The Firefighters Daughter: With Kerrie Murphy

EP14-The Firefighters Daughter

[00:00:00]
Erin: Carrie, we are so thrilled that you decided to join us today. And just like a lot of our guests, we got to meet at a conference where, advocates and first responders alike come together and put their brains together and learn about mental health in the first responder world. support each other and create networking connection.

it was really good to be there and to have so many Oh yeah, it's fun. It creates such an interesting buzz, that, and the thing is that particular conference was unique compared to some of the others we've been to because it seemed like it was almost foreign for a lot of those folks that were attending that conference. Oh, I've never heard any of this before.

day one was a little quiet and reserved, and then day two, people were like, starting to get into the flow. So that was really cool that happened. But, but yeah, so you aren't a first responder. You are here as a professional, like us. Can you tell us a little bit about what you do and who you're with? Why that's important to you,

[00:00:57] Kerrie: Yeah. I work in Michigan. have a practice,pretty much just for first responders. I saw the need started working at a place called Encompass, which is a employee assistanceAnd, And, they have a division called Backing the the Badge. And that's how I started working specifically with first responders.

 Different departments around the area would contract with us for services and. I was able to work with them probably. Half the time, and I realized that I really was passionate about this population and I wanted to do this all the time. what was it 

[00:01:33]
Erin: about this particular profession that you felt so passionate about it and knew that this was your calling so much so that you created your own practice just like cinnamon did

[00:01:43]
Kerrie: Yes, I grew up around first responders. My dad was a firefighter 38 years, on a department here near Grand Rapids, Michigan. And, I loved everything about being a firefighter's kid. we would spend a lot of time at the fire station.

my dad was in part paid on call for all of those 38 years. And, he would leave dinners, he would leave band concerts, he would leave Christmas, he would, run out the door whenever he got the call in the middle of the night, whatever. And that was just part of our life. And I remember I was probably 4 years old and my mom was at some kind of class.

My grandma was busy and my dad threw me in the car. And that was back in the day when they had their gear in the car and he would, just show up right to the fire scene. They didn't go to the station first to get on the truck. And so he pulled up to this apartment complex that was on fire and he said, stay in the front seat.

Don't leave. So I got to, watch everybody work and that was my life. we did praise. We were. On fire trucks and parades and work. At the 4th of July celebration as a family and. Have everyone over afterwards to our pool and it was just a real community of. People that, Came together and supported each other and grew up together. Now, 1 of them is the chief. At the department that my dad was on, currently the chief. 

[00:02:59]
Erin: one of the kids that you grew up with as the chief? full circle 

[00:03:02]
Kerrie: Yeah. Yeah,and we're still good friends It's something I'm used to. It feels like home. I'll ride my bike past a, fire station down the street and I'll smell the diesel truck and I just love it. it's part of my life from growing up. So I grew up with that, and my dad didn't always handle things well. he had a lot of anger. He had a temper. And I guess I didn't really understand it until later. as I became a mental health professional, and really started years and he was in the fire at a time just didn't.

Open up, you didn't talk about and you handled it on your own. He handled it in house, peers and I think that really saved him, but. He kept a lot in, and there was a lot that he never did talk about with us, I for me, noticing thatI had a brother as well,

who wanted to be like my dad, and followed in his footsteps, and he became a firefighter at the same department. He was a firefighter for almost 11 years, before he passed awayand he's really my why, I'm sure we'll get into moreof his story throughout our talk today, but, he took his life in 2012, and so he's really why I do what I do today, he kind of had the same mentality as my dad, I don't need help, I don't know.

Want help. maybe he wanted help. but he didn't think it was okay. It wasn't something that was accepted. He Didn't want to talk about it with his peers. He was afraid He didn't want to be seen as weak. I feel like that's the culture, at least It has been, in the past First responders help everyone else, and they don't need help They're strong and capable and I think what I try to do now is reach out to first responders and let them know that they're human too and that it's okay to need help and there is help available. So that's really how I got passionate, about what I do today is through watching my dad and my brother struggling with life and the job. And then it just all culminated for him. he used alcohol to cope. that became a problem. He had some consequences from that.

