The Nesting Doll Concept: ACES Part 2

EP28: The Nesting Doll Concept

Erin: we are back and in person together in the same room, which obviously, if you're not watching this on a video and you're just hearing us, you would never know that. But we are. But we are. We're sitting right next to each other. 

Cinnamon: wouldn't you also say that this is the first time? That we've really done anything like this where the whole point that what we want to make sure we convey is in the video part.

Yes, that is true. So oh my god is this where we cross over to being like the sweaty balls girls? 

Erin: Oh yeah, we've heard that before. That we sound like the sweaty balls. What is the delicious Dish. Delicious dish. Yeah. Yes. From SNL.

Cinnamon: So this is where we cross over. Hi.

Erin: Hi. your muffin is crusty. . . 

Cinnamon: Oh, that's what she talks about. I know. I just didn't see it coming. I wasn't ready for it. Oh, I was thought you were gonna like. Start to recap last episode. I should have yeah We're choosing new roles, but we are 

Erin: recapping a little bit of last week's episode and If you've listened and been listening, then you will know that episode 27 We started talking about aces which is adverse childhood experiences, which we know that we get very excited about this because we know how much those experiences from our childhood impacts our life moving forward. And that sometimes we're still doing things in such a way that are based from, old coping mechanisms, old survival tactics. 

Yeah. So if you listen to episode 27, we had talked about how this ACEs adverse childhood experience is going to be a two parter, but Cinnamon and I have thought long and hard and we decided to make it a three parter because there's so much juicy information in.

This particular, set of things, these different, what's the word I'm looking for?

Cinnamon:  the word you're looking for...

Erin:  I don't know the word I'm looking for, but the point is, that there is way too much for us to break down into two episodes. And so we decided. We were going to make it three episodes.

Cinnamon: So I don't want to mislead our listeners. We probably could have gotten this done in two episodes, but we like to talk and we like to give examples and we like to explain and we have what we feel like is a really strong metaphor and learning tool. And we wanted to capitalize on that.

That's right. We want to make it land. We want to make it stick. We want it to make sense. We, want somebody to be able to not be like, yeah, I listened to this podcast on ACEs. Oh yeah. What's ACEs? I don't remember if their takeaway is, Oh my God. So I learned this thing about these nesting dolls.

And I never thought of it that way. And this is brilliant. And I'm going to explain it to all my peers. Fantastic. We did our job. So maybe sometimes we don't have the most direct line between A and B, but by God, it's a journey of nothing but entertainment. we will get there. so the long and short of it is that we have split this up into three episodes because this particular episode we really wanted to cover how life experiences, how the way we were raised, how different turning points in our lives have directly affected who we are today, how we cope, how we handle stress, how we handle relationships.

That's like an umbrella that under that umbrella is adversity and then all the other like just Childhood, right? Like it doesn't have to be a negative experience to Have it be a part of who you become as you develop into an individual. It can be a positive thing too But just that we don't turn 18 and all of a sudden start from scratch Yeah, or we don't turn 18 and all of a sudden we figure out how to adult Flawlessly we know that yes, we see it in people We just don't know necessarily how to apply it In these circumstances are in this way when we talk about these topics. 

And it's ironic how much of an actual influence it has on us on a day to day basis because when folks come to therapy for the first time to maybe address some current life stressors, whether it be occupational or, just part of the challenges of being a first responder family, one of the things that we get asked a lot is, you We're not going to have to talk about my childhood, are we?

I think there's this caricature of we're going to make them lay down on a sofa and tell us all about their childhood. Which I would love to be like, Oh no, don't worry about that. We're not going to do that. We're going to start with today. And what's going on. But... To be able to unpack today, we have to figure out where your relational style started and how those, moments of communication that aren't going so smoothly may, originate there so we can start helping somebody do something different.

Erin: Mm hmm.

Cinnamon: That may be more reflective of what they want to communicate or how they want to communicate or what they just want the nature of their relationship with other people to be like. Mm hmm. 

Erin: Yeah, so if we're gonna recap what they missed in episode 27, we're not gonna give it all to you because we want you to go back and listen for sure and it's gonna make a lot more sense if you do that before listening to this episode, but what would that recap be?

