The Other "F" Words: A Deeper Dive into Stress Responses

EP92: The Other "F" Words

Erin: Welcome back to After the Tones Drop. Today we're diving into this topic with our goofy ways and Cinnamon's already changed the title of it, which actually we read each other's minds to change the title of it, and we think that it might end up, one, making you chuckle, but also be something that many of us don't really know a lot about. Cinnamon, what did you change the title to?

Cinnamon: So it was originally the forgotten F words beyond fight or flight, but I was like, no, it's not that we forgot them. It's that most of us don't even know about them. So I changed it to the other F words. as I was saying it, you started chuckling and I actually was not looking at you. I was looking at a document.

So I flipped back to your screen and that's when you're like, Oh, that's exactly what I was thinking. But that's what we do. That's why this works.

Erin: plus it's any excuse to use the F word, any F word, and of course there's the word fine. There's obviously [00:01:00] the other F word that we know that we ask our children not to say, But the F words we're talking about today are freeze, fawn. And now there's a new one. Faint, which I never had heard of.

Cinnamon: Yeah, we

Erin: can talk about, we can talk about. Yeah, it's not a bad thing that we start with introducing the basics. And, we knew enough about the, sympathetic nervous system, that We could say let's talk about fight and let's talk about flight and then when we talk about your parachute, nervous system that you refer to, parasympathetic, we knew rest and digest, it was language that, you hear in an afterschool special, or on PBS,to learn about, here today we're gonna talk about your feelings, and what happens, and the more we know, the more we can take on. And I think since [00:02:00] the establishment of how do we talk in a language that is accessible to everyone, we've started to learn, More about what that looks like and when we first started talking about PTS for the most part we were talking about like combat soldiers right, so there's also this separation or We'll to look at see if that's the right word But I think sometimes in a general way these can also be genderedlike I'm less likely to fight than I am to fawn, and we'll get into what that means and why that could be true.that is some bullshit.

Cinnamon: are you talking about me, like, as a fighter? Oh my gosh, right here on public television, you are calling me I may not 

Erin: are not an advocate for no reason. there is a reason.

Cinnamon: Okay,

Erin: was like this or being an [00:03:00] attorney.

Cinnamon: Here is the thing about why I think this is different. And I would like, to know how you listener, think about this when it's you or one of my clients having an issue, I will go fist to cuffs, right? Like I will advocate for that to the ends of the earth, but when it's me. That's when, I'm like, it's fine, I really appreciate you taking the time to look into it, where I'm like, bitch, get her money. Like it's a different, vibe when you're advocating for someone else versus when you're advocating for yourself.

 And I think that's why, for a lot of people. I see having children is a way that they can move into that Oh yeah, we're not going to do that anymore space because my kid isn't going to go through what I went through. you know, no one is trying to harm Ben. In fact, [00:04:00] Ben could use a little humility.

but on the other hand, there's little cinnamon and I may not be willing to go to battle for me. But having that visual in my mind of that toddler version of me or that young child version of me Sitting there looking at me like what are you gonna do? That will get me riled up. 

Erin: Yeah, and really, we're talking about two totally different kinds of fight anyway. I think the thing that triggers that fight when it's like the mama bear protecting her cub, while yes, you are activating your amygdala, that adrenaline's getting dumped. All of those things are happening.

but I think there is that, nurturing aspect of it too. Likedon't mess with my baby, you know,and I guess it does all fall in the same category, but I guess what it really boils down to is that fight or flight have been the star of the show as far as stress responses go. The other situations, the other three things that [00:05:00] we are bringing up today with the freeze Fawn and faint are equally as important even though they are Uncommon right now in comparison at least so I think it's important especially in this job

Cinnamon: Would even say it's not so much that it's uncommon It's that we don't recognize it when we see it because we don't know it's a thing and that's part of why I wanted to Do this episode Because Iwant to introduce it so when people are behaving in that way, or if they're behaving in a way that brings that out in others, they can recognize that.

if we're going to unpack them one by one, let's start with freeze. freeze is like your body hitting the pause button when the stress becomes too overwhelming. in that moment, When your brain says, nope, I cannot process this right now. And you just stop, you're not running, you're not fighting, you're just stuck.

it reminds me of when we were little kids, did you ever play the game statues where you [00:06:00] like spun somebody around in the yard and then let them go? And however they landed, they had to stay like that. And then. they would have to come up with an idea of what to do when somebody came and pushed an imaginary button.

Um, this is what it makes me think of, I'm stuck in this spot, and if I'm required to do something, it might be like, Ashley Simpson on Saturday Night Live when, they found out she was not singing her song. Wow. Tangent, girl.

Erin: man. I was like how that would dolphining and a

Cinnamon: That was some dolphining.