And an engagement that failed. And, another relationship that was not going well. the week that he did this. And, I feel like, the alcohol This is the factor in making that decision. I don't think it was planned for him. he certainly wouldn't have done it.

At home, where everybody that knows responded to the call.  So I believe it wasn't planned. I think it was a split second decision he made. Very low point, intoxicated state. Unfortunately, I've heard similar stories, 

[00:05:38]
Erin: yeah of course I relate to your story in a lot of ways not having father who was a firefighter but losing someone close to me In a similar fashion, who also struggled with addiction and, alcohol and isn't that the way? Isn't that the way that so often folks will use that as a way to set the stage for the rest of their life, what their calling actually is.

and it's unfortunate for those who are left behind and confused and don't understand. And so it's fantastic when people can use it for good. And so I acknowledge you and I'm so sorry to hear about your brother and I'm also so thrilled that you are able to tell his story so that other folks can say, yeah, I've been there. I get that. And, that's how it works. yeah. 

[00:06:30]
Kerrie: Thank you. That's, been important to me and it's been a really long journey. I was in therapy for 8 years. Before I was able to talk about this openly and share it with others as a way of trying to help others. I am grateful that I'm at this point where, yeah, I think he would want me to share his story. It would help somebody else not go down. 

[00:06:50]
Cinnamon: I'm curious, and with the caveat of, we'll see if it can stay, feel able to be as honest, as you feel comfortable, but I'm wondering how your father reacted to your brother's suicide and what his take is either now if he's still living or, afterwards,being one of those guys that didn't really talk about it and just had to handle it on his own.

And then, to have the pride of my son is following in my footsteps where now we see a lot where people are saying, I don't want my children to do this. but that would have been an interesting component happening within your family dynamics as well obviously you aren't him, but to be able to share what you do know about what it meant for, a firefighter to lose their son who followed them in their footsteps, doing something, that he had supposedly been able to successfully, manage on his own in the ways that he may define as successful.

[00:07:51]
 Kerrie: My dad was the only one there the night that this happened. My brother lived with my parents, and my mom was actually staying with me. I lived a over an hour away at the time, and I had three small kids, including a four month old baby, and I had strep throat, and she had come to stay with me that week so it was just my dad and brother at home. And, I don't have all the what happened that night, because my dad won't share them. he wouldn't share them, I should say. my dad did pass away last year. and I feel since he passed away, and it was not, it was, a surgery, but he had an outpatient surgery, that, He ended up bleeding It was not something that we expected, but it was not related to the mental health.

But, I feel since he passed away, I feel a little bit more freer, to be honest, about talking about it, because it was something that we, were not to talk about. And, My mom is still living, so it's just my mom and I now. And, she doesn't even know really what happened to her child.

And for a while I was very angry about that. And that's a lot of what I had to process in therapy. Was being able to accept that my dad was not going to share with me what I wanted to know. And being okay with that, And it took years and took like I said, a lot of work on my part, but I was able to get to point.

And when my dad passed away, we were in a really good place. but it did create a lot of Emotional, Complications in our family, would say. my mom loved my dad and my mom wanted to Support him and honor wishes. And I did it at times and then there would be times be like, that's not fair.

[00:09:30]
Kerrie: you need to tell us what really happened. And he said, no, I'm going to take it to my grade. And I feel like that's an accurate response from a man who spent his lifetime. Not talking about his own stuff and that was how he dealt with it. I think that's okay. That's all he knew. I've come to a place where I've accepted that and that's how he knew to cope.

And dad never used alcohol or drank or turned to that. I think his coping mechanism was, to stuff it in and try to push it down and not do it. and I think that's why he had So, much anger. and it's such a temper at times,because know if that answered your question, but That's pretty much, yeah. 

[00:10:07]
Cinnamon: That's your answer. 

[00:10:09]
Kerrie: He was devastated by it. I do know that my dad felt very responsible.