Cinnamon: like you said, the whole episode was about what we call adverse childhood experiences. And so we talked about the history of the aces, What it is, why it exists, who did that original research, what the findings were in terms of seeing that the experiences, that, give us the opportunity to face adversity.

How they affect us in the long term and how those things don't just happen in, a bubble, and that they really do play out through the rest of our lives, but how in particular they impact our physical and social health, which is including, this correlation between high adversity as a child and things like heart disease and diabetes, which seems like how do you get from.

I got yelled at as a kid to now I'm diabetic, which if that sounds a little nutty to you and you haven't listened, now would be a good time to pause and go back to the previous episode. and then we talked about for me, it's really important, especially with the population we work with to be able to break down what these categories of adversity are.

We don't always think about our own experience, being representative in, those, areas, but this is never about bashing anybody's parents or how they were raised. Yeah. I think some of the greatest parents who are doing, whatever it takes to ensure that the children that they love have the very best life possible those kids are still going to face adversity.

But Two of the areas are abuse and neglect, and when it comes to abuse, it's, physical, emotional, and sexual. When it comes to neglect, it's physical and emotional. And then there's this other category of household dysfunction. And so what do we consider household dysfunction? It's going to be things like 

Erin: parents fighting. Alcoholism in the home.

Cinnamon:  Domestic violence. Addiction. Mental health issues. Incarceration. probably one of the most frequently checked boxes would be divorce. I think that,The impact that divorce can have on a family, yeah, we can all recover, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't leave an imprint on how we view relationships, how we view even marriage or commitment.

What we want to do and what we don't want to do, what we want to expose our kids to and what we're not willing to. 

Erin: Yeah. And here's something that's really interesting that happened at the first responder conferences we did in Columbus was during our break, when we did this presentation, a gentleman had walked up and said, my parents weren't divorced, but my grandparents were.

And so does that mean that I am a product of A divorced family and he said, because I wonder if the ripple effect of my grandparents being divorced had an impact on my parents and therefore it impacted me in some capacity. And the answer is, I can't see how it wouldn't, Because there's still going to be that level of, disconnect in some capacity.

So we're not assuming, Hey, because. Your grandparents were divorced. that means your parents didn't know how to parent, but the point is there can be, 

Cinnamon: okay. So let's play that out. Yes. I am the grandparent, and we decide in the best interest of our own happiness, we are splitting up and our children are then, going to endure whatever level of suffering that they may, because now they're having to readjust to something different, they're a two family household, whatever that looks like, and they may, Then decide I will never get a divorce because I never want to do this to my kids, right?

And so now, let's say that gentleman which he did not share anything else about his story But he's a great example to use he's being raised in a household where maybe there's a lot of conflict and arguing people not getting along not being loving maybe they're relationship isn't connected But by God, they're not gonna get a 

Erin: divorce, right? They don't want 

Cinnamon: to expose their kids to what they endured, but instead now they're exposing their kids to something that they did not endure. And that person that approached us, let's say he has kids and his new opinion is, I will never ever stay in a marriage and expose my kids to that much hostility.

When I have the option of. Giving them a chance to see both parents in separate households being the best versions of themselves and living a happy life Yeah, So it's almost like this 180 every generation. So yeah, I don't think that we can't regardless of what we know technically about like the aces and the questions that were asked the answer to him is Of course it does.

Erin: Yeah, it's gonna have that ripple effect. You hear about it all the time let's break this generational Stuff that's been handed down over and over and over this cycle and I do want to invite you to, if you haven't done this already and you didn't do it the last episode, we did provide a little assessment that you can take on your own to find out what adverse childhood experiences have occurred?

Perhaps affected my life and who I am today and having a better idea of where you score in that department 

Cinnamon: and can we put the link again in the show notes for this episode? Of course. If I ask you to do things for me while we're on air, I'm more likely to get a yes I need to put that little note in the back of my head Which I would 

Erin: have done it anyway, but anywho now you get to see us in our real banter If you watch any of the video, but so Erin, yes, 

Cinnamon: ma'am I think before we move ahead We probably also should say in the last episode we talked about how those Experiences feed into how we operate in our own adulthood, but also we talked about how those things impact the body and the brain.