Yeah. Um, 

Erin: Yeah, and I don't know if statues, by the way, let me answer that.

Cinnamon: Does anyone out there remember statues?

Erin: maybe it was just a Danville thing. that's what you do when you live in the country,

Or when you can safely play on your block with other children. think it's important to say that. the freeze response, it's not just about zoning out. It's actually your brain literally trying to protect you. So it can easily [00:07:00] look like hesitation and decision making or even feeling paralyzed in general high pressure moments. if we're looking at the first responders. and their line of work and what they have to do every day and be in action every day, like making split second decisions. That freeze response can actually be pretty scary because it actually clashes with that, I have to act now instinct that so much time has been invested in for them to learn in their trainings.

Cinnamon: But here's the thing, it's normal, So freeze is not a weakness or, like a cowering way to handle something. It's your nervous system saying, hold up, let me catch up. And sometimes giving yourself that moment to recalibrate can prevent mistakes, or burnout. So it actually can very much work in our favor.

As a strategy to avoid making those mistakes, [00:08:00] rather than a weakness that can cause those mistakes.

Erin: It's kind of like you're, giving yourself a chance to reset. It's like your body's natural reaction of like four, seven, eight breathing, 

Cinnamon: Ooh. 

when it comes to freeze, don't think there's a lot of that thinking. This isn't a cognitive freeze. or actually It is more of a cognitive freeze where you're not necessarily thinking, you're physically not freezing in terms of like your body may not be moving, but your body is catching up and your brain is in that freeze, so it's not overthinking, it's stopping the thinking so the body can catch up.

If that makes sense.

Erin: Okay, if we're clear that Freeze is Well, I mean, it's funny, cause they're all your brain trying to protect you. And we're looking more at I mean, this one flies under the radar, I think more than anything, [00:09:00] like I'm really not as familiar about it, but you said it was probably one of your highlight ones.

And it's just as important. This is something that you feel like you go to more often when it comes to your own self preservation. So fawn is when you respond to stress by people pleasing or trying to defuse a situation at all costs. Even if that means throwing yourself under the bus. And, it's really just your brain saying, if I keep everyone happy, I'll be safe.

And wow, now that I'm like actually saying that out loud, I'm like, hmm, I do that too. 

Cinnamon: Yeah. 

an extreme example, I would say, think about a domestic violence survivor or a victim who is appeasing, coddling, soothing their abuser. Like, you're right, I'm wrong, I messed up, I'm stupid,I'm so lucky to have you to straighten me out. whatever that is, purpose of that is [00:10:00] not necessarily About me thinking that, although that, can be, part of why we hear it, but more so to diffuse the situation because fight is not going to work in that setting.

even freeze is problematic.flee is typically not a choice. Oh yeah, I can sweet talk and hope to get you to calm down. And I feel like that comes up a lot with, our clients and hell, our friends. That are in situations like that. we've all seen this in action, The person who bends over backwards to avoid conflict or to smooth things over, sometimes to their own detriment, like you said, throwing yourself under the bus.

 And for first responders, this may look like over apologizing, taking on extra work, or even staying silent to keep the peace. And, 

Erin: That's for humans. it's not just for first responders, it's humans.

Cinnamon: it's humans. [00:11:00] Yeah. and I was thinking in terms of the first responders, specifically, I went straight to EMS and I thought about the combative nature of some of the patients and again, it's a strategy to diffuse, to not get caught up in the drama and they're like, yeah, yeah, I can tell you're real sick.

Let me get your blood pressure. it's more of what do we need to do to safely get out of this situation or to get this. To move along and not get caught up in the weeds of the conflict or in a power struggle.

Erin: Yeah. And I think that this one too is easy to overlook simply because it looks like. You're being helpful, there's like accolades for it, right? You're getting props for it, like, Oh, that person's helpful or they're really team oriented. But what's going on behind the scenes, if you pull the curtain back, is that it's actually someone being driven by fear 

Cinnamon: Yeah. It's survival. 

Erin: absolutely.

And so what happens is then we become resentful [00:12:00] and we feel like we're walking on eggshells all the time. It can create burnout. And you can also lose yourself in the process because you're having to adapt who you are in order to accommodate other people because you are quite literally afraid for your own safety that's causing you to fawn as the reaction to the stress.

Cinnamon: Absolutely. And what does that mean when you are sitting at your desk at work and you are mad and resentful about the award you just got because everybody voted you as the team player, but you feel like. a doormat.

Erin: Right, like, I don't want this.

Cinnamon: this cost me my soul!

Erin: And also, now they're going to expect it more! 

Cinnamon: Absolutely, again, it's about getting you through that situation safely. But it also creates environment where it's a repeat. Now, moving to the next thing, and [00:13:00] this is the one where you're like, what?

