The Elephant in the Room: Age and Gender in a Tradition Bound Male Dominated Industry

EP73-The Elephant in the Room

Cinnamon: Criticizing younger generations is a reoccurring theme through history, reflecting the generation gap and societal changes.  ​

Erin: Your age should not matter as well as your gender. 

Cinnamon: Do you think that us Gen Xers are jealous that we never thought of saying, you can't talk to me like that? If we've been hazing individuals who are young. Or female in the industry, stop. 

Erin: this woman holds this particular position because she's smart and able to do it.

Cinnamon: these biases are changing the world in a negative way.

Erin: It's more challenging when the field is dominated by men. They're not taken seriously, or there's judgment, or rumor that, the only reason they are where they are is because they spread their legs.

Cinnamon: We've entrapped men in this cycle of here's your baseline of masculinity that you have to meet. otherwise, we're going to start making judgments about you, we have

Erin: All these boys growing into men who were really never taught, what does that look like?


Cinnamon: It's the first responder, the first to get the call, the first on scene, greeted by God knows what, pushed beyond the limits that they don't even set. Then what happens? You're listening to After the Tones Drop. We're your hosts. I'm Cinnamon, a first responder trauma therapist. 

Erin: And I'm Erin. I'm a first responder integration coach. 

Cinnamon: Our show brings you stories from real first responders, the tools they've learned, the changes they've made, and the lives they now get to live.

Erin: Today's episode might be a little bit taboo. I think it kind of depends on what side of the fence you're on, and also your experience depending on how long you've been with your department, how old you are, what gender you are, so on and so forth.

But Cinnamon and I were having a conversation we received a email a while back from a young lady who is a corrections officer. this had us talking a lot about gender roles, ageism, about what that looks like in the first responder world.

We've talked a lot of times about how, obviously this is a masculine dominant industry. We're not naive to that. And yet, as desperate as folks are to have the staff they need to cut the overtime so that people aren't killing themselves working all this overtime, even though some of them love to work the overtime, there's still this nitpickiness to how especially the younger generation may or may not show up. There's just an interesting [00:01:00] Dichotomy. , That was the word I'm looking for? 

Cinnamon: we're having a staffing. Issue across the country. maybe even in the world. when I hear similar stories, whether it be about age or sex, I wonder, is anyone else paying attention to how these two things are coexisting very problematically? Like, why are we having this conversation on top of having the conversation around staffing shortages and exhaustion from overtime that's been mandated, or not mandated, but somebody has got to pick it up.

And then we turn around and the same people bitching, justifiably, I will say, it can be exhausting, I'm sure. But then we hear this shit you know, all those movies where they backhand somebody or slap them across the face to shake them out of the shock and they're like, okay, now you're back to, let's have a conversation.

that's what this makes me think of. And this really works me out because I'm like, can you get out of your own way people?

Erin: No. 

Cinnamon: you hear these [00:02:00] younger kids are lazy, they're not motivated to work, 

Erin: They don't respect Mm hmm. 

Cinnamon: And then you hear from the younger people, like this email you're about to read or from people that I've heard from who, are curious and want to learn, but every time they ask questions that may start with why, So they can understand better automatically interpreted as you're questioning my authority no I'm here to learn If they're not willing to explain to me so I can learn Why we do the things that we do or how we do the things that do their perception is the people at that agency do not feel that they are worth their time and energy.And that's the exact reason that somebody would go to another agency, 

Erin: yeah. What's interesting, too, is when you're filling out an application at most jobs, there's usually some kind of question of, what is a trait about you that makes you a strong employee? And one of the best traits is I'm willing to learn. I'm willing to ask questions. I'm willing to be curious and grow.

[00:03:00] And I want to. Be the best I can be in this job, you know, it's usually something along those lines. So I know that I've been a manager in the past. I've owned a business in the past and I wanted my folks to come to me and say, I'm not sure about this or, Hey, why do you do this this way? I'm curious. that was awesome.

Cinnamon: I'm like, look at this person, a go getter wanting to learn. So I don't understand why this is so different here. I would also throw out Negative. response to learning through curiosity. I want them to be asking questions and not just understanding step one, step two, step three, but I want them to understand why we do that.