[00:10:14] Erin: Yeah. Which probably made him even more quiet about it. 

[00:10:19]
Cinnamon: And it's like giving the details of his own failure by giving you the details of what happened, what conversation, 

 of course, one might think it's like, the logistical details, but what popped into my mind after my first instinct being like frustrated or angry for you, right?

I'm like, Oh, but this is the first I'm hearing of it. eight years later, kudos to you for working through that. But given, what we know about the older generation of firefighters. I could see scenario in which he may not have been able to forgive himself for the words that he said in the time before. don't be a this and pull yourself up.

[00:11:02]
Kerrie: Yeah, yes. yes. and I think you're spot and, after my brother died, he didn't want to celebrate father's day. He was very reluctant to be celebrated, and I think you're absolutely correct that he. I felt a lot of guilt and responsibility, for the choice that my brother made. Yeah, and I think any parent would, no matter what. I think that's a common thing when a parent loses their child in such a way, whether it's so closely connected or not. Parents often blame themselves and say, what could I have done differently? What did I miss? Or how did I make this happen? Or whatever.

[00:11:34]
Erin: That's, how we do. And so I can imagine that it was very challenging for. Your father and your family to have gone through something like this and it's interesting speaking of children What I was thinking about was when you said yeah you know dad had his stuff in the car and we just go and we'd hang out in the car and watch them put out a fire And to me that feels so like I took my child to do that I feel like that would be very terrifying for them but to you What was your thought like, Dad just went in and did this. did it feel scary? I'm just curious because it just says a lot about how things may develop even as a small child, the daughter of a firefighter. And I know that we have people that listen that are children of firefighters and law enforcement. And so I'm curious what that was like for you.

[00:12:22]
Kerrie: I don't remember being scared. it was the 80s.

[00:12:25]
Cinnamon: You're like, everything was exciting, nothing was fear. 

[00:12:28]
Kerrie: Everything was exciting. No, there's a picture actually,At my parents house that I just noticed the other day and, My dad is actually holding my brother and then he's chatting with my mom. And I'm probably running around and it was a controlled burn and they're standing like, right next to the home that's burning and they're just chatting and he's holding this little baby boy and. Yeah, it was just part of our life. I feel like it was, normalized for us because we did go to control burns. My mom would take the video camera and we, film, I don't know, I guess that's just what we did as a family for fun. But, I love I like, adrenaline junkieand so I like going fast in cars.

And so that was super fun for me to throw that light on top. Put the siren on and we would go through all the traffic lights. It was great. It was never something that felt scary to it's just kind of part of our life. That's what my dad did. yeah, it did shape me as, a young child. 

[00:13:21]
Erin: that's good. 

[00:13:22]
Cinnamon: I could see where going to live controlled burns, that probably normalized being on the fire ground, because my first thought was, you just watched your dad run into a burning building. That seems In a silo, that would be very scary, but if you were used to seeing dad run into burning buildings and dad came out safely every time, it might be a little bit different.

[00:13:46]
Kerrie: Yeah,

[00:13:47] Cinnamon: yeah, but it was the 80s.

[00:14:02] Kerrie:I do remember. what he smelled like when he came home and to me, the smell of a firefighter that comes back from the fire is actually comforting because it meant my dad was home safe. that's kind of weird,  Not at all, actually.I think  that's what makes me, a good therapist for some of these people because, I get it, I'm not thrown by a lot of stuff and, I like the smell of fire trucks. 

[00:14:11]
Cinnamon: Diesel. I caught when you said diesel. 

[00:14:13]
Kerrie: diesel. 

Yeah. diesel trucks, it's different. it's not all trucks, all diesel trucks, but, fire trucks 

[00:14:20] Erin: I wanted to hear a little bit about, your journey in starting first responders support Which I believe is the name of your private practice in Michigan. 

[00:14:30] Kerrie: Yeah, 

1st responders support. I was actually on vacation with my family and 1 of my coworkers called. Former police officer who was running back in the badge and she said, hey, I have a firefighter. About 45 minutes from you is looking for a therapist and he's been through a couple.

