The Jailhouse "Rock": With Guest William Young

EP48: The Jailhouse "Rock"

00:00:00 William: It was very important for me to put out information and to put out content that is just geared towards correctional officers, because we're like the stepchildren of law enforcement. And the first thing that I realized is there isn't shit out there for us. And the second thing I realized is like, you know, yeah, I'm not contemplating ending my life, but I'm also not living life either. Like, I'm hiding. And that was really bringing me down. We're actually trained to suppress our emotions in the name of professionalism. And sometimes we don't even know that there's anything going on with us. 

00:00:35 William: Those things that we've become accustomed to, really over time kind of erode us emotionally and change who we are. When your whole identity is wrapped up in your work or the only time you feel like yourself is when you're in uniform, that should be a sign that something's wrong. Some of them get it and it's great, some of them don't, but the message is too important. So I lick my wounds for a little bit and then I get back in it, you know? We just all need to know that we're important.

00:01:08 Cinnamon: It's the first responder, the first to get the call, the first on scene, greeted by God knows what, pushed beyond the limits that they don't even set. Then what happens? You're listening to After the Tones Drop. We're your hosts. I'm Cinnamon, a first responder trauma therapist. 

00:01:30 Erin: And I'm Erin. I'm a first responder integration coach. 

00:01:34 Cinnamon: Our show brings you stories from real first responders, the tools they've learned, the changes they've made, and the lives they now get to live

00:01:53 Erin: Quick heads up before we start. We want to acknowledge that some of the content we discuss on our show can be triggering for some listeners. Some of our episodes may touch upon themes like traumatic experiences, PTSD, suicide, and line of duty deaths. We understand that these topics are sensitive and might evoke difficult emotions. If you are currently struggling with your mental health or have experienced traumatic events recently, listen with caution. You may consider taking periodic breaks or skipping the episode altogether. We want to thank you for joining us today. Your dedication to serving our community is inspiring, and we're here to support you in any way that we can. Now, if you're ready to proceed, let's begin.

00:02:38 Erin: Cinnamon, you're starting a trend. What did you just say, William? 

00:02:43 William: That I had to wear my stocking cap, my beanie today because of the kind of, the reputation now that we have and the host of many hats. And I thought When in Rome. Then I should act accordingly. And so here I am sweating because it's 85 degrees in my studio, but I didn't want to be the outcast.

00:03:09 Erin: Oh my gosh. 

00:03:10 Cinnamon: Well, I am flattered. And I will tell you that if you were in Ohio, you would not be sweating. In fact, you would understand the need. And I like to say, if I take a hat off, physically all the way down to my toes, I get cold. 

00:03:29 William: Sure.

00:03:29 Cinnamon: And it's because all of my heat comes out of my crown chakra. And so–

00:03:36 William: That’s very good.

00:03:37 Cinnamon: If I keep it on, I mean I will sleep in them. Like I don't just do this for the show. Like you can knock on my front door anytime 24/7, and you will find me in a hat. 

00:03:51 William: I'm not, listen. I'm not trying to front you. I'm not saying that you are not this stocking cap aficionado. This is not your style. That's not what I'm saying. So you were very, you’re acting very much like correctional staff when I talked to them and I have to say, hey, look guys, I know I've done your job. Okay, like here's my resume. I'm not, so I apologize that I came into your living room on your show and made you feel like you had to justify the–

00:04:17 Cinnamon: I will, Jesus, now I've got to like, backpedal and be like, here, okay, let's be honest. The fact is I'm perimenopausal, my body temperature will not, for the love of God, stay in a 20 degree range. And so I'm either having it on or I'm taking it off. But maybe in 15 years, you can see what the top of my head looks like. 

00:04:41 William: There you go.

00:04:42 Cinnamon: But until then, bucket. I gotta wear it to, bottom. 

00:04:44 William: Yeah, I like it, I like it. 

00:04:46 Erin: I haven't seen you wear your fingerless gloves in a while. So you did rock those all the time. 

00:04:50 Cinnamon: Oh my gosh. I did, I did. I have, finger… I have probably like eight pair of those, of maybe even more. We might be up to 10. Because my hands will get cold, but it allows me to type–

00:05:04 William: Is that your formal wear? Am I not a guest that's important enough for you to dress up and wear all the gloves and all the accessories? 

00:05:10 Erin: The Madonna gloves? 

00:05:11 William: Yeah. 

00:05:12 Cinnamon: No. I mean, this is what I look like when my clients come to my house. 

00:05:18 William: Nice. 

00:05:18 Cinnamon: What you can't see is, my leggings and my jeans that are like indoor-outdoor slippers. And I work out of my house. So when I see people for counseling, they come to my house. And if I were to dress up, it would feel really weird. And so this way it just feels like people are coming over for coffee. And we're all kind of slightly in our pajamas. 

00:05:39 Erin: And they all like it. They like it. 

00:05:41 William: Yes.

00:05:42 Cinnamon: They prefer it this way. I've asked, do you wanna go back to an office? And they're like, no. 

00:05:46 Erin: No. Well–

00:05:48 William: Very good.

00:05:48 Erin: Obviously you all can tell that we're gonna be very entertained today with our guest who is the one and only William Young. I know, we've, like seriously, propped you up, but–

00:06:00 Cinnamon: William the Jailer Young. 

00:06:03 William: Oh, here we go. 

00:06:04 Cinnamon: Like we could turn you into a WWF wrestler. 

00:06:06 Erin: But that's what it sounds like. 

00:06:08 William: You know, a lot of inmates tell me I look like King Kong Bundy. I don't know if you go back that far with wrestling, but yeah, I've been King Kong Bundy. I've been Uncle Fester. I've been every fat white guy, butter being all of them. So yeah, I mean, sticks and stones. Cinnamon, sticks and stones. 

00:06:24 Cinnamon: I can go back and I will tell you, cause many people don't know this, but should, that the father of my Cabbage Patch Kid dolls, Lex Luger. 

00:06:35 William: Oh nice, very good, okay. 

00:06:37 Cinnamon: Every Sunday after church, we'd come, I'd line the dolls up on the sofa and we'd all watch wrestling out of Atlanta. 

00:06:44 William: Nice, very good.

00:06:45 Erin: She just shared this with our listeners a couple days ago. So they are now in the know. And now you too are in the know about her obsession. 

00:06:53 William: Right.

00:06:54 Erin: But anyway, I got real, distracted. But I want to tell– 

00:06:58 William: Sorry, that's what I do. I apologize. I'm sorry. 

00:07:00 Cinnamon: No, the facts are I'm the weirdo and she is the one who likes to point out all my weird things to people who haven't learned them yet. I'm kind of like her show pony. 

00:07:11 William: Sure.

00:07:11 Cinnamon: Like, she's like, guess what this one does?

00:07:14 Erin: Yeah, we all need a show pony, Cin. And you're mine. Congratulations, you made it. But, and really there's not a whole lot of introduction to be done except for the fact that I wanna say, because this is really important, is, you are our first correctional officer that we've had. And I think I shared with you on Facebook, or wherever the heck we connected, Facebook, yeah, was, that it's been so important for us to hear the voice of the correctional officer because it hasn't been heard. It doesn't seem like it has been heard in the way that it needs to be heard. 

00:07:47 Erin: And what makes you so exceptional too, besides the fact that you have like one of the most difficult jobs, is that you have put out a couple of books. One is When Home Becomes a Housing Unit that we neglected to read. But the other one is The Nothing That Never Happened, which we did both read. Yeah, look. 

00:08:06 William: Oh wow, yeah. 

00:08:08 Erin: And for those that can't see– 

00:08:09 Cinnamon: Wisdom up in here.

00:08:10 Erin: Yeah. She has about 73 little post-it tags in her book, The Nothing That Never Happened, because she's gonna drop out some questions and it's, you know, that's how we do. But in addition to the books, you also have your YouTube channel, which is Just Corrections with William Young. 

00:08:31 William: Yes ma'am. 

00:08:31 Erin: Where he drops all kinds of wisdom and he's so damn funny, like I don't know, Cinnamon and I like to believe that we're hilarious in the way that we deliver hard shit, but still make it entertaining. But I don't know, you got us beat, man. You say the things.

00:08:48 William: I don't know about that. Well, what good is it to present information if you're not packaging it for your audience, right? And there is really good stuff out there and stuff that our survival hinges on, right, knowing. But if we're talking way up here, and you know, I've seen PhDs and experts come to first responder conferences, corrections, especially, and they're presenting this information, we don't give a shit about it. Like it's not, how does this apply to me in my living room? Can you speak to me in my language? 