And I think about as soon as you take them out of that step one, step two, step three, it. if they don't understand those foundational concepts of the why, who knows what could go wrong? Right?

Erin: that was what I was just thinking.

Cinnamon: so the idea that we slap somebody's hand away [00:04:00] as if they were touching a hot burner rather than asking questions just doesn't make sense to me.

 And I think about well, what if another senior member is there? And that senior member they may feel is judging how they handle that. maybe as an OIC, I'm thinking if I don't externally take control back in this situation and put this kid in his place or her place, then this senior officer, my peer is going to think that I don't know how to keep my people in check.

Erin: I think this is where it gets a little bit tricky because perhaps it does depend on the scenario and situation too. Because think about it, sometimes we don't have time to explain why. In that moment, in a lot of ways, they don't, 

but they might not actually have time to explain why. There's time being burned up by the explanation. However, on the flip side, it could be something where, Hey, when we were at this particular call and this [00:05:00] happened, Why? Did we do things this way? I want to understand why we did things this way, I think maybe there's time and place too and Lord knows when we're operating in a heightened sense of stress and we're in action sometimes we just kind of like fly off the handle and not have time to mess around. I'm just trying to play devil's advocate here,

Cinnamon: Yeah. And I agree with that. I say this all the time on here, time and place, right? Like if I'm outside of a structure fire and my supervisor tells me what hose to grab, I'm not going to go, why that one and not this one. I don't know of any young person that is going to do that, but I can definitely see someone as like, they're still on scene and maybe it's now under control And they're like, Hey, so when we did this or you had us do that, my first thought was to go do this.

And then you said this. can you help me understand? [00:06:00] I just want to be good at my job. And I think a lot of these older folks Are hearing it as disrespect I'm not saying everyone is doing this because those of you who are like, I don't treat these young adults or, the women, differently.

Well, kudos to you, but these conversations we're having, it's not an anomaly. this is what's happening all the time. my brother in law who is, technically, a very old Gen Xer. We had this conversation about the complaints about the younger generation.

And I ended up saying, do you think that maybe us Gen Xers are a little bit jealous that we never thought of saying, Hey, you can't talk to me like that. That's not okay. we didn't have parents that taught us that we could say those things, but you better believe we taught the millennials how to say those things.

We taught those [00:07:00] millennials that their private parts are their private parts and nobody's allowed to touch them. that includes ball tapping, We had these experiences and then we taught our children so they didn't have the exact experience that we did, they were in touch with their emotions, their mental health, 

it wasn't just children are here to, what is

Erin: Be seen and not 

heard.

Cinnamon: I was in the dollar store yesterday and this young girl, trying to convince her mom that these dog and cat nail clippers were for people. And I just looked at mom and 

she's like, I know it's not worth the fight.I don't even care if it was a dollar 25. Can you imagine? Our parents saying, I went ahead and bought the thing so I didn't argue with my kid. Hell no! If I wanted something and they told me no and I kept going, I was flat on my back on the grocery store floor.

there was no fight to be had, 

Erin: I am a Gen Xer. I do teach my kids how to use their voice, set boundaries and all of that. AndI would [00:08:00] not buy my kid the nail clippers. 

Cinnamon: yeah, I'm looking at this chart. the baby boomers, the youngest ones are 60, the Gen Xers, the youngest ones are 44, Millennials, the youngest ones are 28. These people that we were complaining about last decade, are completely grown up, right?

Now we have these Gen Zs, the youngest ones are 12, but at the same time, the oldest ones are 27. And then, we have The alphas where that generation starts at 2013. So, you know, they're 11, 

Erin: So my kids, 

Cinnamon: right? And the way we've raised our kids is so different, but at the end of the day, what we're talking about is being respectful of those willing to do the job that very few are willing to do anymore.

Erin: yeah, despite their age or gender. And that's why I want to read this. email from [00:09:00] our friend 

Cinnamon: Please. Yes. Absolutely.