 Do you have your own private practice and. that moment, it was born, I said. Yes. Yes, I do. I was thinking in that moment, like, why wouldn't I see this guy if he needed help? and so that's kind of how it started. I started seeing him, separate from, working with her back in the badge. And, it evolved into, a practice. I was able to, Set up the LLC and, just kind of go from there. So it was a, in the moment thing. I don't know that I had ever thought about it before, but I sensed the need in that moment. And I, was like, yes, Sure. then I talked it through with my husband and I was like, What do you think about me doing this? it was kind of a challenge at first to get all the logistics together. where would I have this practice? We have such a big area, like, where Grand Rapids, reaches really far and I live on the lake shore, And so I wanted to serve, departments and. People out here, but at the same time, I had so many clients in Grand Rapids. I ended up landing in an office space between the 2 and it's kind of a centralized location, it's in Hudsonville, Michigan and, I'm sharing the office, with another woman who has her own private practice. And so Tuesday, Thursday, and every other Friday, I have the office and, it's, that's where I'm at with it right now. but yeah, it's evolving,one of my clients said, Hey, would you come do a training? so I put together a PowerPoint, with a lot of pictures from my dad's, years of firefighting and brother. I, Tell their story, and I talked about the pitfalls of stress and how that can lead to burnout and that can be, how trauma can build up and, I would say it keeps evolving and, that's kind of the short story. 

[00:16:29] Cinnamon: I appreciate the idea of why I started out doing this one thing after this phone call and I like to say we're in the midst of a movement, right? the private practice work that we do, we're the ones that are doing this at the time where There's this big breakthrough, like we know that there have been clinicians, trying to work with this population and have worked with this population for years.

but it's not like just taking a general, population person off the street with anxiety or depression or, bipolar disorder or something like that. there's this uniqueness to this in that we end up wearing a lot of hats because there's only a handful of us. That are trained to be culturally competent.

 And when there's that need and they find those needs for us, right? Like they figure out what they need and then we're asked to do all of those things. And some of them like training, can be a really easy transition. And I think,

I know I'm curious. I would like to hear,if you're curious too, where.

This is going to go next. 

if you're doing trainings, I know we do annual wellness, checks and wellness programming, what do you see as something that people have asked for or asked about that you've offered, that you could see as an emerging need, the further along we get in the movement to decrease and eliminate that stigma.

[00:18:03] Kerrie: With the clients that I've been working with I think the importance of peer support, is something that I have been advocating for and, trying to work on, in my trainings and in my individual sessions, because it's so important for, these first responders to not feel alone. and. I volunteer,the Midwest, Michigan, critical incident stress management team.

And I see the benefit of, those, debriefings and, coming together and openly talking about these calls, these things that affect them that they think shouldn't affect them or, Am I the only one that was affected by this in this way, it gives them an opportunity to talk openly, honestly, and kind of be vulnerable with each other, in a setting that is more comfortable.

 one of the resources I have is a retired battalion fire chief who, is passionate also about changing the culture and, working with, current firefighters,their mental health and well being and just encouraging them that they're not alone and that it's okay to get help. And, just finding those people that are out there trying to advocate for the same thing that I am. There's a organization up in Traverse City, Michigan, Northwest Michigan Peer Network. And I found him on Facebook, and it's,it's a person that is a firefighter that struggled, and. Now, is organizing events and,encourages others to reach out. even some of the departments in my area, I encourage them to all. that your network, because it's not people that they're working directly with, it's people That will get it and understand, but they might not have to worry about.

 And so, definitely the increased peer support, encouraging. first responders to be there for each other. and I think just education, as I do these trainings, I see the looks on our faces, when I share what happened to my brother and.

when I start going through the progression of how stress can build up and. affect you negatively, physically, emotionally, psychologically, and how that leads to the more devastating, conditions of, burnout and PTSD and, just how that can accumulate over the years. And I think a lot of people don't realize that, and I think they don't also realize, what's out there available to them.

the, these that are available that are good, in my area, or, people like us who are. Willing and, able to be there. In a variety of ways to support first responders, 

[00:20:35] Cinnamon: you've mentioned the EAP, in your area that you've worked with. which I believe is separate from backing the badge, correct? They're two different entities or is backing the badge a subset of?