00:09:19 William: And so that's what I try to do. I try to be that bridge and say, hey, there's some really good stuff out there, but this is what I'm actually talking about. This is what is actually happening to you. And so that's what I try to do. And honestly, some of this stuff can be kind of dry. And when you're trying to present information that you feel, like you guys, I listened to several episodes of your podcast, the information is honestly life-saving, life-changing information. And if you're putting it out there in a way that nobody wants to consume it, then what's the point? 

00:09:49 Erin: Mm-hmm. Well, yeah. 

00:09:51 Cinnamon: It's kind of like putting vegetables on pizza, right? But you slide them under the cheese to get them to eat their vegetables. Like Erin said, you are our first corrections officer that is focused on wellness. And reading this book, to me, the way you talk about it, it resonated with all of our population because as tricky as the title is, because it took me a minute to figure it out, I was like, aren't we seeing everyone in these communities of first responders living on the edge of the nothing that never happens? Right. And some of it is going to land exactly where it needs to for corrections officers. 

00:10:36 Cinnamon: But there's so much content in there that really can apply to any law enforcement or even other first responders in terms of that hypervigilance and being able to recognize that there is this thing that we're all waiting on that other shoe to drop. And that creates something far beyond what is created when something does actually have it. 

00:11:01 William: Well, thank you. And that was, there's so many things that happen in our life in our job that are considered just part of the job. There are things that we stop recognizing, things that our departments and our agencies don't recognize, things we don't report. It's just, you know, we have a joke that outside it's a misdemeanor, inside it's just Monday. And, you know, those things that we become accustomed to, really over time, kind of erode us emotionally and change who we are. And so those are kind of the things that I like to point out. 

00:11:32 William: It's like, you know, I met a guy in Washington, DC, a correction officer that actually was stabbed in the neck with a pencil, right? That only happens in movies. And I met the guy and I talked to him and we can all agree that, yeah, if you get stabbed in the neck with a pencil, that's a thing that you then deal with. That's a thing that you lose sleep over. The problem is there's a million of those things every day. You know, the nothings, right, are like being stabbed with a pencil. Only we don't recognize injury because we're not told about it. We're told, we're actually taught, trained to suppress our emotions in the name of professionalism. And then we don't even know what's happening to us. So, you know, I appreciate that. 

00:12:13 William: I, you know, and the other thing was, I love, you know, all first responders. And as I meet more people in this industry, you know, the message obviously clearly applies to everybody, but for us, we're like the stepchildren of law enforcement and nobody ever recognizes us. And so it was very important for me to put out information and to put out content that is just geared towards correctional officers, correctional staff members, correctional nurses, because I've been to so many seminars where it's like, police this and firefighters that and dispatchers, you know, and all of those people need the information. And then it's almost like, oh yeah, there's some corrections people here too. 

00:12:59 William: Well, when I say police, I kind of mean you too. I mean, that's, look, we're a cynical bunch. We hate everything and don't trust anybody. And so when you present the information that way and then leave it to a person that's burnt out that doesn't even know the fight that they're in and say, hey, we need you to translate this and then apply it to your own life. They're not gonna do that.

00:13:26 Erin: No, especially if they're like, oh, so I'm an afterthought and yet you want me to take this as seriously as the next guy? Yeah, what a big slap in the face. And the interesting thing is for so long, it's like the dispatchers are the forgotten first responder. We even have an episode called that. That's just not the truth at this point. Yay, thank you for including dispatchers and what about you guys? I mean, and there's so much more. 

00:13:53 Erin: And I wanna share with you, a while back last year, we had the opportunity to do these wellness assessments for a particular department. And so we had the patrol side and then we had the jail side. And what I thought was interesting was when the folks from the jail side would come and sit down with me, they would be like, well, I'm not, patrol, you know? 

00:14:14 William: Right. 

00:14:15 Erin: It was almost like they discounted what they experienced because I know that they experienced crazy ass shit in there, but it was like, but I'm, but I'm not patrol, so, and it's like– 

00:14:26 William: But I'm just, corrections, right? And that's where it comes from, because, so there's two parts to that, and I didn't mean to interrupt you, Erin, but there's two parts to that is, the public doesn't see what we do. There's no sexy TV shows, there's not like, you know, Chicago PD and then Chicago Corrections. And so the public doesn't, we don't get any of that. Because of that long standing culture, we don't even appreciate what we do ourselves. And so, like I said earlier, kind of the throwaway line is, it's just Monday. Like these things that happen to us. 

00:14:58 William: So one of the examples I always use is, if a normal person, I say normal, anyone outside of your listening audience is normal, right? It's your neighbor that you think is weird. But if they were walking down the sidewalk and a park and they see a guy on a park bench masturbating, they would be like, oh my gosh, what is that? Let's call the police. And then the police would deal with it. But for me, I see that daily. I see that as just a guy in room 15. And really essentially what that is, it's a form of sexual assault. And to repeatedly expose somebody to that over and over and over again, so much so to the fact that we don't even acknowledge it as what it is, is what's killing us. 

00:15:40 William: And I'm glad you brought it up because listen, I love love dispatchers. I love all of those people. And I think it's good that we're, you know, getting now a seat at that table, allowing everybody to say, yeah, I know that you guys, that we send you there. You know, I talked to a dispatcher, can you imagine sending somebody to an active shooter or an emergency situation and then you don't hear from them? And you don't know what's going on with that person that you sent there and meanwhile you got sent. I mean, it's terrible. It is absolutely a horrible thing. 

00:16:13 William: But, you know, so the progression is great, bringing them to the table is awesome. And then bringing us as well, there's a unique situation that we have, and I've talked to a couple of police officers about this, who just think it's incredibly crazy, but when we have a traumatic event, a murder, a suicide, or just a death in our facility, in a cell, we have to deal with that, and then we have to go back in and finish our shift. We have to go back and work that housing unit the next day, or work a similar housing unit that's the exact same layout. Whereas a police officer responds to a homicide, they may not ever have to go to that place where they were traumatized again, where they saw that again. 

00:16:55 William: But for us, the sights, the sounds, the smells, there is zero reprieve from that. You know, the battle is, hey guys, you need to acknowledge that these things are happening to you because we don't have the time to heal. There is no, let's pull over, let's duck into a firehouse for a little bit and do some paperwork. There is, you have to type your report with your hands shaking right there where people are yelling, this last one was the inmates chanting, no hope, go get a rope as people are doing CPR. I mean, that's just such a load to process if you're willing to do it and you know you have to do it. But for us, we don't even know we have to do it. So, I mean, that's such an interesting dynamic for us. 

00:17:36 Erin: Yeah. 

00:17:37 Cinnamon: Well, we talk a lot about moving forward the idea that if you're involved in a officer-involved shooting, whether you're getting shot at, whether you take shots, regardless of who gets hit or how they get hit or by who, you need at least 24 hours to get your body to regulate back down, right? 

00:18:00 William: Right. 

00:18:01 Cinnamon: So that may look like we're sending you home immediately. That may look like we don't want you to come back until two days or you've got a day off, whatever that is. But they're looking to, you as you got to finish your shift. And oftentimes you may pull somebody off the streets or patrol maybe a little short and they can handle it, but you've got posts that have to be monitored. So there's almost like a significant lack of flexibility to be able to necessarily sub people out, put them on the bench, have them process and throw somebody else into the game because it has a different construct, there's no one else to pull in so we can send you home and we can't just leave, you know, this unit unsupervised. Do you have to stay in that chair? 

00:19:01 William: Right, there's a couple of things going there. Number one is if any administrators are listening or leadership, I apologize, but it's crap, right? So if I get hurt physically, if I get my jaw broke, I'm going to the hospital, right? And the jail would make do. We would figure it out. We would shut a housing unit down. We would run it in overnight mode or graveyard mode. We would figure it out because that's the essence of jail is it has to keep running. There are things that we have to do and we would figure that out. The same thing happens after you do CPR on somebody for 20 minutes before the “first responders” get there. And you need that break, you need time, you need, in fact, it has to be mandatory, right? It has to be mandatory that this person goes home. 

00:19:51 William: And the reason it has to be mandatory is because of our culture. And I'm sure it's similar in other arenas too, but our culture is I'm not telling anybody that I got to go. I'm not telling anybody that I'm different than anybody. I'm not showing the inmates that I can't go back in there. And sometimes we don't even know that there's anything going on with this, right? We don’t know if we're all jacked up and high-fiving each other and everything. And then we start to come down, and three days later, you're in full breakdown mode, you're crying, you haven't slept, and you can't figure out why. Well, it's because you just watched a dude die, and watching people die is weird. 

00:20:27 William: And so, what I'm fighting for, and what I think should happen is the same thing. Look, you're involved in a critical incident, you're involved in a death or a serious assault, you go home. And we don't want to talk to you. I mean, peer support obviously would follow up and make sure, but we don't wanna see, we'll touch base with you tomorrow and see where you're at. And so that's one of the things that I've been able to do is I kind of, slid, I helped create this position for my department, a wellness and retention coordinator. And one of the things that I'm doing now is, I'm presenting this information, you know, things like sanctuary trauma and other things to say, hey, this officer, regardless of what he or she thinks, needs to go home. 