Erin: this came in a little while ago and I'm going to leave some parts out to protect this person's anonymity and confidentiality, you know, People usually don't want these things to get back to their boss just in case, right?

I attended the first responder mental health conference and you guys had a booth set there. I was very inspired by After the Tones Drop and have been listening ever since. I have a proposal for an episode. Dun dun, so here we are, right? I am a 20 year old corrections officer, and I have always been belittled for the fact that I am so young, and on top of that, that I am female.

I have a very interesting point of view on this topic. I have a very strong opinion that even if you are so young, if you have a heart for what you do, your age should not matter as well as your gender. I have always preached this to the young crown of officers, that your age does not matter and that the people who you are going to spend a very large amount of your time with should not have the mindset that just because we are [00:10:00] so young, we are not capable of doing our jobs well.

I started this field right out of high school at 18 I know that people treating me differently because of my age or gender has affected the way I work and my drive to make the facility or world better. I truly do think that if we have This large shortage of officers and dispatchers, or any type of law enforcement job, then we very well need to bring attention to the fact that we would not have it as much if we all were treated the same regardless of age, gender, or race.

Beliefs or anything that makes you stick out amongst the crowd. The older generation tends to scare the new away. And I think that bringing that awareness into people's eyes might just change how few applicants would get into facilities. I know if it was not for one officer I worked with. I would not be in this field anymore. I hope this makes sense. We need to be more open to young people working this field. If we do not fix these small issues, who knows where law enforcement will be in 20 years from now. I [00:11:00] want to be some light on this topic. There you go. which is. So much of what you just touched on. 

Cinnamon: So here's a little background on Cinnamon, the clinician, getting my MSW was actually my second master's degree.

and it was a second career. My first master's degree was in women's and gender study. my undergraduate experience and my first run at graduate school really focused on ageism, sexism, homophobia, racism, all of those things. I got to see firsthand and study how these experiences, concepts, biases were changing the world.

in a negative way, How they were causing the underperformance and the under contribution of people who had so much to offer to the world. And to hear this, it's like, [00:12:00] yep. So yes, I may have that thought, but this is the other part of me. This is why I never thought I would ever work with men because I had this concentration in this other area come to find out.

I do love me a good, crowd of male dominated industries. but yeah, to me, this is heartbreaking. Like, I see the sheer exhaustion from all of this overtime right now, the fact that I hear people say all the time, you know, we used to have two spots for 500 applicants and now we're literally having to poach people from other departments. We're doing something wrong, right? So if we've been hazing or mistreating or mocking or, dismissing individuals who are new or young. Or female in the industry, perhaps one way to work towards solving this problem is to stop.

Erin: Just stop. and that's the thing though, this is not a new conversation. [00:13:00] This is a conversation that's been going on for decades with women in the work field and the work industry, and I'm not going to go down that rabbit hole. But it's even more challenging when the field that the woman is working in is dominated by men. we hear this with folks in the military. We hear this with folks in high level positions in different corporations, you know, where they're not taken seriously, or they're treated like the piece of meat, or there's an expectation that they should behave a certain way because they're a woman, or there's judgment, or Or criticism or rumor that, the only reason they are where they are is because they spread their legs or screwed the board member or whatever the thing is, right it can't possibly be that this woman holds this particular position because she's smart and able to do it.

Just like these women who choose to be first responders in whatever capacity just because they're [00:14:00] women doesn't mean they're not really good at their job and they can't be just as. powerful smart productive and accomplished as everybody else.

Cinnamon: And maybe because they are women, they are bringing something that the men can't bring. it's really interesting to hear how women law enforcement officers talk about what happens, how the dynamic changes when they arrive on scene. Perhaps instead of saying they're just as good, it could even look like here is how they are better.

There is an opportunity for here are the things that they do better. And I don't think that in that particular example, a lot of male LEOs would even disagree with that, right? Like they can see that there is an added value.