[00:20:48] Kerrie: It's a subset of Encompass, which is a subset 

of All One Health. 

[00:20:53] Cinnamon: Okay, so I have found a lot of times not necessarily as much today because I think we've gone to lengths to do something about this, but we hear a lot that, folks who have tried therapy, who have went through their EAP programs, have not necessarily found it as valuable. As it could have been or as we would want it to be because of a lack of cultural competency in those clinicians when it comes to the first responder world.

 So what do you feel like is from a clinician that does EAP work? What do you think makes the change if I'm only going to get one or three or five sessions? Why does it matter if my clinician understands my job?

[00:21:37] Kerrie: I think it matters, well, it matters, to them that they're understood and not deferred. I think This particular AP and backing badge, they do a really good job of, trying to educate. I know, there was another firefighters. daughter that worked with me,and then a former police officer.so,we had people. In our organization that got it, and there were ones that just wanted to be helpful that, you know, maybe didn't have a lot of experience with first responders. So. Your videos are really helpful. Thank you. Thank you for allowing us have I guess I'm finding as I work with first responders, them being able to talk about, the calls that they go on and, just having someone listen and, say why this was disturbing to them or why it was hard for them, to have somebody that isn't, shocked by that or, to have somebody that understands,You know, their, their humor.a lot of first responders,joke aboutthings that most people would think are very dark. and who understands thatpopulation to roll with that andto, hear them through that, I guess. So, I think what's important to them is having somebody that is there for them,if they're struggling, but also somebody that that really understands them to be able to hear them 

 I love that. Actually, that's what I just wrote down because 

[00:22:50] Cinnamon: I've not heard anyone quite phrase it the way that you did and you nailed it beautifully. They need people who can hear them through that, 

[00:23:00] Kerrie: Yeah. 

[00:23:01] Cinnamon: if that is the dark humor, if that is the vernacular, if that is the ego or the fear of vulnerability, 

[00:23:11] Kerrie: The anger. 

[00:23:12] Cinnamon: there is something special about you and others like you who can move all of the noise to the side that may hang up another clinician, another therapist.

Another person listening and they get focused on that and that you have that edge Where you're like, nope, we're not gonna focus on that joke We're not gonna ask questions about what kind of vehicle that is that you're referring to We hear through that and I think that's just beautifully said. Thank you, Carrie.

[00:23:47] Kerrie: Thank you. And then also, going back to your other question. Now that I've had a chance to process Definitely trying to add clinicians, to what we do,would be. Awesome. And for people like you and me to, educate them, that's something else is train 

clinicians. I don't know.

[00:24:08] Cinnamon: We

[00:24:09] Kerrie: at some 

[00:24:09] Cinnamon: may find a 

collaboration

here Yeah, so that is actually 

on our to do list when we did our annual planning session back in January. The component of like we've been training first responder and departments agencies for a long time, but it I always say We have done a great job with step one, right?

We are educating left and right and they are coming But what we did not prepare for was the numbers and there are just simply not enough of us. And so let's talk later 

about what that can 

look like because I definitely see there being so much value in culturally competent clinicians collaborating to create culturally competent clinicians.

[00:24:58] Kerrie: yes.

[00:25:00] Erin: See, again,

okay, listeners, no accidents here. 

It happens every time. It's so fantastic. let me ask you then based on that, because the resources are so limited and we're in Ohio and you're in Michigan and that's okay because I'm wondering, are you actually accepting new folks?

Are you, in a position where like I know Cinnamon and I, it's there's

[00:25:25] Kerrie: yeah. 

[00:25:26] Cinnamon: 

Or what states are you licensed in?