00:21:13 William: Or, you know, I know that you think taking them out of this unit and putting them in this unit was helping them. But by the way, it's the exact same layout. The inmates that were in there yesterday are now on this one. By the way, that's re-traumatizing your person before they have a chance to catch their breath. So I am working on, and then my argument is, well, if that officer would have got physically hurt, they'd be in the hospital, you wouldn't have them anyways. And so, in our profession, right, in the correctional culture, we never did these things. We never talked about them because, and I feel like maybe sometimes when you have to talk about it, now you have to deal with it, right? 

00:21:50 William: But we have a very, you know, suck it up, get shit done, move on to the next thing attitude, and that contributes to our high rates of heart attack and, you know, suicide, depression, anxiety, divorce, all of those things are off the charts because of this tough guy, tough gal, suck it up mentality is just not working. 

00:22:13 Cinnamon: Yeah. So one of the ways I approach it is in terms of like if it's hard to get an administration to think about what's best for their people, the other spin that I put on it is liability. If you let someone stay that is mentally not in a place where they can perform their job duties, then you're creating a situation that can go really, really badly. And so it may not be something that somebody wants to do, sending home somebody that doesn't look like they have any apparent injuries, but when you frame it in terms of the liability of the institution, but I think that requires somebody saying, hey, I really need to go home, I'm not doing okay, and an institution refusing.

00:23:05 Cinnamon: And that is going to be more difficult to ask for, because not only do you have your coworkers and your supervisors to judge you, but you've got the inmates judging you and eyeballing you to see where is that chink in the armor, where they can get in. And that isn't just about administrative betrayal, potentially, it's about life or death safety with an inmate who could potentially see a weakness to take advantage of. 

00:23:35 William: And that's why you make it mandatory. Because here's the thing, I mean, and I'm sure this is across the board with first responders. How are you doing? I'm fine. I'm good. Let me get back in there. Because that's what we do. That's the type of people that work in corrections and police and fire and dispatch. They want to help people. They're saviors. That's what they're trained to do. That's what their heart tells them to do. They feel called to serve. And so their first reaction when they get hit in the mouth is to keep fighting. And so we need to not only protect the agencies ourselves, but them and say, hey, I know that you wanna keep fighting and that's awesome and incredible. And we'll let everybody know that you're not weak, but you're going home. I mean, that's just our policy. 

00:24:18 William: So what I want to see done and we're working towards it, and my administration is amazing when it comes to this is, you have to go home. That's it. There is no, just like a police shooting or anything else, there's mandatory steps that they take to let their officers do it. And they don't, I'm sure they don't tell the officer, hey, are you good? I know you just shot somebody dead in the car, but are you okay? Oh, you're good, okay, good. Go answer this DV call. I mean, they don't do that, right? But we do. We do. 

00:24:47 William: I took a police officer on a tour. She was our yoga instructor for a while. And I took her on a tour and showed her the facility. And inside the units, you know, we're direct supervision. So we're in there with the inmates and she goes, well, where do you go when you need a break? And I said, we don't get a break. Like, what are you talking about? 

00:25:03 Erin: Yeah. What break? 

00:25:05 William: Right. And so she was, it was for her, like a culture shock because, you know, there is no reprieve for us. There is, jail has to keep going. Right. And there is no, like I said, there is no way to kind of tuck. We can step out for a minute, but we don't even have breaks or lunch breaks in our contracts and stuff. It's go out, eat your food, and you sit in the day room and eat it in front of 60 people who are staring at you, making shitty jokes about eating your food. I mean, those are the little, nothings, right, that I write about that people don't understand and nobody ever talks about. 

00:25:38 Erin: Yeah, and you even touched on that, the little pink hands chapter of your book, which I told Cinnamon was like one of the most like, I mean, there was so much gold in this book, but that particular, maybe it's because I'm a mom, I don't know what it is. But the way that you said, if I was assaulted, would you not have my back? If I had a physical assault, would you not have my back? So where are people when it comes to anything internal that you cannot see? And I would say that based on everything that you just said, like that definitely gets to be something that's enforced. And so by you showing up as this advocate that you do, what kind of responses are you getting when you say that, when you point that out? I'm curious about that. 

00:26:24 William: Some people are receptive and some people tell me to get fucked. I mean, you have to, the environment that we work in is ridiculous. And you have to put on this, which is funny because they tell you to be yourself, but you can't really be yourself. You have to put on this persona and you have to be this, you're the person, you're the tough guy, the tough girl that responds to everything, that's unshakable, nothing bothers. And so when I come in and I say, hey, you guys are all screwed up. And they're like, you know, sitting in the back with their arms crossed. And they're like, no, I'm not, dude, you're a pussy. Maybe correction isn't for you. And I say, well, I've been in it for almost 20 years. So if it's not, then let me know where to go.

00:27:09 William: But it's that. And I'm sure you guys deal with it in your business too, right? When you suggest to somebody that, hey, maybe there's something going on with you. If they're not ready to accept that, if it's new information, they're gonna react in a way to protect themselves, to save face, to do whatever. And so that's why I package the information in the way that I do, right? So when I talk about arguing, or my wife and my son arguing about who's gonna take out the trash, right? And I come in and I separate them like combatants in a day room. I trick these guys, right? Because they're listening, these girls are listening and they're like, oh yeah. I did that last night in my house and then they're like, and then I say, well, that's not good. And they go, oh no, that is me. 

00:27:55 William: And so for me, it's all about planting a seed. It's all about, so when I go and speak, I had to get over it really quickly because people don't react. Some people laugh, like nervously, but for the most of the time they're dead quiet. And I was like, do I suck? Like, what's the problem? But what it is, is cause I'm giving them, they're not ready for what I'm giving them. And then on top of that, they're not going to respond because the person they're standing shoulder to shoulder with, they're like, well, my safety, and it depends on their safety, and their safety depends on my safety, and I can't show them that I'm having any kind of an issue, so I need to be strong. Well, I mean, that's good until it doesn't work anymore, right? 

00:28:37 Erin: Right. 

00:28:37 William: And so I have a lot of negative feedback that I get all from correctional staff. They hate my beard. They hate the fact that I wear a hat. They hate the energy. They message me, incredibly crazy things, but I don't care. I do care, it hurts my feelings a little bit, but I know that it's because they're in a bad spot and that they're angry with the fact that their life is out of control. The fact that I hit a nerve somewhere. And if I have to be that punching bag and if I have to be the person that says, yeah, dude, you can be mad at my beard all day long. 

00:29:13 William: That doesn't, you're not really mad about that. You're mad that you work for a facility that makes you work four, five, 16 hour shifts in a day and you haven't slept and seen your kids for months. That's what you're mad about. You're not mad about me. So let me try to help you sort through it. So some of them get it and it's great and we move on and some of them don't, but the message is too important. So I lick my wounds for a little bit and then I get back in it, you know? 

00:29:38 Erin: Good for you. Yeah, my husband always says, you know you're doing something right and hitting a chord when you start getting trolls. That means enough people are in front of you, you know, that you're actually getting that side of the feedback. And you're right, people are, it's scary. It's a scary, eye-opening thing. 

00:29:54 Cinnamon: You know, I made a note on page 69, and I was able to actually read my own handwriting, and it said, the perfect summary, and I put a star by it, and it says, it's damaging to both our mental and physical health. The correctional environment is harsh and loud and unforgiving and full of negative influences. The things that we see and say and have to do stick to us. They darken our worldview and sabotage us spiritually. Like, my God, I don't know if I've seen anything summarize this work in such a beautiful artistic way. And as you are talking, even just the idea of like, okay, so far we've had a negotiator, I've read in here, the social worker, and you have more of a comparison with the dispatchers than you do like maybe outside the wall law enforcement, because there is no break, right? 

00:31:03 William: Right.

00:31:03 Cinnamon: Like we know that dispatchers may be dispatching calls for four different cities or townships, which means maybe eight. And so they're never stopping. And same with you guys, that you have all of these roles that are so important, not only to the operation, but then you even get into how this is part of your contribution to society, because how you treat these guys and the effort that you put into their rehabilitation, when I think across the country, we've lost a lot of hope in the idea of the rehabilitation part of corrections. 

00:31:43 William: Right. 

00:31:44 Cinnamon: That you have a direct hand in who we are getting back out on the streets. And you may not only be one of the forgotten first responders, but I'm going to say the most underestimated because you do like 15 jobs all rolled in one. 

00:32:02 William: Well, I appreciate you saying that. I, it's so weird to have somebody read back what you wrote and you're like, God, did I really write that? That's crazy. 