I know for me, I didn't disrespected when I worked in the prison in the same way it was yes, ma'am, no ma'am, Because was like their mom or their sister, you know what [00:15:00] I 

Erin: That's what I was thinking though. that's something that women do bring is that maternal compassion. It's just ingrained in us, that ability to be nurturing, the ability to be vulnerable, 

Cinnamon: I mean you're exactly right and we have the freedom to be compassionate in a way that men don't So if men brought an element of Not paternal right because we see a lot of people acting in fatherlike ways and guiding folks but even like our friends Chris Perry and and Rocco B have talked about that, but I think that If they were to act in maternal ways that are different, that would not fly. 

they don't have that same freedom. Like women can be tough, but we've entrapped men in this cycle of like, here's your baseline of masculinity that you have to meet. otherwise, we're going to start making judgments about you, about your sexuality, [00:16:00] about your masculinity, etc. 

Erin: Yeah. Here's this baseline of masculinity that you have to meet and We're not going to show you how to do that.

Cinnamon: Right. We're gonna tell You to just do what I said.

Erin: Do what I say because I said so. That's why. one of the programs that we went through talks heavily about how there is not that transition into manhood that there once was through ritual or whatever and how it's changed. So we have all these boys growing into men who were really never taught, well, what does that look like?

Cinnamon: They're initiated through violence. Verbal or physical?

Erin: yeah, just flat out fear.

Cinnamon: Yeah.

Erin: This isn't to say that if you're a man, you fall in this category, if you're a woman, you fall in this category, if you're young, you fall in this, if you're old, you fall in this. No, we're not saying that because there is many, many exceptions.

However, We are clear based on the conversations we have with folks that [00:17:00] this is a common conversation. I am female I'm young. They don't treat me like everybody else. They treat me like I'm a dumb little kid. In fact, I just put a review up on our new Copper Warrior website that somebody had given us.

And one of the things that this person said was, you get us. You don't treat us like a kid. And I was like, that's interesting. It was something like that. 

Cinnamon: You have to share that with me. I'd like to see 

Erin: yeah, you don't treat us like a bunch of little kids. And I thought that is an interesting thing to feel important.

Like you feel seen through that because I treat you like a grown up. And don't talk down to you. So then it's like, well, where in your life have you been talked down to? And then we get into attachment styles and aces and then here we are again. 

Cinnamon: I remember seeing this on, social media a long time ago and I went to pull it up one of the things I think is an opportunity for us [00:18:00] to learn from history and go, huh, is I will tell you, I was the person wearing the clothes. That people were wondering why the hell were kids wearing that I had facial piercings.

I did things that I know the generation above me was like face palming. whatever that is. 

Erin: Thank God it was before necktats became cool

Cinnamon: Yes, that would be it. earlier this summer, I saw a picture on social media I was like, I cannot believe she let her daughter leave the house like that.

And she was even with her, that wasn't even an outfit that she wore when she snuck out. after I said it, I was like, Oh my God, when did this happen? this is my first time being an old lady, However, the history. of criticizing younger generations is a reoccurring theme through history, reflecting the generation gap and societal changes.

And it can go back as early as the ancient Greeks and Aristotle. [00:19:00] So Aristotle took a dim view of the young saying they have exalted notions and hopeful disposition that makes them think they are equal to great things. So exalted, the definition is placed at a high, powerful level, held in high regard.

The example would be in a state of extreme happiness, but I think it's the in place of high level. So it goes back to just another example, all the way back to Aristotle. These kids just. they're too big for their britches,

Erin: Right.

Cinnamon: But it's the same conversation, generation after generation. We are not experiencing a generation that is unique. We are just the idiots that haven't learned from history. And so we keep mistreating the people younger than us

Erin: We're just the old people.

that didn't know better before we got old. But then there's also the magical thinking of being younger, right? the thing that I think [00:20:00] as we get older, we try to get back to being more innocent, more curious, being more inquisitive, all of those things, being more, not risk taking, but like, God, my brain is not working.

They have the freedom to disregard perceived judgment or let go of the fear. yeah. Oh, the word I was thinking of was, spontaneous. 

Cinnamon: Okay.