[00:25:27] Kerrie: I'm licensed only in Michigan. So that makes it easy for me. but yeah, I am accepting clients at the moment, but that changes depending on how many are coming at once I would say with this population, I found that they come and they start to feel better, and then they don't come.

 and so then there's room for somebody else, but, I don't know if it was good that they stopped coming or not. and usually they end up coming back. But,

[00:25:56] Cinnamon: Bingo, 

right? I always say if I've been living at a two and you helped me get to a four, I'm focusing on that. I'm not even thinking about I got all the way from four to ten to get to, but they'll come back because they trust you and they appreciate what you've done for them and that you actually have helped. 

[00:26:19] Kerrie: Yes. 

[00:26:19] Cinnamon: It starts to not feel good anymore. They know where to go and We tell people all the time like just find a therapist and develop a relationship So you're not scrambling or avoiding completely when something does happen. Do you find that's valuable of getting yourself out there and people know who you are, know your name.

So they know who to look for, how to find you when it's their turn. To have 

[00:26:47] Kerrie: Yes. 

[00:26:48] Cinnamon: that brings them in.

[00:26:50] Kerrie: Yes. And because it's such a new practice, I am still working on that. my husband is in a different business and he's like, we got to market you, we got to get you, out there. And I'm like, no, I don't want to do any of that because that's going to happen. The, the opposite effect for this population.

And I know that I need my referrals to come from people that I've already worked with. Or, I know people at departmentsand they can say, hey, I know Carrie and she's okay. it is more about me developing relationships and. And I'm working on that actually thissummer. Cinnamon gave me the idea at the conference to do more ride alongs.

And I'm working on setting those up. Just lots of things going on since I was at that conference. but now that we're settling into summer, I would love to do more ride alongs and just get to know

people in the departments 

around 

my area.

And, but 

[00:27:38] Cinnamon: Go to lunch. 

Go 

eat lunch. Sit at that kitchen table with them. Let them see you and hear you and joke in front of you and see how you respond to that and that goes miles and miles. I 

[00:27:52] Kerrie: thank

 you for that suggestion. 

[00:27:54] Cinnamon: can attest. 

[00:27:55] Kerrie: Yeah. 

[00:27:56] Cinnamon: Yeah, 

we were at this event yesterday. People are going to hear about this event over and over again.

 But, there were just a lot of folks who I got to introduce Aaron to who I've just met over a kitchen table. Or, I haven't met, but,luckily I have a stripper's name. So it makes it a little harder, right? 

 it's 

the unmarketing, right? It's like the happy unbirthday, the unmarketing.

and so it sticks, right? And so to be able to give them a name and a face, and I always say here is a card if you run into somebody who needs this, And what that also could be coded as. Maybe you need this, but there are some people around, and it's both, right? yesterday's not a great example because we gave everybody our card.

[00:28:46] Cinnamon: but I think that a level of familiarity that allows them to feel like they're not just like reaching down in like a price is right bag and not sure what they're going to pull out. even if it's just, I met this person one time, I at least know a little bit, because they love control, right?

They like feeling in control, and so making themselves vulnerable to a blind spot, I don't know who this person is, what they look like, what their voice sounds like, it feels way more risky than oh yeah, I have this card, I remember meeting this person here, 

[00:29:19] Kerrie: 

[00:29:19] Cinnamon: I could reach out, they seem cool, 

[00:29:21] Kerrie: Yes. Yeah, exactly. Or so and so said that she was okay. that's yeah, and that's actually how I've gotten most of my clients, 

[00:29:29] Cinnamon: I think that's common and I think that is really unique in this particular niche, Is that we have probably one of the most untrusting niche populations, and not untrusting in a bad way, like these are the people who are seeing the worst of the worst and protecting us from seeing the worst of the worst and so the idea that they're a little like, skeptical, makes perfect sense.

And so, it takes another's, reassurance, validation, thumbs up, referral, however you want to call it, to be able to break into that, to be able to feel safe to reach out to someone. 

[00:30:02] Kerrie: Absolutely. That's okay.

[00:30:02] Erin: Carrie, do you feel comfortable with us sharing the information to your practice on your show notes? 