So it's not just this emotional piece, but there is some physiological aspects to it. And I think when we generally think about or talk about mental health, we neglect to, include, understand, consider how much physiology there is in emotional health because our bodies are reacting to all of it. So maybe it doesn't, look like something that we can find on a CAT scan or an MRI.

 But. It is having a physiological reaction, and over time, those physiological reactions can lead us to places like high blood pressure and, the like,Yeah, 

Erin: and so much of that childhood stuff can show up in ways that we handle stressful experiences in our adulthood. And here's what I mean by that.

I don't know if I've talked about this on here or not, but I have this version of me that I call my four year old little girl. Yeah. And this four year old little girl, her way of coping is through temper tantrums, slamming things, sheer frustration, just the same way that you would see a four year old throw a temper tantrum.

Kicking dirt. And, why is that? because when I was four years old, that worked. Like that either got me the attention in some capacity, even if it was negative attention, it worked. And so my body and my brain's like, Ooh, let's store this for later. We're going to hang on to this little tool, so that later we can be like, I know what to do when there's conflict.

 Well, here's the thing. I'm 42 years old and it doesn't work to be a 42 year old who throws a temper tantrum. Doesn't mean that I don't do it. I do have my moments, but I also have an awareness of. Okay. I am feeling this particular sensation in my body, which for me is like in my stomach. And I know that when that little sensation shows up, that my four year old is going to come out and try to handle things.

and so I'm not sure if you all have heard about the book, the body keeps the score, but it is a fantastic book and. essentially it covers all of this and how just because we become a year older doesn't mean any events or experiences just all of a sudden go away. We accumulate things kind of like a shell over a shell over a shell.

each year we form a new layer on top of the old layers. So all of those coping mechanisms and tools that we use to survive or get by are still underneath the newest layer. 

Cinnamon: I want to go back because I think you said something and if I pointed out, you might be like, Oh yeah, I get what you're saying.

So you said, as a 42 year old. Throwing a tantrum in, the mindset of a four year old doesn't work. And I think we can also say, and it does work, there are times that it works, right? It works maybe to get what we want in the short term, but it doesn't work for us in the long game.

Erin: Right. Here's how I see it working specifically for me in those moments is that I'm at least In some kind of reaction where I'm not stuffing things down. 

 Cinnamon: and you are coming out like hot lava. Yeah. Like it's, you will know why I'm mad at you. Did I say how I was upset with you in the most effective way for you to hear it?

No. But there's not going to be a lot of confusion that I am currently displeased. It can work, but it's not the kind of work that we want as healthy, well adjusted adults. 

Erin: It's definitely an interruption. It definitely creates an interruption, but also when my 52 year old husband is trying to have some type of productive conversation with his wife, who's acting like a four year old, it then pokes at his little kid version of himself who was being scolded then it's two children quite literally trying to have, some kind of healthy conflict, which turns out to be. Really unhealthy and unproductive. 

Cinnamon: It's like a playground fight. Yeah, it totally is. And there ain't no teacher on scene to break it up. No, 

Erin: there isn't. And having the wherewithal that those are parts of me that are always going to be there.

And sometimes they do serve me for a moment. And I did just mention at least I'm not stuffing it down. It's that whole idea of completing a stress cycle. At least I'm getting the energy out so that I'm not You know, exploding later. so it is effective in that nature, but. 

Cinnamon: But it also, as you spew, you're burning the shit out of the people that you love with your hot lava.

That's right. And then I get to go clean things up. And then you also get a close up view of everyone's scalding burns, which makes us feel like crap. And then we get into a shame cycle, which then. Can tend to get us to hold our tongue, which that looks like stuffing to the point where we explode again, like a volcano.

 So to be able to, step out of that cycle, cause I think when we don't step out of that cycle, what we can easily see is people recognizing what it feels like when they do it that way and feeling bad and being ready to change. How they communicate and they have, new expectations for themselves.

But if we're now in that shame cycle, that's maybe, initiating that desire to do something different. They're going to feel even worse when that next explosion comes because all they figured out how to do is to feel bad about what they did and decide they want to do something new. 

Erin: But they don't know how.

Cinnamon: Right. There's nothing else. 