00:32:10 Cinnamon: You're like, damn, that's some good shit. 

00:32:11 William: Yeah, that is good. Can you send that to me? Now put that on a t-shirt and wear it around. You know, this is what I tell correctional staff because we do view ourselves as less than our counterparts on the street and we do view ourselves as just corrections. But the reality is when a police officer arrest somebody, deals with them, whatever brings them in, and for 45 minutes, an hour, whatever it is, could be two hours. But I deal with those people for months and years. And we have to live with them and work with them. And so we get to know them. And I think a lot of correctional officers miss out on this connection piece because we're taught it's us versus them. That's not really true. It's kind of us versus ourselves.

00:32:59 William: And so we build these relationships with these guys. And I tell people, I say, we're the only example in their life of a person who actually has their shit together, which is scary because I don't have my shit together. But the way we talk to people, the way we interact with people, even when we use force, the way that we apply that force really makes a difference. So when the whole country was up in arms, you know, with all the civil unrest following the murder of George Floyd, we had a little bit of some situations inside, but not as much as a lot of facilities, I think, because of the way that we treat our population collectively, right, overall, and kind of the reputation that our facility has. 

00:33:47 William: And I think correctional officers, one of the reasons they aren't proud of what they do, or they don't see their job as fulfilling as somebody who would be out on the street, is because they miss that. They misunderstand the importance of what a daily interaction can do for a person. And honestly, let's talk about just people out on the street, just me and you, and we bump into people, we say hi, we smile, we treat people with respect. That could save a person's life because you don't know what's going on with them. And so, yes, your good luck or have a good day or you taking five minutes to figure out what's going on in their head. Not only from a safety perspective, can that keep you from being the last one killed if something happens, but it can also plant a seed that changes their outlook in life later. 

00:34:35 William: I mean, I've had inmates that have come back and say, hey man, you know, after years, I say, I ask them how they're doing. Well, I'm in jail. Well, I understand that, but I haven't seen you in years. You actually kind of look pretty good. How are you? Well, I'm 10 days sober. I'm two years sober, whatever it is. And to me, that's like, that's terrific. Yes, and that is when you say it like that, it is weird. I do love people. The problem is my tolerance for people that I don't feel like have a reason to bitch or complain about things. Some people call them first world problems. Some people call them white people problems.

00:35:15 William: When you deal with a population of people that have dealt with some serious trauma that, honestly, hey, my mom taught me to smoke meth when I was 10 years old. And you watch them struggle for a decade to keep themselves out of jail. Those are my people. Those are the people that I feel like deserve the most out of me. And so when I see a lady in line complaining because her coupon is not working or I don't even know if people use coupons anymore, but whatever, or a PTA meeting where people are complaining, I'm just not very good at that. And then with my people, this is what I want people to understand. And this is why it's so important. 

00:35:58 William: I can relate to Correctional Staff because I am Correctional Staff. I'm not pulling stories out of the atmosphere from things I've heard and people that I've talked to. These are things that I've lived. And this is what my daily life looks like. And I know what the job can do to you because it's done it to me, right? And so although I've had people, you know, well, you know, being a snowplow driver is dangerous and being a truck driver is important. I understand that. And I hope that out there somewhere as a truck driver with a YouTube channel saying, I love you guys and I appreciate you guys, but I'm not a truck driver, so I don't care. 

00:36:37 William: What I care about is a group of people that are fighting every single day for their sanity, to keep their marriage, to keep the relationships with their kids. And they need some help and they're not getting it. For me, you know, the movie Forrest Gump where Gump keeps running back and pulling people out of the jungle, right? I'm saving this person. I'm saving this person. That's me. That's what I want to do because, and I'm not saying I'm a savior or whatever But I'm, what I'm saying is that I don't talk about tactical handcuffing because I don't give a shit about it. I don't teach things or speak about things that I'm not passionate about because there are other people out there doing that, and that's awesome for them. 

00:37:16 William: I do this because I honestly want to see everybody not become me. I don't want people to get divorced. I don't want people to have... You know how much shit I broke and yelled and screamed at my kids when they were younger? Let's avoid that. And I've been able to repair that. And I've done all the soul searching and the converse. I've done a lot of research to make my situation better. So I'm going to be okay. I'm already in the lifeboat, right? But a couple of things is, I want you to understand that your life doesn't have to be like the way it is. You don't have to fight every single time somebody asks you to do something. Because I want you to know where that anger comes from. I want you to know where that stress and those emotions are coming from. And then, so we can maybe try to avoid being me, is what I'm trying to do. 

00:38:10 Cinnamon: So when you are talking about that, you have these two, what could be seen as opposing perspectives in the book as you're talking about, like that level of awareness of what's happening to you. And I love how you say, you know, listen, you may not see the changes in yourself. You may not feel like anything is wrong, but I think that's crap. 

00:38:35 William: Right. 

00:38:35 Cinnamon: Because you know something's different with you. So there's the long, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine. And then all of a sudden you recognize that you're not fine, but you don't know exactly what to do and it sneaks up on you. And so I wanna hear more about your perspective of when I'm actually probably able to see that difference, but I'm either what you said, too hard-headed, too stubborn, that if you're not crying in a dark room or you're not abusing prescription pills, you think you're fine. Drinking every night, totally normal. If you're not beating on your wife, normal. The measuring sticks that people use, that are so misguiding, but what was it like for you to be fine, but damn well know that something was different than it was? And how did you find your voice to be able to say that?

00:39:36 William: Well, my wife found my voice for me. There's a chapter in the book called I'm Not Good With People Anymore and it was essentially me acting like me and overreacting to a situation that I shouldn't have overreacted to, and her saying you're not good with people anymore, and you have to figure it out or I'm going to leave. And I was like, well, I really like being married to you and so maybe I should look at it. But I knew, see, the thing is, we're really good at what we do. I was a really good correctional officer. And so I don't see that at work. And so I go home and I say, well, I'm tired. So these feelings that I have, even knowing the difference between being physically tired and emotionally tired, we didn't know that, right? 

00:40:22 William: I'm laying on the couch every weekend watching Netflix, not because I'm physically tired, but because I'm depressed. But I don't know that and I don't see that because I think two things. I'm fine, right? And everything is good, or I'm not thinking about putting a gun in my mouth. And so that's the thing, right? Because if you're having a problem, then that's the marker. And that's kind of what it was for me. I started looking at stuff and I'm like, okay, well, I'm angry all the time. I withdraw. I avoid going, my neighbors would come over and talk, and I would just sit there. I'd go to things, but I'd just sit there. And I wouldn't wanna talk to anybody because they don't understand what I'm going through or their problems didn't bother me. 

00:41:07 William: And so there were little, looking back now, there were little signs like that to where, yeah, if I would have caught this a lot earlier, then maybe I would have saved myself a little bit of heartache. But you aren't trained to look at the job as a source of your stress. Because I've never been stabbed in the neck with a pencil. In 20 years, I've had two inmates that have gone after me. I've broken up a lot of fights. I've done a lot of things, responded to a lot of medical emergencies, but only two that said, I'm coming after you. And one of them was crazy. So I don't really count that. And the other one, you know, was mad at another officer anyways, but… 

00:41:44 William: So what, looking back, I was like, I don't know what's happening to me. My marriage is cool. My kids are happy and they're not hooligans. Like, and I do a really good job at work. So what is this thing? And so I had two people, my wife being one of them, and then I had actually an inmate that asked me when I was going through and doing my rounds, and I would usually talk to people, and I said something to the effect of, you know, who cares, we all die anyways, or something stupid like that. And he come up to me later and he said, are you okay? And I'm like, yeah, of course I'm okay, dude, like whatever. And then I really started thinking about it. I'm like, I'm not, but I don't know where to look. 

00:42:26 William: And so I started researching burnout, you know, correctional officer burnout, correction officer fatigue, like, you know, suicidal ideation, depression, anxiety, how do these things kind of manifest in your life? And the first thing that I realized is there isn't shit out there for us. And the second thing I realized is like, holy crap, that's, that kind of fits me. You know, yeah, I'm not contemplating ending my life, but I'm also not living life either. Like I'm hiding. And I'm spending my entire day arguing, you're treating my kids like inmates, treating my wife, you know, not the way she deserves to be treated. I don't have any friends anymore. Like I've self isolated because I'm afraid that everybody's gonna try to come, kill me. And that was really bringing me down. 

00:43:15 William: And when you only live for your work, when your whole identity is wrapped up in your work or the only time you feel like yourself is when you're in uniform, I mean, that's, that should be a sign that something's wrong.