[00:30:09] Kerrie: Yeah. 

go ahead. 

[00:30:10] Erin: 

who knows? going to be listening that could be like, I need Carrie,and I want them to be able to have access to you, but we also don't want to inadvertently bombard you.

[00:30:19] Kerrie: Nope. 

[00:30:20] Erin: And then all of a sudden you're like, I don't know, how to do all of these 

people, 

[00:30:24] Kerrie: I'm

 I'm okay with setting boundaries these days, so I'm good. 

I can tell them that I can see them in a couple weeks, but yeah,

it's all good. 

[00:30:33] Cinnamon: Do you

do telehealth?

[00:30:36] Kerrie: I do. Yep. 

[00:30:37] Cinnamon: So, I don't have to be in Grand Rapids. 

I can be like anywhere in the 

mitten. 

[00:30:43] Kerrie: Anywhere in the Mitten or the UP.

[00:30:45] Cinnamon: Okay. Oh, yeah, the up isn't really the That'sthat dangly part of the glove that helps you not lose it

[00:30:53] Erin: The dangly gorgeous part?

[00:30:54] Kerrie: Yes, incredible part that I go to every summer and live up

there. 

[00:30:58] Cinnamon: never been is there a nearby airport because I don't know if I want to drive

[00:31:04] Kerrie: yes, there are airports, but they're not very big. 

[00:31:06] Cinnamon: So that means they're expensive 

[00:31:09] Kerrie: probably one of those, northern ones,

[00:31:11] Cinnamon: because how far is the up from where you are on lake? 

[00:31:15] Kerrie: it's about 4 hours to the bridge. And then, once you go, yeah, to the bridge, and then when you go into the,we love to go to at the top. so it's 9 hours. And then to go to, the Porcupine Mountains, it's hours.

so, 

[00:31:29] Cinnamon: once you get to the bridge... 

You may not even be

50% of 

the way through your journey.

Oh, yeah, I'm gonna need an airport.

[00:31:37] Kerrie: Yeah. 

[00:31:37] Erin: Cinnamon, do you have anything you would like to ask or add before we wrap up today? or Carrie, do you have anything you

[00:31:43] Cinnamon: I do. I got a question because you said it makes it easy and I'm like, oh, this is what makes it hard. You said you're only licensed in Michigan and that's what 

makes it easy. And I'm like, 

[00:31:54] Kerrie: I guess to, to only be one person working, for this particular

[00:31:58] Cinnamon: We are each one person. It is not that much easier 

with those two. But do you have any intention or has it ever crossed your mind because of where your borders are, even Indiana or Ohio 

[00:32:13] Kerrie: yeah, 

[00:32:14] Cinnamon: in another state?

[00:32:15] Kerrie: I've thought about it at the moment where I'm at in my life with kids and, how busy I am already. I have not decided to pursue that at this time, but yeah, it's, it's something to look into. Yeah. 

[00:32:27] Cinnamon: That's where Erin is. 

 She's like, I can only handle one four year old, one nine year old in the state of Ohio. 

[00:32:34] Kerrie: exactly. Yeah, and I have 2 almost teenage girls, 15and 12 this year, and then the son is gone, so I'm okay with just Michigan right now.

[00:32:47] Erin: there's plenty. There's plenty 

[00:32:48] Cinnamon: Yes. 

[00:32:49] Kerrie: There it is, yes. 

[00:32:50] Cinnamon: slogan? There's plenty to do in Michigan. 

[00:32:55] Kerrie: Um,

[00:32:56] Cinnamon: awaits.

[00:32:57] Kerrie: yeah, I don't know. I went through your questions here and, that's what the biggest concern about mental health is, for first responders just absolutely that, the culture of.The stoicism and the, The public's that first responders are not supposed to be affected by. The things that they see on a daily basis and, just look at the statisticshow much trauma, howhow many see compared to the average person on a daily basis.

And it's more than you would see in your

lifetime. 