Erin: So because it's so ingrained and learned and so well practiced and this goes back to this whole theory that Cinnamon and I use a lot. with our clients to help them understand, trauma, stressful life experiences, these adverse childhood experiences, how they affect us into adulthood.

And we use this whole concept of the nesting doll theory, which if you've been on our, I'm not sure if you will definitely Facebook, you will see pictures of nesting dolls whenever we go to a conference or something, we bring our nesting dolls because not a whole lot explains it much better than these nesting dolls.

Cinnamon: even before these little, characters came to live with us, the reason they did is, so these are actually my Christmas gifts last year from Erin. 

Erin: And since you're listening, you can't see what she's pointing at, but we do have two sets of nesting dolls right in front of us and 

Cinnamon: From Russia, right?

Erin: Mm hmm.

Cinnamon: They're literal, like authentic Russian nesting dolls. One set is, a police officer, like this is Boris and that's, Lester, right? and then we have also the set of nesting dolls for the firefighters. And there's what, five on each side? And but when this first became a concept, we did not have these.

But what we did have was my memory as a 47 year old watching Sesame Street learning how to count with those nesting dolls that would roll around the ground and I think there were like 12 of them and Because I see concepts and pictures better than I can you know in words That's how I would explain it to people Erin, do you remember the first time I told you about the nesting dolls and explained something to you in terms of the nesting dolls?

Yeah. What did you hear me say, and what did you take away from it that first time? 

Erin: First of all, it blew my mind. and if you don't know what a nesting doll is, one, you can Google it, but it's, they're those little wooden dolls that usually have, five or more dolls that you put one inside of the other inside of the other inside of the other, like from smallest to largest.

And,it really describes the different layers of this, of our lives. Exactly. So when cinnamon first told me about this, she was like, you know, it's like the biggest one is the oldest version of ourselves, the knowing version of ourselves, like the, I know better. basically, I'm as leveled up as I can possibly be in my human experience in this moment.

Cinnamon: the now. The now version of me.

Erin: Right. So with all this knowledge and all these tools, but then, underneath that largest nesting doll, we have the next largest one. And so I kind of look at that one as, maybe 20 mid twenties and. In my mid twenties, obviously, I only had so much knowledge up until then.

But I also know that in my twenties, I made a lot of tragic mistakes. 

Cinnamon: I love that. Tragic mistakes. It was a rough way to go. it wasn't just in my twenties, like every twenty something year old, I made some mistakes. You're like, I made some tragic mistakes. 

Erin: Dude, I about blew up my life in my twenties. So that means that I created a lot of coping mechanisms in my 20s to survive. 

Cinnamon: and it was also based on experience, right? Like when you were 25, you only had 25 years of experience in those life events within that 25 years. And by the time you got to the 42 year old, You had other experiences that allowed you to see things differently.

Erin: Yeah, so inside that 42 year old is obviously still the 25 year old Okay, and then we have our smaller one the next one down which I would say is like my teen years You know like that 13 to 16 when things are real awkward Puberty's happening. You're trying to figure out where you belong who you are sometimes people are getting bullied.  It's just that challenging time for everybody. 

Cinnamon: I think there's somewhere and I don't want to say it's necessarily the teen because I think Every generation it changes a little but there's also that time period where I always say when you're young You live in a kingdom and your mom and your dad or Adults are your king and your queen and you know the royal party and everything that you do Everything that you don't do it's all governed by the king and the queen And so if all you know is this tiny little kingdom, I mean, I remember figuring out not everyone had to do what my dad said there were actually people that my dad was not in charge of that They could like say no like other people in the world Right, like he was not the end all be all for anybody other than the five of us in our house All right.

So there's that time period where Our worlds open up beyond our family and our peers start to influence us more, the culture that we live in influences more. I mean, I was shoot, what was it? Fifth grade when I would drag my phone. into the living room. And it was like a little rotary, rotary phone.

And it was still on a cord. And I would sit in the living room watching MTV cause it was really new. And I would talk to my fifth grade boyfriend and, I was an electrical kid. I was home alone. I wasn't taking up the phone time. But the idea that what I was experiencing at that point,

I, now I'm starting to understand, this whole new area of relationships that I've, never really been privy to because of my age and, And so it's this huge transition period that I think at whatever age that looks like where it goes from Your experience stays within this like nucleus.