00:43:34 Erin: Yeah, you just touched on something that made me think about children in general. Because I think about talking to my daughter or my son when they have these emotional feelings, these big feelings, but they can't put words to it because it's new to them. They're like, I don't know, I just feel sad, but that's as deep as it can go because it's like, this is so foreign. Yes, I'm crying. Yes, I'm slamming doors. Yes, I'm overreacting. And I don't know why. I just know that it's this way. And so when you said that it's like, almost like reverting back to childhood and all these brand new foreign things that you can't put pictures or words to because you haven't experienced it and it's just brand new. 

00:44:18 Erin: And that's a challenging place to be. Like, I know this shit isn't working. I know I'm feeling different, but what the hell is it? Well, it's a ton of things. First, it's so much stuff piled in there, but what a challenging place to be. And then on top of that, it's like, well, then who do I go to? And you just said, like, first I learned that there's nothing out there for corrections officers. There's nothing. So then I, what I took from that is you're like, so I guess I'm the one. I'm the one to go out there and make sure there's something out there because somebody has to be the one that kind of leads the march. And maybe, I mean, I know that there's other people doing stuff, like, tear talk, right? Is that, that's one of them? 

00:45:01 William: Mm-hmm. There are other people have done the research studies that have, from outside of our profession, you know, kind of talked to a few of us and said, oh yeah, you guys are screwed up. And this is called post-traumatic stress or this is complex post-traumatic stress and 50 some percent of you have it. And it's actually low, it's like 35%, but 35% of you have it and here's what you do. Okay, well, here's what I heard. You never did my job, I don't give a shit. I have to go to work tonight? Well, whatever. And so, yeah, so there are people that are out doing it, but they're speaking a different language, right? 

00:45:46 William: And so, and there's a beautiful quote that I heard that says, you know, it talks about, and I saw on your page too, there was something about being the voice in the movement. What I'm trying to do is be one of the voices of the movement because it's going to take every, there's people that don't like me. There's people that don't like my presentation. There's people that want that. I say write my book. I'm not a clinician, man. I'm a jailer. Like I'm going to tell you and you know, so I'm and I'm writing a new book now and I'm, what I'm trying to do is start to call things like they are. But I don't want to write a chapter on emotional suppression because nobody cares about that. 

00:46:25 William: What I want to write a chapter on is, hey, by the way. They teach us to be tough. They teach us to suck it up. And what they're actually teaching us to do is to suppress our emotions, which is a great short-term coping skill, but in the long run, it kills us. And so, and I know that it kills us because I was right there with you when we did CPR on that dude. And so that's what I'm trying to do. And there are there, there, I'm good friends with Anthony, and they're out there and people are trying to say, Hey, look at us and look at what we're doing. And, but my niche, right, is, and I do sometimes I touch on it, like, you know, I talk about the tactical handcuffing and there's people that are like, hey, can you do a video on, you know, how to tie my boots or whatever? And I'm like, yeah, sure. 

00:47:10 William: So here's a good example. They wanted to talk about keys and key control, cause that's, you know, whatever. Where do you put your keys on your belt? And so what I said is, I said this, I said, isn't that interesting thought, like, where do you put your keys on your belt? They're like, well, I put them on my right side. Well, why? Well, I put them on my right side because I'm left-handed and that's my strong hand. And if I need to go to my weak hand and I put, so there's all kinds of things and all these scenarios that we played through in our mind that go into the, where we put our keys on our belt.

00:47:42 William:  And so if you talk to a normal person, and this all kind of spurred from a, I was at church one night and this guy lost his keys and he didn't even care. He's like, oh, I gotta sort of kind of look for him. And I'm like, dude, I'm freaking out because I'm like losing keys to me inside his death. And then not only that is if I lost my keys, I think that I wouldn't think that I just misplaced them. I would think that somebody stole them and is in my house waiting to kill me and my family when we go to sleep. And why do I think that? Because I work with people that wait in houses and kill people when they go to sleep. And so the thought process that goes, so it's all mental health related. It's all, and just imagine that, okay? 

00:48:25 William: When you're looking at your duty belt, you're grabbing your accessories and you're talking about stress, or this job doesn't bother me, or I'm totally okay, like Bill, what are you talking about? You spent 45 minutes arranging your duty belt. Why did you do it like that? Was it just for looks? Well, no, of course it wasn't, it's all purposeful. Okay, so why? Your mind is operating in that, that everything's gonna happen, everybody's a threat, everything's a weapon all of the time. That's why we do the things that we do. And all of that makes your… your brain is reacting, your body's reacting, whether you want it to or not, your body's doing things that you have zero control over. 

00:49:06 William: And so in a 20 year, 25, 30 year career, whatever, your body is redlining all the time, regardless on how you feel it is, you're slowly killing yourself. Because you're not recognizing the things that you're doing and then being intentional about walking that back and addressing those things that you need to address. And that's my passion, that's what I try to do and that's what I try to talk about. 

00:49:32 Cinnamon: So as a– 

00:49:35 William:  Why are you laughing at me? 

00:49:37 Cinnamon: No, I’m not laughing at you. I'm laughing at Erin because we're both like waiting to see if the other one. I have, you know, I owe that.

00:49:43 William:: I talk too much and I apologize. 

00:49:45 Cinnamon: Who has the question? 

00:49:45 Erin: No, you don't. 

00:49:45 Cinnamon: Who wants the…

00:49:46 Erin: You are the guest. 

00:49:47 Cinnamon: To go first?

00:49:47 Erin: People don't want to hear us talk shit. Yeah.

00:49:50 Cinnamon: Yeah. 

00:49:51 Erin: You're here for a reason. 

00:49:51 Cinnamon: All we do is we're like, can you say a little bit more about this? Cause I think our people want to hear it. Well, what, you know, what you're, you've talked about specifically, about, like withdrawing. You've talked about the isolation. And a lot of times people don't see that if they're outside your house, right? They don't know whether or not you stop going to your seven-year-old soccer games. They don't know if every Easter you sit out of your wife's family's big dinner, right? Like we don't know necessarily what isolation and withdrawal is looking like day to day for a lot of people. 

00:50:29 Cinnamon: But if we go one up and we look at what's oftentimes causing that withdrawal, the symptom that I think gets most people's attention, and then they are easy to defend because of the environment, is what we call the negative worldview, right? Like everybody is an asshole. People are idiots, right? Like when you do that across the board, but when you try to explain to somebody in your position what that is symptomatically, they're like, that's not symptomatic. That's– 

00:51:04 William: That's safety.

00:51:04 Cinnamon: Reality.

00:51:05 William: That’s safety. 

00:51:06 Cinnamon: Right? Like, I have to think everybody is the bad guy, otherwise one might slip through. So how would that have been effectively communicated to you? Or how would you communicate that to another peer about what we call the negative worldview? And you talk about it in terms of a necessity due to safety. 

00:51:25 William: Well, so I think we cloak everything. I think we cloak that negative worldview, we cloak cynicism, we cloak all that stuff, and we call it officer safety, right? And so we tell officers that everybody's gonna try to kill them, don't trust anybody ever, not inmates and not staff. And so we prepare them for the world inside. And all of that is very necessary information to survive the job. What we need to do is add a mental health or wellness piece or a, as somebody described it, the side effects listed on these black label, black box medications that say, if you take this, you will have XYZ. So yes, inside inmates will lie to you. They will try to manipulate you. 

00:52:10 William: Every conversation that you have is an opportunity for them to mine information to then use against you later. So be careful. Inmates do find out where you live and have gone to officers' houses and tried to kill them before. Okay, that's great. Now you understand the importance of keeping yourself safe. But I wanna remind you that your neighbor's not an inmate. I also wanna remind you that your son is not an inmate. And I wanna let you know that when you do this and you look at the world the way we're training you to look at the world for 40, 50, 60, 70 hours a week for the next 10 years, for the next five years, whatever it is for you, you may start to look at the world differently. You may start to feel yourself becoming more cynical, less trusting of people. 

00:52:57 William: And if that's the case, this is what you can do. And adding that piece to every piece of curriculum that we give staff. All right, okay, here, we're gonna show you how to hold your hands up when you talk to an inmate, right? When I talk to somebody, I don't have my hands in my pocket, so they're up here, I'm talking so I can defend myself if I need to. Okay, that's great, and that will protect you, and that will stop you from getting punched in the face. We're also looking all around. Like, have you ever talked to a correctional officer, you swear they're blind because they're always, like looking around? It's because we've been trained to watch everything all the time. 

00:53:35 William: To say that, to give them that piece, hey, we're going to show you and teach you that everybody that you encounter throughout your shift is a threat has the potential to make sure that you don't go home every night. So if I tell you, hey, I'm going to lock you in a room with 60 people and all of them may kill you or rape you, then how do you look at those people? And what does your body do when you're doing it? And then I just leave you alone. And then you start to, now when you go to Walmart on a Saturday, which is the worst place on the planet, you go there, and now you've got 500 people around you. And does that one look like an inmate? Oh, no, guess what? This inmate just did approach you and say, hey, CEO, I'm out, by the way. 