And it's called Faint. 

Erin: yeah, because I'm picturing like how animals play dead.

Cinnamon: wait, how animals play dead or how goats just faint? Like, meh.

Erin: faint in real life or is it like playing dead kind of thing? 

Cinnamon: no, they're not intentionally doing that. it is their body reacting oftentimes to either stress or too much excitement. And that's all I feel like I can say as a goat expert. anything further, and I'm, we may get a caller on the hotline saying, Cinnamon don't know shit about goats. Um, 

Erin: Definitely.

Cinnamon: But yes, I'm going to go as far as saying it's not something that they're doing. It's not like they're playing possum, if that's what you mean. No, they, possums play possums, goats faint. 

Erin: Thank you. 

Cinnamon: And this is [00:14:00] about the fainting. And this one's newer in the conversation, but it's when your body shuts down completely in response to extreme stress.

 Like. Our friend, the goat. Think of it like your nervous system saying, we're just gonna go offline for a little bit. We'll see you later.

Erin: Okay. I'm trying to think of a time in my life where this has happened. Because for me, this seems like this would be like the last straw, almost like compared to burnout. Not like in the moment, but I guess if you are in a position where you are like, it's a life or death kind of thing. I can see how your body would just be like, system overload and it shuts down.I'm thinking of like horrific things like kidnappings or something like that, right?

Cinnamon: Yeah, Ironically, I watched a video this morning.it was not one of the ones that I sent to you, because we communicate in memes and [00:15:00] videos. But it was of a dad at a gender reveal. And he thought he was having a boy, and they messed it up, and then he was told they were having a girl, and he just passed out.

you see him fall over. And, I read a lot of historical fiction, and how many times have I read about a woman passing out and they had to get the smelling salts?we don't see it. maybe in the ways, or we wouldn't have thought about it in those ways, but it does happen.

 It's the idea that you're checking out, except now it's not like with the freeze where your body is catching up and your brain is checking out. This is everything's just shut down all systems.

yeah, I guess when you put it that way, it's like that feeling lightheaded and the physically collapsing and completely checking out mentally. And I can't think of any movies offhand or shows, but where someone will pass out at the shock of [00:16:00] something or something like that.And they I, to get the smelling salts?

Erin: and I don't know, get smacked, get cold water thrown on them,

Cinnamon: Oh, where you have to slap, yeah.

Erin: but, what I was going to say was I have never personally experienced this. I don't think I've ever actively fainted in my life. 

Cinnamon: I can't think of a time either.

Erin: Yeah.

Cinnamon: No,and it also we, may not be the best judges of this because let's be honest you and I can pretty strongly cover the Fight flight and fawn like that. We are good at the freeze and the feint is not what we do even the flight It's not necessarily that we're, in a fist to cuff situation and then we like, turn around and take off running.

It's, the ghosting and the being dead to people. [00:17:00] And,one of these days we'll have to have a whole conversation about why, I think Casablanca is a classic film. but yeah, I wonder what would happen if we had somebody on here talking about this, that was not us.

Erin: Speaking of, I just watched Casablanca over the holidays for my first time ever.

Cinnamon: So do you've heard me talk about my theory of Casablanca, so do you see what I'm talking about now?

Erin: Yep. Yep. It was, it's a, it's a classic.

Cinnamon: Yeah, everybody thinks that Humphrey Bogart, it was Humphrey Bogart, right?

Erin: I 

Cinnamon: Yeah. That he was doing this honorable thing, and I was like, What are you people watching? that is not what just happened. That is self protection at his finest. Let me put you on this plane so you can't dump me again. And then I look like this noble hero that sacrificed.[00:18:00] Bish, nah.

Erin: Yeah. That's the ultimate flight. 

Cinnamon: okay. so you and I talking about this, we can recognize faint might not be as common. but it's something to be aware of, especially in high stakes jobs. And it's a reminder that your body has limits, whether you want it to or not, whether you admit it or not. Like we have, An overheated shut down safety button 

Erin: it's the body's personal, fire alarm,

Cinnamon: or the,the safety shut down valve, right? Like when maybe there's gotta be 

something that, yeah, there we go. Like it will shut itself down rather than jacking up your whole house or whatever happens when a circuit gets overloaded. 

Erin: yeah, that makes it easier to understand. So I guess the point is what do we do with all of this information? And I want to say that it's first just recognizing that all these responses, the [00:19:00] fight, the flight, the freeze, the fawn, and the faint, of the, Frequently unused F's. What do we call it? It wasn't frequently unused. The other F words. those are all normal responses.

Cinnamon: The F words are the F words. The fight, flight, freeze, spawn, and faint are all fine.