Yeah, and then it expands to the rest of the world and you're like He ain't king of shit. 

Erin: Oh yeah. And there's other people out there doing things completely different than what we're doing with different beliefs and feelings and experiences. And whoa, that is freaking, that blows your mind.

Cinnamon: Oh my God. Okay. Can we just sidebar? Because there's a funny story that I just thought of that a lot of my clients have heard when I would try to explain this and I haven't used it in a while cause we use nesting dolls now. Have I told you the story about the poop knife? No. Okay. So I was reading, I'm sure it was like clickbait.

But, it was an article, like tell us a story when you realized that your family did things differently. And it was a story about this kid going over to one of his friend's house and he must have number two'd in the bathroom and he comes out and he's like, Hey man, where's your poop knife?

And his buddy was like, come again? what? And he's your poof knife. Where's your poop knife? And he's I'm sorry. I don't know what you're talking about. And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then the storyteller says, and that's when I realized not every family keeps a butter knife in their bathroom to cut their poop to make it go down the toilet.

Erin: Are you serious? It sounds like they need new plumbing. You gotta cut your poop with a knife, right? Jeez. 

Cinnamon: And at the same time, if you want to spend money on knife or a plunger and you already have a whole, silver set at home, it's easier. But I think that is a very drastic story, way of those moments when you realize not every family does it like my family.

Yeah. My family is not like the universal standard. Of how things go. 

Erin: Yeah. Exactly. that, thank you. It is so hard to come back. Thank you for giving us that, poop knife story. I will never be the same again. I am sure of it. Well, 

Cinnamon: a lot of my clients have heard that. So if they're listening, shout out to the poop knife historians that this is not new.

Erin: You're welcome listeners. Now you're a part of this club. Yes. but back to the nesting dolls real quick. Obviously then we're going to go down to the second to smallest, I guess we'll 

Cinnamon: say. What is your second to smallest? Is it is a person. It's a little 

Erin: person. Okay. Cinnamon's is a fire hydrant. Yes.

because I have the police set. And so this is probably my four year old, the one I was just talking about. The one who was learning how to be seen, who was learning how to be heard, who was learning how to find her independence, who was maybe even being scolded for her big emotions. All of those. Things that sometimes as children we get punished for, but we're really just trying to figure out how to show our emotions and our feelings and all of that. And then we're told we're wrong, which is something that really does fold into adulthood. 

Cinnamon: yeah. And you think about it, I'm four, I'm having all of these feelings. I'm, starting the bare minimum of any kind of independence. And I don't know how to effectively communicate my needs.

I don't know how to say necessarily, I realize I'm getting cranky because I'm tired. and I probably should go down for a nap. I'm sure there are kids out there that do that. Right? So you're still trying to navigate and so by common sense it's gonna say you're gonna fuck it up as a four year old.

Like you're not going to be highly skilled at that. 

Erin: You don't have a lot of self awareness. Because, why? More tools! Well, and the thing is, like, children live much more in the present because they don't have all this outside 

Cinnamon: baggage, 

Erin: crap, to influence that present moment.

Which is actually a great segue into the final nesting doll, which this is the smallest nesting and all, this is the baby version of all of the nesting dolls. And something that I shared with Cinnamon, I added my own little swing onto it more recently when I'm talking about this with folks is that.

Notice that the smallest one is also the solid one, the wood one, the baby one, the one that is at its purest, right? That has not been influenced in any way, has not experienced necessarily the awfulness or even the beauty of the world, like either side of it. It is the most untainted, purest version of who we are.

Cinnamon: But then let's say we add on the layer of attachment styles, going back to, some of those childhood adversity categories, if I am a crying infant, and Crying is the only way I have to get your attention to let you know that I'm Uncomfortable in distress whatever and you ignore me it's not like I can get up and walk and be like, hey mom You stupid pay attention to me, right?

So I'm just gonna give up Which is really sad and it makes me think of back in the 80s they would talk about orphanages where you could walk in and it would be like radio silent. Yeah, because they stopped crying 

Erin: because nobody paid them attention.