Erin: now, of course, that's kind of looking more at even younger generations than the folks that we're talking about that are going into this career. but you're right. This has been a common conversation and we have talked various times about the Millennials and Gen Z ers are the ones that are coming and saying, Not today. We're not doing this anymore. We're gonna be the interruption here. and us older people are like, Wait a minute. Who said you could do that? Nobody told me I could do that.

Cinnamon: I allowed myself to get hazed. I should be [00:21:00] allowed to haze you. I've been waiting until I got to the top to be able to do this to others.

Erin: Mm hmm.

Cinnamon: But at the same time, even as far back as Aristotle, they were saying these kids. think they're too big for their britches. So it's not like this is the first generation.

It's almost like we get amnesia at a certain point or we tolerate so much. one of my favorite movies to watch with my husband is Dazed and Confused. I think you and I have had this conversation a couple of times, how, Ben Affleck's character is terrifying to me.

He is that aggressive senior that has like murder in his eyes, and if you try to stop him from paddling when he's waited four years. To finally be the incoming senior that has the paddle and now the principal calls all the students to the auditorium and Says we have decided that this is abusive.

This is [00:22:00] hazing This is inappropriate and we're not going to permit it anymore. Can you imagine? His rage. I have been waiting for this. I even know the kid that I want to go after and now you're telling me I can't. So to me, that kind of parallels that idea of. I got ball tapped in the firehouse and I did not, um, that's the

idea. 

Erin: Wait, what? When did you got balls?

Cinnamon: I got ball tapped in the firehouse and I put up with it if I complained about it, I would have been ostracized, but now I get disciplined for it because, one of these young punks, ratted me out what is the world coming to? well, let's talk about how we spent a whole lot of time once it was revealed that sexual abuse was oftentimes going unreported and happening at 

huge rates without us being aware of it. [00:23:00] Gen Xers and maybe even young baby boomers started teaching their children about no one gets to touch your private parts, period. so now we have these young adults or adults who are like, yeah, those are my private parts. And I was taught.

Cinnamon: no one can touch them, but we want other coworkers to be the exception. It just seems ludicrous when you break it down like that, I do want to circle back around to one of the examples that I talked about, because it's one thing to, Bring awareness to it. one thing, to bitch about it.

Cause you know me, injustice is like nails on the chalkboard when people are mistreated. I was a bullied kid and I will tell you nothing will make me angrier than somebody using the upper hand to torment somebody else. 

Erin: Tell me you're a social worker without telling me you're a social worker.

Cinnamon: Yeah, I'm like that whole like, um, here is, an example that I kind of,said it before, but [00:24:00] I want to say it again.Erin is. the officer in command of the scene.

And after it's all over and wrapping up I approach her as a younger, member of the department. I ask a question out of curiosity. And I'm coming from a place of, I want to learn.

I want to be better at my job. as a person. an employee that can contribute to this department and I respect you enough for it to be you that I came to and asked because I believe that you have the answer. So now Erin, who's standing there with her, buddy who may not be an officer, but their peers.

And Erin says back to me. I've been doing this for 20 years, just do what I say, quit asking questions and just do it. now I've got an audience of two. Erin's got the peer that is her age that is watching her decide how she's going to [00:25:00] handle being questioned by a youngin, then there's the youngin who's asking the question. maybe Erin and her peer hear that as disrespect or unwillingness to follow orders, challenging, authority or questioning somebody's knowledge and they're going to come at it a certain way, So their perception of the situation is what is feeding into that. Now, I'm the youngin on the other hand.

I trust that you know the answer and you will teach me. I am coming from a place of curiosity and a desire to be better at my job. And I get shut down. you tell me to shut my mouth and quit asking questions and go do what I was supposed to do. There's likely at least two things that will happen, maybe more.

At least when I was like, well you're a dick, fuck you, and I walk away. The other one is, they don't think I'm worthy enough to [00:26:00] teach? Why do they not think that I'm worth the time it would take to answer that question? What is it about me? or maybe what is it about them if I know that I'm not the only one that gets that treatment?

if it's, what is it about them? Maybe they can't answer that question. Maybe they don't know. Maybe they're just doing it because they were told to do it. Because how many times do we see the answer being, well, because that's the way we've always done it. and I've said this in a training before, if everybody is feeling attacked and gets on the defense, we have no offense and there is no forward motion. 