Erin: That's right. It's just part of responding to stress. So it's not something to be ashamed of, no matter how you tend to react to stress.it's, just like anything else, it's a learned behavior. It's practice. And then, Our body adapts, right? Like our body, like you tend to go to, fawn more as an auto response.

so it's just really at the end of the day, our brain trying to protect us from whatever.

Cinnamon: And there is no hierarchy here, right? it's not like more evolved people do one or the other. It's just, like anything where it's a conglomeration of past experiences and what has [00:20:00] worked. For you in the past, as well as what we assess is going to work best in that situation. second, learn to identify which F is showing up for you in those stressful moments.

 I think that is part of why I wanted to introduce this, is because if you don't know these other F's exist, you're not going to be able to recognize that as a behavior. 

If we only think in a stressed out situation, we either fight or flee, then when we do something else, we may not give that situation the weight that it deserves.

So being aware is the first step to manage your response. Are you freezing because you're overwhelmed? Are you fawning because you want to avoid conflict? Or are you fainting because your body just can't handle the load anymore?

Erin: Yeah. then, and third, don't try to muscle through any of this alone. That's the important thing. And that is basically what we preach [00:21:00] all day, every day. Is You don't have to do any of this alone. So find somebody to talk to. it can be your spouse or your partner at work or,any other peer or hell, maybe even like, you know, a professional. I think that it's important that we get the tools, that others might be able to offer us, to help navigate through some of these responses in a way that works for you. 

Cinnamon: and What would it mean to say, this is what a healthy human does, if you're trying to figure out how to do this and this is your first rodeo, maybe it is helpful to go to a professional or a therapist, but on a very basic human level, it's talk to another human. This is what communication looks like.

This is what experiencing life. In the context of others and not doing this alone and not burying in shame, it could be like, Hey, so I had this [00:22:00] weird thing happen and I don't ever remember doing it in the past. And have you ever done this? Like it doesn't have to be this dark shame based secret.

It's Hey, I did a thing and I'm a little confused by it. And I wanted to know what your take was on it. that's just humans interacting. We talk about all of this in the way that we talk about it because this has been such a stigmatized area. But let's not put this so much in the category of, mental health of first responders that we can't acknowledge that this is a human that we engage in with other humans and Learn how to navigate life a little bit easier like that's all this is we just did our first responders a disservice Said you can't for a really long time 

Erin: Right. 

Cinnamon: So for our first responders, remember you're not a robot You're [00:23:00] a human being doing superhuman things.

You are going against that wiring and it is okay to pause to process to ask for help,

Erin: Amen, sister. Preach! No, but yeah, so all right, listen, we are working on Inviting you onto some challenges, into some opportunities. And so our challenge for you this week is the next time that you're stressed out, just take a second and pause and ask yourself, okay, which F word that's not fine is this?

Because fine is actually probably the least used one, like that's actually not the most common F word. And, see if you can actually name it and see if you can tell when it shows up when it doesn't show up and how that works for you.

Cinnamon: And if you can't figure it out, send us a message, leave us voicemail, call the hotline. We are always here to help you work [00:24:00] through this tough stuff, and I think that would be an awesome reason to call in and be like okay, listen to this episode, I'm trying to figure out what other F word I'm engaging in, here's the sitch, and we walk through it with you. that. Would be awesome.

Erin: Yeah. And since we've brought up the hotline a couple of times, if you aren't aware of it, if you are new to the show and you just started in this last episode, we do have a hotline  All you have to do is go to after the tones drop.com. And on the side of the screen, you'll see a little tab that you can click that says hotline, call or voicemail and just click on it. And you'll just actually record onto our. website. So you don't actually actively call anything, but it's a great opportunity to have questions answered or share success, a struggle, whatever you feel like you want to share on there.

yeah, we haven't talked about it in a little bit, so [00:25:00] definitely utilize that. 

Cinnamon: I think when we travel, or even when, we're staying local and we're doing trainings or whatnot, we always end up talking to somebody who brings up a scenario that they weren't sure what to do.

 And know things are happening out there in your organizations. Please, by all means, let us help you navigate if that's something that you feel like might be helpful, because Again, no need to do it alone. And our hotline is anonymous, unless you want to tell us who you are, but still, then it doesn't mean that we're telling anybody else.

but yeah, it's a great opportunity to get your questions asked and get a little help navigating through some of the hard stuff.

Erin: For sure. Yeah, and to piggyback off what Cinnamon just said, don't [00:26:00] forget to share this episode, this podcast, various episodes, whatever you feel like lands with you with someone who could grow and benefit from it. and then of course, keep staying safe out there.

Cinnamon: Take care of yourselves and each other. And remember, you have more tools in your toolbox than you think.