Cinnamon:  There were so many and so few staff that like, it was, hit or miss. So even at our most purest form, we are still being influenced by Our own attachment style, like if we have, adult people in our lives that respond to us in a nurturing, efficient, quick,not a month later they come and check on whatever I'm crying for, but if I get responded to quickly, efficiently, effectively, and in a loving way, then I'm going to assume Or continue the assumption that I will be taken care of, right?

But if that doesn't happen, then I'm learning a very, very difficult lesson early on that is I can't count on other 

Erin: people that are supposed to take care of me, especially the ones that are supposed to love me the most. Yeah. so. We go through all of that to give a better idea and more of a visual idea of how all of these parts still very much live inside of us, inside of our knowing adult, 42, however old you are, version of ourselves.

And just because we level up in years doesn't mean All those other versions of us aren't still in there, aren't still making decisions for us, aren't still trying to run the show or protect us, just because we, quote unquote, know better 

Cinnamon: now. and I'm glad you used that word because when I think about it, and as you were listing off what they do, one of the things that popped in my head was confuse us.

Yeah. Because I can say as. The adult version in the current moment sitting here. Like I know, and yet I still feel So like, I know that you love me. But I also feel sometimes that you don't care about my opinion, and this is clearly an example, but I can know one thing, or I can say, I feel unlovable.

But yes, I know that people love me. Therefore, if people love me, I must be lovable. But that doesn't mean I don't still feel. Unlovable, right? I always think of it as the largest current doll is the one that knows And it's battling against another version of our past selves that doesn't know That feels a very different thing and there's that internal battle.

Erin: Yeah that rages within us Yeah, and that's something that we touched on in the last episode was that there's this common thing I'm like, why do I still do this? Why am I like this? Why is this who am and the answer is because it's who you are And it's taken a long time to get to that version of who you are.

Like it's been very practiced, so who, whatever I was doing when I was four, that's probably one of the most practiced behaviors there are. And in order for me to no longer do that. Or do it less, I will say, like it takes intention and mindfulness and practice and really paying attention to my body and basically the dashboard lights before the reaction and the temper tantrum fly out of my mouth.

Cinnamon: okay. So what you said earlier was when the precursor to your four year old coming out is you get a negative sensation in your stomach. Yep. And you know that now. So when that sensation comes up and you notice it, you at least have the information and maybe you don't do it a hundred percent of the time, but you have the capacity through that knowledge to take that step back.

So it's before I hit the boiling point, I need to know what it feels like in my body. before it starts to percolate all the way up and boil over and if I know those first stages Of I'm getting irritated and I know that because my ears are turning red. then when my ears start turning red, I need to get the hell out of there and take care of myself rather than staying in the situation and watching it escalate until the point where you're lava is overflowing. 

Erin: Right, and how do I do that? How do I take care of myself though? Like, I notice the sensation in my body, and I'm like, Oh shit, it's about to come out sideways folks, and I don't want to do that. so I will put myself in timeout, but I won't put myself in timeout and just isolate and avoid, put on a show and pretend like it's not there.

I get to intentionally do several exercises, whether it's breathing, which we have that simple ways to get present episode that gives three different exercises you can do. it's either through mindful breathing or I put on a meditation. Or I will, 

Cinnamon: Call Cinnamon. 

Erin: yeah. Call Cinnamon is almost always in there. Or I will do some stretching where I'm actually being very intentional, with what muscle is engaging in my body. What is helping me, be this strong base that I am. but whatever it is, I'm doing something that's actually working to de escalate that feeling. Because again, I can't avoid it because when we avoid it, it just continues to accumulate and then it really comes out.

Cinnamon: and there's a difference between avoiding. And distracting oneself for a short period of time. So if you're thinking about which muscle to stretch and what it feels like when that muscle is stretching, or what it feels like to inhale and exhale, and you're focused on that, and you're being mindful about it, it's really hard to be going through that conversation in your head about, and then they had the audacity, and then they did this, and then they, right?

So it's switching you over. So you physically can de escalate while you're focusing something else because if you continue to focus on what was getting you to escalate it's going to continue to go up. 

