtrack.

I love you know what life is just more fun when it's a musical. That's right And it's not even

Cinnamon: it's not even intentional. It's 

just click, I hear, and then, you 

Erin & AK: Yeah, except nobody would know my references because I listen to really old country. So nobody would listen to

Cinnamon: but when you said Dax and the Joker, 

Erin & AK: [01:16:00] Yeah. Yeah. some bluegrass and let's just bust out the Ernest Tubb and Lefty Frizzell and like Kitty Wells.

I, I'm from Guernsey County originally. So if that gives you any indication. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Cinnamon: Yep.

Erin & AK: Friends! All right, my dear. We thank you so much for taking the time with us. We wish you the best of luck on your adventure this weekend in Columbus, Ohio. And obviously, always. We are your friends and got your back.

However, we can support you. Please let us know. Thank you so much for having me. I, this is the first live In real, in real life, personal podcasts that I've done. And this was fun. I think there's a lot of simpatico I'm here for it. So thank you. The audio might suck, but we still got to be together.

All right. I'm going to push stop real [01:17:00] quick. I'll let this stop.