00:54:17 William: And so you start to look for the threat everywhere. And so we can tell them, hey, look, guys, gals, this is what your training will do to you. And not saying it's going to, some of you may be great, some of you may have no side effects, right? The little disclaimers at the bottom of the commercials. But some of you may have some very serious side effects to this training that we're giving you. And we want you to know that even though you're going to say there's too many people in this world, or you're going to say that all people are idiots. I mean, I probably hear that 10 times a day. And I feel that honestly, like all the time. People are idiots, but it's really the people that I deal with are idiots. 

00:55:01 William: And they're not even really idiots. It's that thing that Erin talked about with the kids. I don't know, to say somebody's an idiot, it, kind of, you know, you're not even thinking about all the things that are playing into the way they're behaving right now, right? And that's, I'm not asking correctional staff to do that because that takes effort and you wanna have to be able to understand people. So I'm not suggesting that. But I'm saying that if, and I always tell staff, I say, if you’re an asshole now, then that's your baseline. If you don't trust anybody now, because that's what I get. Well, I didn't trust anybody before I started this job. Bullshit. 

00:55:37 William: Okay. Yeah. Nobody trusts anybody. I get it. But if that ever feels like it's creeping up a little bit, then that's when you kind of need to pay attention. I use it like this. I say Michael Jackson was always weird, right? But when Michael Jackson got a lot of money and a lot of fame, he got really freaking weird, right? So that's what it is with correctional staff. If you're, if you have an insecurity, if you have any kind of anxiety, corrections will expose that, it'll amplify that. It doesn't make it better. It's not like I was…

00:56:08 William: I suffered from depression before I started corrections and I got into this environment that's loud, it smells like piss and all the walls are gray and I'm like, whoa, this is really great for my depression. This is awesome. That's not the case, it makes it worse. And so having a disclaimer, and that's one of the things that I'm working towards is, and I'm not saying anything bad, we have a job that we have to do. We have shit that has to get done. Right? And I heard, I went to Colorado one time and I heard a psychiatrist, she was up there, psychologist, whatever she was, an expert, right, as me. And she told a room full of correctional officers that there are times that we just got to suck it up. 

00:56:42 William: And I said, not in my head, right? That's bullshit. Because what if that person goes home and kills themselves because they couldn't express what was going on? What if we told them that, look, here's the deal, you're gonna witness some super traumatic things, and you're gonna run into things that you had no idea that you were ever gonna see. And some of those things are hard to digest, and you may have hesitation, you may not know how to react or how to handle those things, and that's okay. You're a person and that's what people do. Let us give you the tools, then to now navigate that. 

00:57:17 William: See, we train people to answer the call, to respond to them, but we don't train people to live their life after the call. And it's not because we, I want to, and maybe this is my utopian brain. I don't want to say it's because we don't care, but it's like when you pass somebody in the hall and you say, hey, how you’re doing? And they're like, oh, I'm not really doing good. And then you say, ah, shit, I was hoping they were just gonna say I'm fine and walk away. 

00:57:42 Erin: Okay. 

00:57:43 William: Right, now you're invested in what's going on. And I think that because corrections as a culture, as a collective doesn't know how to deal with these things. Like when I go speak, half the agencies, more than half the agencies don't even have peer support teams. Like that's how far behind we are. So when I suggest, hey, you need to have somebody trained to respond to correctional officers that are having a bad day, it's like I'm speaking a different language. 

00:58:11 Erin: That's a thing. 

00:58:13 William: Right, and they're like, well, what? Well, but then we're gonna need to, I don't care. Do you want this person to, like, die? So I spoke to our county board not too long ago and I said, wellness for me is not about filling a post. It's not about making sure employees are happy and healthy at work. It's about making sure that they can live a happy and healthy life outside of work, right? It's about helping people that are willing to die for your mission statement and giving them the tools that they need to be okay when they go home. That's what wellness needs to be. 

00:58:44 William: And I've had people that say, oh, you're intense or when you're going to lighten up or like, and I'm like, well, how about when people quit killing themselves? How about when we could get divorced? How about when we don't overreact or underreact? And these things, it becomes part of our normal day to day. Maybe then I'll relax a little bit. So I've been talking about this since probably 2017, 2018 is kind of when I started this journey. And we're still at a point where the majority of agencies don't have peer support. So we're doing a lot of talking. A friend of mine said a lot of process, not a lot of progress. We're doing a lot of talking about it, but we're still not doing anything about it and that pisses me off. 

00:59:27 Erin: Yeah. Rightfully so. And that's exactly why our podcast is called After The Tones Drop. 

00:59:35 William: Right. 

00:59:36 Erin: It's like, great. We know this shit happens. What about after that? 

00:59:40 William: I listen to, I listen to, when you guys reach out to me, I listen to several of your episodes and I think I emailed you. And this is what people don't understand is hearing somebody else talk about it and knowing that you guys, that you get it, right? And this is, obviously some people are like, well, they're not corrections, so they, but here's the thing, there was an episode that talked about the, I think it was I'm Fine or something, it talked about the two different people that you're talking about when you say I'm fine. And I'm literally bawling on my way to work because I'm like, holy shit, this is fucking us. And that's why I think a lot of us don't do that. 

01:00:18 William: Once you start to, once you break the seal, right? You just start pissing. So once you start looking into what's going on and you start exposing some of the stuff, sometimes it's hard to let it stop. And, but that's okay, right? I mean, the information is not put out there to say, you know, we want you to feel bad about yourself or maybe you should go do something else. The information is put out there to say, look, you are worth this. You deserve to be happy for all the things that you do for society, for all the things that you do for people, for all the things that you put up with for your family. You deserve this information. You deserve to be helped. 

01:00:59 William: And so when I hear that, I get really emotional because I watch people struggle and try to flounder and fight through this and we're not doing a very good job. And I know what it feels like now sitting here versus what it felt like when I was just figuring this stuff out. And it's night and day difference. I know... I'm at a point now in my relationship where my wife can be like, you need to go for a walk. Or I can tell her, I can't go to your sister's tonight. And there's no questions asked. Simple conversations, a little bit of information can really change your life. 

01:01:46 William: Just like working out at the gym every day. Why stop and I do a bunch of, and that's great. What are you doing for your mind? What are you doing for your heart? What are you doing for your household? Can you go home and can you tell your spouse? One of the things my wife used to do and my wife is an incredible person. She would call and I'd get off at three o'clock, she'd call me at 3:05. And she would start right away, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, start going, telling me everything about her day. And I didn't give a fuck. Like I had just got, that's what my day is all day, right? 

01:02:17 William: Inmates telling me their problems and fighting and I'm literally putting out fires and doing CPR and doing all these things. I don't care what's for dinner. Like I literally, I know a lot of couples fight about like, hey, what do you want for dinner? I don't care. Like I really, I don't care if I eat. I don't care if I don't, like I don't give a fuck. And so I, instead of being short, right? Like I did for years, you know, uh-huh, yeah, okay. Well, I don't care. I said, babe, let me call you when I'm ready to talk. Let me just give, cause I don't know what my day is gonna look like. And so sometimes I call her at 305. And I go. And some days, I don't. Some days I call her at 3:15. Sometimes I text her and say, hey, I'm on my way home. 

01:03:02 William: And having that conversation and knowing what you need, looking at what you need, instead of just sucking it up, right? Because we're told, leave work at work and home at home. And there was a… the thing that you guys shared on your Facebook that is a common theme that we do, and it was that, dispatcher guy and he's like, just shut the door behind it and whatever. And that's total bullshit. Because we do that and then we come home and we haven't processed it. We haven't worked through it. And now my wife's like, hey, discipline your son because he didn't do his homework. And I lose my mind on my kids. Sorry, I'm cussing a little bit, but I lose my mind on my kid and I treat them. I treat them and people always say this, don't talk to me like an inmate. The secret is we talk to people worse than inmates when we're at home because there's no, what's he gonna do to me, write a grievance? Right? Like it’s my kids.

01:03:51 Erin: There's no consequence. 

01:03:52 Cinnamon: No accountability. 

01:03:53 William: They [do have] consequences. 

01:03:54 Erin: Yeah. 

01:03:54 William: So I do that and I destroy him because I'm having the problem, because I haven't identified what's wrong and I haven't acknowledged, I haven't said, hey, babe, when I get home is not the time to have this conversation. Can we do this later? Can we do this another time? Can I sort through the shit? And again, some days nothing happened. Some days I just need time because I was still waiting for something to happen. And so those conversations are very helpful, very beneficial, and just something simple that you could be like, I need that separation. I need that transition from my professional life to my personal life so I can be the best father that I can be, so I can be the best mother that I can be, so I can be the best cornhole bag throwing partner I can be or whatever it is. 