[00:33:28] Cinnamon: Ironically, we just 

talked about that and let me tell you exactly what that statistic 

is. 

[00:33:34] Erin: his data is correct.

 said he was going to 

[00:33:35] Cinnamon: is 

is 

[00:33:35] Kerrie: in my, it's in

[00:33:37] Cinnamon: in your notes 

it presentation 

Yeah. It says that the typical adult sees one to three traumatic events in their lifetime. in a study on law enforcement, it was To a hundred and sixty five Traumatic events a first responder would see in their lifetime. So we're talking like a hundred times more. 

[00:33:59] Kerrie: Yes. 

[00:34:01] Cinnamon: And with the same wiring that the three of us have, 

[00:34:04] Kerrie: Yes. 

[00:34:05] Cinnamon: they believe that they can shoulder

that. 

[00:34:08] Erin: fine. 

[00:34:09] Kerrie: They're fine. 

[00:34:09] Erin: I'm 

fine.

[00:34:10] Cinnamon: fine. I'm fine. It's fine. 

[00:34:12] Kerrie: Yes. And 

[00:34:14] Cinnamon: I got this.

[00:34:15] Erin: Yeah. 

[00:34:15] Kerrie: They're human, too. 

I just want to say too that, we've talked a lot about firefighters yes, that's where my background originates, but I do have a lot of, police officers who are also fantastic clients. And I would say half of my clientele are police officers.

And one of my best success stories is a police officer. He's a 25 year veteran. Came to me with, he described himself as broken,and he, was on the verge of,Committing suicide and we started working together and, I do, EMDR and I found. a protocol with first responders That works for us and, he responded. Incrediblyto that therapy and, This was really able to go back over the 25 years to these calls that devastated him. And to really see, you know, where he did hisjob. And where he, succeeded instead of focusing on the failures and. He's doing incredible now he's a canine handler and he's training dogs.

He retired in March and to go to the ceremony and. yeah, I just am really grateful that he is where he is today and he's grateful that he reached out and that he had the courage and, you know, that's what gives me hope. That another question you had, what gives me hope is these courageous clients that do reach out and come and they do the hard work and see the benefits.

They live better lives. happier lives. So, 

[00:35:36] Erin: And then they create the ripple 

effect.

[00:35:38] Kerrie: Exactly.

[00:35:39] Cinnamon: Those are your, become your

peers. 

[00:35:40] Erin: Then they can have 

that. 

[00:35:41] Kerrie: And that's exactly what he's doing. He's going out to other officers and telling them what happened to him, and now they're thinking, Wow, I thought you'd help too. 

[00:35:50] Erin: Yeah. Wow. It's so beautiful. 

[00:35:52] Kerrie: Yeah. 

[00:35:53] Erin: Carrie, 

 clearly we're going to be connected moving forward because I think that all three of us have a very similar vision and goal and intent in mind. And there's three of us sitting here and there's not a whole lot more. I mean,I think Molly Jones from the center of excellence said Something like 2, 000 to 2, 600 culturally competent first responder clinicians that they've vetted and like that they believe Actually know their stuff, but That's in the whole entire country. like nothing. 

[00:36:21] Cinnamon: And if there's three 

of us on this call right now, 

[00:36:24] Erin: Yeah

[00:36:24] Cinnamon: hope somebody has 

got hours.

[00:36:27] Kerrie: Yeah. I hear you. 

[00:36:27] Erin: Yeah, so

we really appreciate it and thank you for turning your pain into purpose and really making something so beautiful, For the first responders, for yourself, for your family, what a great message to your children to have experienced the sadness and seeing their mom thrive and doing something beautiful with that.

just so many different things I could, can think of. 

Like mom to mom. I'm 

like, Oh, Yeah. 

All right. 

[00:36:53] Cinnamon: you had mentioned, you feel 

strongly that, your brother would be good with you sharing, his story, your story. But I would go one step further and say that your dad would be incredibly proud if he has not expressed it. and that you are saving or have your hand in saving others lives and making it okay for others to do what no one made it okay for your dad to do.