Erin: Yeah. people will say to me, I like that chaos, I like that adrenaline dump, I like that drama, I like that,that, I'm like, it's an addictive thing.

if you actually can look objectively, stand outside of yourself and look at what it's creating in your life, you might not say that you like it. What you like is that immediate hit of the drug and how it makes you feel for that single moment and then There's all the disappointment and the shame and here we go again, and I did it again 

Cinnamon: it's also a level of comfort.

Erin: Yeah, we've talked about this in terms of relationships, when you're used to a history of chaos in your intimate relationships, and then all of a sudden you're in a stable relationship where there's not a lot of fighting, and you're mostly on the same page. It could make your brain think, they don't love me very much, or they're not interested, they're not fighting for me.

And all of those stories that we've told ourselves. To be able to justify continuing what we were doing in the past. Whereas I like the phrase, even pigs get comfortable in mud, right? Like just because we're comfortable Doesn't necessarily mean that we like it. Yeah, but then there's the other side where we like that adrenaline dump, and that we have honed our skills in chaos.

Yep. And so we feel like Man, I am in my zone when there's chaos, when there's nothing crisis like to focus on, then I don't know where to put my hands. Right. Right? Like, mm. Yeah. Oh, and 

Lord knows that you and I are really good at creating chaos for no apparent reason if we really want to. 

Cinnamon: and that's why we say, One of us can only be off kilter at a time. Yeah. one of the two of us still has to have at least one foot on the ground. Otherwise, we're just like going up into the clouds like the old man on the movie Up with his balloons. 

Erin: Oh, he's cute. He is. Cute old man. So we've really recapped and explained how these different times in our lives, these potential adverse experiences do directly correlate with how we handle things, how we react, how we process, How we show up in relationships, all of that, that all of these things are directly related to. Old experiences, behaviors, and coping mechanisms and strategies to survive 

Cinnamon: and to be able to do anything Differently, you have to acknowledge there is a problem to be able to change a problem if there is no problem to solve then we can't solve it.

so when we see someone, engaging in these behaviors that we know Get them results. They don't want that. They're you know coming to us and saying this is what's happening in my relationships And I want to do something different. I don't know how to stop it. It's not that I can just tell you okay Do it this way instead And that will be sufficient because that's when we start seeing people come back and say, had every intention.

I was ready to go. I had my skill and my new way of doing it. And I don't know what happened. Next thing I knew we were in the situation and I was doing the same old shit Yeah, and I'm back here and I feel bad and I feel like I didn't learn anything and I don't know what's wrong with me And so if we say alright, let's talk about how you behave in that situation and I ask you okay, What are some of the underlying assumptions about that behavior?

Like, where did you first see that behavior? And if you're like, that's how, I had to react to my older sibling, or that's how I reacted to, my parent. then we get into, okay, why? what was going on then? And we start to see how an individual is actually crafted, almost like we're whittled.

Away like a piece of wood into This certain shape that has been created by Everything that comes before like, you know, like if you see like a rough edged rock in the ocean and then however many years later you pull it out and it's got sides like you can't make it Sharp edged again but what we can do is At least give you the information about, okay, so now, this is probably one of the few, many, whatever reasons that this is how you react.

And now that you know that, if we know better, we do better. And so we can start. Realizing that we are going to maybe have that automatic reaction, not because we're bad people, not because we're not learning, not because we're not trying, and not because we don't care, but we understand where it's coming from, so it gives us an advantage to actually be able to do something different.

Erin: Yes. Amen, sister. 

Cinnamon: My God, I'm exhausted. 

Erin: I know. so, hopefully this nesting doll theory and, now, thanks to Cinnamon, the poop knife, Theory. 

Cinnamon: helped A or B, right? You've got options to explain it. 

Erin:Which one do you prefer? Helped you figure out and understand a little bit more about how these cumulative experiences in our life pile up.

We build a new shell, they pile up, we build a new show, they pile up, but they're all still in that biggest nesting doll, that oldest knowing version of ourselves. And so when we come back. Next week we will do the final half of the aces. we can wrap it up.

 Cinnamon: Now that we know what it is and what it does and how it has an impact on us and that it can be Ineffective now, it's kind of like okay. Well, what the fuck do we do now? And that's what's coming up It's what the fuck do we do now? 

Cinnamon:Hereis Your instructional, tutorial on what the fuck to do now.

Erin: Yay!