01:04:42 William: And we miss out on that because of this unrealistic expectation that we put on ourselves that we're somehow different than every other human being on the planet, right? Okay, so I could take off my uniform, I can put up my locker and I'm totally okay. Like I don't have to, the guy that died on my watch or the inmates that almost fought at my watch or the fact that I was threatened to be killed again today. No, none of that, but I won't ever think about that again. That is total crap. And so then what happens is we go home and we think about it, right? But we don't talk about it, but we're thinking about it. 

01:05:19 William: And then we're like, shit, what's wrong with me? They told me not to think about this. And I know nobody else is thinking about it because nobody else talks about it at work. And I can't talk about it at work because if they know that I'm thinking about when I get home, they're gonna think that I'm weird or that I'm weak. And so then that, then you withdraw. And that's when you say, what's going on? Nothing, I'm fine. And if you have close friends, you have partners, you have spouses, they know. And what hurts a relationship more than shitty communication, right? 

01:05:47 William: And so you have to be able to express that and you have to be okay with it because there are people out there that want to help you through the things that you're working through. You just got to let them know you need the help. And we're too stubborn to do that. 

01:05:59 Cinnamon:I love the question that you ask at the end of the book in chapter 19, your eulogy, because it kind of just wraps it all up in a perfect little package and it says, has it, meaning the job, has it hardened your view of humanity? And whether that's the idiocracy that we observe, that causes our road rage, or if it's disciplining our kid at a 10 out of 10 instead of out of a three out of 10, if it's believing that we aren't bringing work home simply because we're not telling anybody about those problems or if it's, you know, well, if you had my job, you would do those things too, as it translates to, I'm not symptomatic, I'm just law enforcement.

01:06:59 William: Right.

01:06:59 Cinnamon: Right? Like no one ever wants to see that the fact are unwilling to sit with their back to the door. Like that's such a basic, everybody across the board has it, but I'm like, you're not at work. And it's like, so? Like not even recognizing that that is part of or the beginning of, potential problem. And so being able to just say, has this work hardened your view of humanity? 

01:07:27 William: Yeah, I mean, and that's our fault. We don't, and that goes back to the training and to the culture… is we tell everybody that if you don't behave this way, you're gonna die or your family's gonna be killed. And so what bigger stakes do you know than that? If I told you, hey, if you, Erin and Cinnamon, if you do X, Y, Z, you can protect your family. Well, you're gonna do X, Y, Z. It doesn't matter, right? But that's, you need to do X, Y, Z when you're inside. And then also realize that the world is not full of ex inmates turn assassins who are trying to hunt you down and kill you. That's not reality. 

01:08:14 William: And that's why I tell people, the world is not a dark and scary place. Our world is a dark and scary place. And that's where you need to separate those two things. And it's obvious, this is not correction specific, right? If you had the last five relationships that you were in were shitty and abusive and the person cheated on you. That's how you form your view of people, right? That's how you carry that baggage with you to your next relationship. So this is not like a correction specific concept. This is like your experiences view the way that you view the world. They shape your outlook, but for some reason, we think that, oh, okay, well, yeah, so a breakup can make me do that, but watching a guy hanging in a cell won't make me do that.

01:09:06 William: Well, that's stupid. That's, like, totally ridiculous. You know, so these concepts are not, they're not foreign, they're just foreign to us. And I think that's why I think that we need to present this in a way that says, hey, the reason that I tell you to, that you can't leave work at work is because nobody can. Because literally adults, most of us are just super boring and all we talk about is our job. Like that's it, our job. And what are you watching on Netflix? Like who cares? So why can't I? Why don't I do it? Well, because they don't understand or I'm trying to protect…  

01:09:42 William: That's stupid. Quit being an idiot. Talk about what's going on, you know, because people want to know. And you deserve to be happy. So, you know, we do superhero things, superhuman things, but we're not superhuman. And that's what people need to understand. Like, there's all kinds of things like, beyond the badge and beyond the blue and all these things. But do we really understand what that means? That yeah, we do put on a cape and a mask and a utility belt. We do go handle our business. But we're still... 

01:10:21 William: I'm reading this super cool book, a psychologist wrote about Batman and diagnosing his mental health disorder. Batman is the perfect example of corrections of law enforcement. He is all about work. He's driven through past trauma. He goes out and he fights crime. And it's his whole identity, so much so that he can't have a healthy relationship outside of it. He self-isolates. He does the bare minimum of what he has to do to show face, but he doesn't trust anybody. And he doesn't feel like his mission will ever be fulfilled because crime is never ending. And... 

01:10:54 Erin: Damn. Yes. 

01:10:55 William: Yeah, and Batman's fucked up. And so... 

01:10:58 Cinnamon: Shit, yeah. 

01:11:00 William: And so are we. And that is, those are kind of the nuggets, right, that are floating around out there that if you're like, really look at how you live your life. Quick story, my sergeant that I was working with told me that his neighbor came over to tell them about a sex offender that lives in the neighborhood. And she was beside herself and she's freaking out and my kid's not gonna be able to go to the park and he can't do this and this. And my supervisor was just, he's like, okay. 

01:11:29 William: And then he was telling me, he said, you know, all those things that she told me. I'm not gonna have to change a thing. Cause I already assumed that everybody out there was a sex offender. I already lived my life in a way that my kid would be protected from being abducted and trafficked. And so I'm good. Like I don't have to change a thing. And I said, is that really good? Your kid can't go play at a park, bro. Like that's not normal. Like I looked it up like 96% of kids that are kidnapped are kidnapped by their own family. Your kids had a greater risk at a family reunion than in a park down the street. 

01:12:02 William: So those, kind of, things that we do that we lie to ourselves and say we're doing this to protect ourselves, protect our family safety. Yeah, those things are true, but the way that we're doing it is not always the healthiest way. It's just unique. It's just weird. We're weird. 

01:12:20 Erin: Well, we're weird too. We like the weirdos. My husband was like, yesterday I was like, you cannot plug that power strip into that power strip and it not be a hazard. He's like, oh, I didn't know you were an electrician. I'm like, no, I just work with firefighters every fucking day. And so now everything is, even me, right? Every little thing, maybe not to the degree that you guys have, but it's like, I see the hazard, the potential risk, the potential danger in it. 

01:12:50 Erin: You know, like my children know how to unlock windows in this house. They know certain things and I react in certain ways that I don't think most, a lot of parents that don't work in this world would ever do. And this is just the fricking aftermath. Like I'm just getting it secondhand. I'm not experiencing it, but it's because it's so repetitive. The stories I hear, we hear, it's so repetitive. And I'm like, yeah, this shit happens. This isn't just made for TV. But yeah, so we're all, you know, we're all fucked up. 

01:13:19 William: That's a great example. And you know, the thing is, and so people will listen and they're go, well, yeah, so see, Erin said it. And so it's a normal thing for me to do this, but here's the difference. The difference is firefighters know what somebody smells like when they don't get out of that fire that was set by those strips. And that's something you can never get out of your head. Correctional office. So when I hear about, or I can tell you a story about an inmate that we found dead in the cell and that I had to do CPR on, you can imagine that. But if you've never been down in it and you're kneeling in a flooded cell and you're doing these... 

01:13:57 William: So we have real world examples. Like I said, the things we see, say, hear and have to do that I draw a line. So when I, like with the park thing, the reason that we behave that way is because I actually know a guy, his face, what he smells like, what his voice sounds like, who trafficked kids that he abducted at a park. This is not, like some weird, oh yeah, I can imagine how horrible that would be. I had to listen to that guy talk about how he found those kids, groomed them, and then took them. Like I have a real world example of why I behave. 

01:14:37 William: And so that's why it's easy for me to justify my behavior, right? My freak outs because I, because you guys don't know what I've seen. You don't know what people are capable of. And so you have to listen to me. We have to do these certain things. Otherwise we're all going to die. And that is a side effect of working in this job. And that's what people don't understand. 

01:15:00 William: And yes, okay, great, you're keeping your family safe. But why, but what I wanna do is I wanna explore, I wanna talk about why did you let your kid go to the park in the first place? Well, because I didn't want him to get abducted. Well, why? Well, because I knew a guy 15 years ago that did that. Well, why did that guy in particular out of the thousands of inmates you deal with, why this one? Why did this one stick with you? 

01:15:25 William: And then you could start to look, peel away those onion layers, right? And start to look at, huh, maybe that is why I'm doing the things that I'm doing. And then if you know that, then you can talk yourself back from that and you can put things in place to where your kid says, hey dad, can I go to the park? You're not like, no, no, you're gonna die. You're like, sure, because, and then you can tell yourself, yeah, I know these guys, but what are the actual, you could kind of talk yourself through that. So for me, that's the difference. And that's why I think that that education piece is so important because people don't even know what they're up against. 