Erin: Yeah. 

Cinnamon: Hmm. 

Erin: Yeah. There was something that you did say and it made me start thinking about, because you used me as, the commanding officer, which thank you. I've always wanted to have that opportunity.

Cinnamon: You're welcome. You're so authoritarian. 

Erin: but I started thinking about what. Conversations might be going through my head in that moment when I respond that way I Immediately go to this [00:27:00] conversation of well What do they think that I don't know is this a test?

is there another reason that they might think they can come to me? What is it about me that doesn't deserve that kind of respect? That they would just trust what I say? Like, so there's a whole nother side of what could the other person be thinking besides, Hey, I'm a senior officer and do it, you know, more internally based on their own judgment or internal conversations, that would cause them to be in the defense.

A lot of these folks, surprise, surprise, we've talked about it before, individuals that choose first responders as their career had a pretty challenging upbringing where they were being, questioned or punished or everything else. 

Cinnamon: A low self esteem oriented identity.

Erin: right.

Cinnamon: So they might be. kind of already pre conditioned to the first place to go is why are they challenging me and not thinking I'm good enough?

Erin: Mm hmm. Yep. Yeah. and at the end of the [00:28:00] day, I think what is important. is to remember that we're all human beings doing the best that we can. this isn't like, Hey, let's go after the senior officers. Let's show them that they're wrong. Right? This isn't about being right or wrong. This is about times have changed and we're all human beings and we're all dealing with experiences in life that can be challenging, 

and just being able to see that everybody has Their own level of experiences that we can't see and try to be understanding and compassionate will go a real freaking long way 

Cinnamon: I would also say that this episode can potentially generate an infinite amount of, yeah, buts, we do debriefings afterwards, and we identify what went right and what went wrong and how do we do better. And so it's not like we don't do that. I feel like so many times when we share information, with organizations they want to, yeah, but [00:29:00] us.

I'm like, I'm a messenger. I'm not making this shit up, I am sharing information. Well, and, and I think I still am a little bit baffled by This desire to tell me why What I am saying doesn't count or is incorrect. And I'm like, listen, I'm hearing it from your people. So you don't have to convince me of anything.

I'm just the messenger. whether that is the people in your department or the people in the, service nationwide, 

I'm just sharing the information. please don't try to convince me. That they are wrong. this is an opportunity for you to hear what perhaps sometimes they are not willing to share with you because you hold the power. And. I've never seen a retaliation policy that's been written in a way that makes it impossible for people to retaliate. even if we don't see it as [00:30:00] retaliation, if you bruise my ego, I might still come after you and have that blind spot myself, right? So I encourage anyone who's hearing this, who is compelled to roll their eyes or to yabba what we're saying, we're not right there.

So you can't yeah, but us directly, but I would just encourage you to take a minute and Hear what we're sharing and see where you're contributing Either to the ongoing problem or a solution and while I'm sure you can think of many Examples of how you didn't do this. Great. Are there examples Opportunities or times that you could have done? more or better in mentoring the younger folks or females coming in . Cause I, I don't want to lose that in the mix. My heart is hurting right now. Like I want to cry. I just, I'm like, stop being so mean. Right? Like I just, I don't [00:31:00] understand why being mean is even part of this. can you think of another industry, like can you imagine all of like the IT guys of some corporate office, like just tapping each other in the ball sack and it not being weird? What is it about these fields that we've made them the exception where it's okay? I'm like, we're not in fraternity houses. But that's what it feels like. And I don't know, I just, I feel like we're already all hurting so much. Why are we trying to make each other hurt more?

Erin:  Thank you for joining us for today's episode of After the Tones Drop. Today's show has been brought to you by Whole House Counseling. As a note, After the Tones Drop is for informational purposes only and does not constitute for medical or psychological advice. It is not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Please contact a local mental health professional in your area if you are in need of any assistance. You can also visit after and click on our resources tab for an abundance of helpful information. And we would like to give a very special thank you and shout out to Vens Adams, Yeti, and Sanda for our show's music.