01:16:02 Erin: They don't. And also I am not saying that that is, normal train of thought because I talked about that shit with my therapist today before we got on this. I was like, this is fucked up. I am constantly like, I'm noticing the hypervigilance and this is like baseline stuff. And so I know it's not normal, but I'm also a mental health professional. And I know what to look for.

01:16:21 William: So I don't include you. I don't include you guys in the normal category. Okay, so I'm just saying. 

01:16:27 Cinnamon: Thank you. 

01:16:28 William: But it is, it's a good illustration of when my neighbor fears something versus when I fear something. Or even my wife, when my wife fears something, I know, you know, I mean, it's just, it's like you said, you look into it, you are… And I think you get more than the secondhand smoke. I think you guys have a great understanding of what it is everybody goes through. But just a little bit more knowledge, if left unchecked, can say, can drive a person crazy. 

01:17:00 William: And so having that piece that say, yeah, this is a fire hazard, but doesn't mean your house is going to burn to the ground and whatever, you know, like, it's probably going to be okay. We skip that piece. We just say, pull it out of the wall, throw it, you know, whatever. And not tell them that, hey, that was a normal thought that you had and let's address that. So yeah, that's what we're missing and it's huge. 

01:17:25 Erin: It is huge. 

01:17:27 Cinnamon: I mean, honestly, this is one of those episodes that we could probably talk, for three more hours, even if that was just me reading all of the sections of your book that I underlined. Because, the tabs, I didn't tab every, but I underlined. 

01:17:42 William: Wow. 

01:17:43 Cinnamon: But I think you've done such a great job today, kind of communicating that, need to be included. Let's move you from the redheaded stepchild position into the center stage, right? In the middle of the boat, because, what you're experiencing, you know, I don't wanna minimize the differences, but it's not anything that our other first responders cannot relate to. Your experience is no less impactful because you're not out in the public. And in fact, it's the reverse, right? That you are in an environment where the judgment that you need to be on your guard because you're surrounded by “criminals.” At least when you're on patrol out here, you get to save a couple cats and old ladies across the street. 

01:18:37 Cinnamon: So recognizing that need to be included, recognizing that need for corrections officers to be informed of what this looks like, because if we haven't historically recognized you, then that means we haven't been speaking to you in the context that is important. So if we've got the included, we're doing the informed, what's the third step? What does it look like that may look a little unique from our other first responders in terms of that healing, like getting you all to know that, yeah, we're going to be fucked up and we're not special enough to be excluded and we're not special enough to be different. What do we do next? What helped you and what would you say could potentially help others? 

01:19:28 William: Show us that you love us, right? Like when I tell you, you know, you say, I love you, I love you, I love you. You mean a lot to me. You're included. But my actions don't say that, right? So it's the follow through. It's public acknowledgement of, and some agencies are really good at it, but we are a population of people that have been in an abusive relationship for a long time. And so we won't even, you ever watch those Sarah McLachlan dog ads where the dogs are whooped in the corner of the cage? 

01:20:00 Erin: Yeah. 

01:20:01 William: Right, yeah. 

01:20:02 Cinnamon: In the arms of an angel?

01:20:03 William:  That's what we are. And it's gonna take a while to first of all, earn our trust and to get us to understand that we have problems and that we are worthy to be at this table. I think as with any dealing with anybody in crisis or anything is, is this that follow through, right? You have your initial response, you stabilize them and then you got to check on them in a few days and you have to show them, right? 

01:20:30 William: So I have for me just personally, several examples of people that have treated me as just corrections and that they say, well, hey, we give this discount to law enforcement, but you're not law enforcement, you're just corrections. Knowing that those people have absolutely zero idea what I have to do on a daily basis. In fact, one of those organizations allowed volunteer firefighters to be a part of it, but not full-time correctional staff. And just that ignorance of what it is that we actually have to go through would be helpful. 

01:21:05 William: And I think conversations like this, you guys, including corrections at your table is very helpful. It just is that, now we just need to say okay from this point forward This is how we're gonna interact. Like this is what are, you know, you are part of the family that we talk about and I think that would be huge moving forward. If people outside do that, then I will, from the inside say, hey dummies, listen to them because they're actually trying to help you, quit shutting them out. So it's a two-fold approach, outward looking in people. 

01:21:43 William: And because there are police officers that say, I couldn't do what you do, man. I said, well, thank you, I appreciate that. I couldn't do what you do either, but will you let the person who's given you free coffee at the gas station know that so they'll give me free coffee? Like, can we share that information with the world a little bit? You know? But no, I mean, that's the thing. And it… 

01:22:03 William: These jobs where people willingly sacrifice, not only their physical health, but their mental health, their spirituality, their look on humanity, their families sacrifice, all of that, we just all need to know that we're important and that somebody out there appreciates what we do. Because at times, nobody feels like it. So, especially with that darker worldview. So that's what I would say. 

01:22:28 Cinnamon: Well, for those of us who are waiting out here as parolees come out or bail or bond gets set, thank you for, even if it's not shown always to yourselves, thank you for the compassion and care that you provide those inmates to increase the likelihood of that rehabilitation and that they don't have to visit you again. I think that is probably one of the most profound things I got out of the book was the idea that, you know, I've worked in corrections before I worked with Ohio's Department of Rehabilitation and Corrections, and I worked in Illinois. 

01:23:11 Cinnamon: And working in prisons as, like a contractor, that was one thing that I know people didn't always know was going on on the inside, the effort to rehabilitate. And we focus on the, like prison break kind of bad stuff, right? And it diminishes the contribution beyond security that you're actually, there is that effort to, okay, you got put in the corner, you're on a timeout. And while we're here, we're gonna learn some skills, social skills to help you go back out there. And you may be all they get while they're on the inside. And that is so important for us to know and to appreciate, because it does make your job more than what we oftentimes think. 

01:24:13 Cinnamon: And whoever that gas station attendant is that doesn't wanna give you free coffee, you get to tell her, maybe even bring in a little drawing, here is the umbrella of law enforcement. We are underneath it. 

01:24:26 Erin: Says the mental health clinician for first responders. She's the one. She's the one that gave you the coupon. And yes, people still use coupons by the way. You said that earlier. 

01:24:34 William: Oh, okay. Well, I don't go to the store. I can't be around people. So I just shop online. I mean, that's, you know, so I don't even know what people are doing. 

01:24:42 Erin: Yeah, one of the perks of COVID really like emphasizing the shopping online thing, you know, which again, that's a whole nother conversation. 

01:24:50 William: Right. 

01:24:50 Erin: But well, we thank you so much. And Cinnamon’s, right? We could talk to you for hours and hours and hours. And that is the goal. Like for us to continue to work together offline, in the streets, get to meet you in real life. I would hope soon, sooner than later, you are in an untouched state in the country that we haven't really talked to anybody yet and that we haven't gone to conferences in and we're just not part of. 

01:25:16 Erin: And so whatever that looks like for us to help you with what you're doing and continue to move that movement and whatever that looks like, please let us know because you are now part of this crazy ass circle that we've started to create for ourselves, which we love, it's great. 

01:25:34 William: Nice, nice, very good. 

01:25:36 Erin: Yeah, of course. So just as a reminder, William is the author of two different books, When Home Becomes a Housing Unit and The Nothing That Never Happened. Both books have been uploaded to our resource center and page on AfterTheTonesDrop.com for easy access. We really, really suggest that you check those books out. Cinnamon, as you've heard throughout the show today, has been all kinds of excited about it and it is an awesome book.

01:26:08 Cinnamon: It is, and it resonates with me, right? So not only is it resonating with corrections officers, but it is going to land so many points about how, pick your uniform, but there are some overarching themes that present themselves among first responders regardless of what you're doing. And yes, if you can manage to get through this without underlining, highlighting, or putting little tabs on pages to refer to. Maybe we'll put a picture of what I've done to this poor book. 

01:26:45 Erin: Then you don't have ADHD. No kidding. 

01:26:47 Cinnamon: Right. And yeah, if you can get through it, then maybe you don't need that at all after all. 

01:26:54 Erin: And it is a really easy read. It's direct and to the point. So it's awesome. But in addition to the books, we want to plug Just Corrections with William Young on YouTube. So many great little nuggets and some passionate videos on there. So please go over there and check him out and yeah, get yourself some.

01:27:17 Erin: Thank you for joining us for today's episode of After the Tones Drop. Today's show has been brought to you by Whole House Counseling. As a note, After the Tones Drop is for informational purposes only and does not constitute for medical or psychological advice. It is not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Please contact a local mental health professional in your area if you are in need of any assistance. You can also visit AfterTheTonesDrop.com and click on our resources tab for an abundance of helpful information. And we would like to give a very special thank you and shout out to Vens Adams, Yeti, and Sanda for our show's music.