Unwavering Courage: With Michael Sugrue

EP22: Unwavering Courage with Guest, Michael Sugrue

00:00:00 Michael: I knew at eight years old that I wanted to be in a world of service and I decided that I was going to commit myself to the military and law enforcement. I always had a path. I always had a plan. And a very tragic incident happened on my second solo shift. We change this culture and we make it normal to just talk about this stuff, to acknowledge our feelings, really just to acknowledge the humanity of the job as we're exposed to these. I think that we can get through a full career and come out healthy on the other side. And that's where we need our leaders at all levels. We need them to be real. We need them to acknowledge the difficulties that they faced in their career. And more importantly, how did they overcome those comes down to what's the cost of a life? That's the honest truth, because this is costing lives. This is resulting in suicide. And so I ask yourself again, what is that worth? What is it worth to get somebody to help that they need versus saying, you know what? I don't believe this. Suck it up. Go out there and do your job. And if you're not going to do your job, we don't want you here.

00:01:07 Cinnamon: It's the first responder, the first to get the call, the first on scene, greeted by God knows what, pushed beyond the limits that they don't even set. Then what happens? You're listening to After the Tones Drop. We're your hosts. I'm Cinnamon, a first responder trauma therapist who founded our practice after seeing the need for specialized care following a local line of duty death. 

00:01:34 Erin: And I'm Erin. I'm a first responder integration coach. 

00:01:38 Cinnamon: We help first responders receive transformational training, therapy, and coaching. 

00:01:43 Erin: Now we come to you to explore, demystify, and destigmatize mental health and wellness for first responders. 

00:01:52 Cinnamon: Our show brings you stories from real first responders, the tools they've learned, the changes they've made, and the lives they now get to live. 

00:02:05 Cinnamon: A quick heads up before we start. We want to acknowledge that some of the content we discuss on our show can be triggering for some listeners. Some of our episodes may touch upon themes like traumatic experiences, PTSD, suicide, and line of duty deaths. We understand that these topics are sensitive and might evoke difficult emotions. If you are currently struggling with your mental health or have experienced traumatic events recently, listen with caution. 

00:02:32 Cinnamon: You may consider taking periodic breaks or skipping the episode altogether. We want to thank you for joining us today. Your dedication to serving our community is inspiring, and we're here to support you in any way that we can. Now if you're ready to proceed, let's begin. 

00:02:50 Cinnamon: I gotta say, we're always really excited about the guests that we have on the show, and we've had some pretty kick-ass guests on the show, if I may say so myself. But today, this individual that we have on as a guest is a little bit extra, which I don't know how he'd feel about me saying that, but it's really true, if you ask me. And so our guest today is Michael Segrou, who is the co-author of the international number one best-selling book, Relentless Courage, winning the battle against frontline trauma. So if you haven't read this book yet, I advise you to hurry up and get on Amazon or check it out on Audible, because it has now been on Audible for a couple weeks, and hook yourself up because there is some real gold in that book. 

00:03:41 Cinnamon: Michael co-wrote Relentless Courage alongside Dr. Shana Springer, and they tackle the complexities of trauma within the law enforcement community while uncovering the unspoken barriers and outline a path to healing. Michael began his law enforcement career in the United States Air Force as a security forces officer back in 1998. As a security forces officer, Michael specialized in law enforcement, global force protection, Nuclear security, foreign air field assessments, and air-based ground defense. Immediately after the Air Force, Michael was hired by the Walnut Creek Police Department in California, where he served in a variety of assignments including patrol officer, driver training instructor, field training officer, SIU detective, undercover C.A.D.O.J. narcotic task force agent, public information officer, and patrol sergeant. 

00:04:33 Cinnamon: Michael was awarded the Walnut Creek Police Department Distinguished Service Medal in 2014 for his heroic and life-saving actions during a fatal officer-involved shooting in 2012. Michael ultimately medically retired in 2018. He is now a peer advocate at the West Coast Post Trauma Retreat and an ambassador for Save a Warrior. He is a dedicated advocate for awareness, prevention, education, training on post-traumatic stress injury, and first responder suicide prevention. Michael continues to speak at law enforcement agencies all over the United States. 

00:05:09 Erin: So unfortunately, Michael medically retired in 2008, but fortunately he did that because he is here today to spread all of the information and knowledge that he has gained and learned through his experience. And quite frankly, it's a life-changing experience. Well, not only for you, but I'm not a first responder. And listening to your book and really diving in, there was so much that I personally related to, just in that pain of the unknown, just in the fears that I experienced you experiencing. 

00:05:40 Erin: And I even sent you a message on one of the forums we're on together saying, “Oh, I could think I just caught myself getting so angry at what you had gone through and what that looked like for you.” And just the frustration. But what was so beautiful about it is you did not stop, hence relentless courage. I mean, it's just incredible what you have done with that experience of struggle. And we talk about turning obstacles into opportunities. We've talked about that a few times on this show, and that's exactly what you have done with your journey. 

00:06:14 Erin: So welcome, Michael. I hope I didn't leave anything out. I felt like I was going to read for 10 minutes if I read all of the incredible things that you've done between the Air Force and law enforcement. So so happy to have you on. Thank you for taking the time.

00:06:29 Michael: It's my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

00:06:31 Erin: Absolutely. Cinnamon's already ready. Look at her.

00:06:34 Cinnamon: I know. I know the one thing that in that bio that got left out that is probably the thing that grabbed my attention the most because I had never heard of it. And I can't imagine that a lot of other people outside of the first responder community or even the military world would know is the Phoenix Raven. Like that was something that I was like, wait, what I've like of all the things that we've done with military that was I've heard of all those other jobs you've had all those other roles you played. But that was like the one that caught my attention. And then listening as you talked about the story of and even Dr. Springer talked about like what you go through to become a raven. And it parallels so much of what we talk about. Like y'all can run into a burning building. You can run towards a lot and go through a training like that. But talking about what all of those things did to you is typically more scary.

00:07:32 Michael: Absolutely. 

00:07:33 Erin: Yeah. So obviously, first things first, we want to definitely encourage everybody to either or listen to this book because it is full of such incredible nuggets. And I imagine that many of you will hear your story as you're reading or listening in Michael's story because unfortunately, these struggles are not uncommon in this world. And so can you tell us a little bit about your story and and how you ended up here? Give us the Cliffs Notes of what these folks might be getting into and why this work now that you're doing and advocacy is so important to you. 

00:08:07 Michael: For me, it's a long story. I'll try to make it short, but I knew at eight years old that I wanted to be in a world of service and I decided that I was going to commit myself to the military and law enforcement. And I always had a path. I always had a plan and my career was literally off the charts. I mean, everything was falling into place. I was happily married. I had a beautiful two year old daughter. I just bought my dream house. I was just promoted to patrol sergeant and a very tragic incident happened on my second solo shift and my shift started the day after Christmas 2012. And I won't go into specific great details on that. I talk about in the book, but basically it was a fatal officer involved shooting where unfortunately we had to take a life to save the lives of a couple that this person was trying to kill. 

00:08:56 Michael: And then he tried to kill us. And that incident literally changed everything for me. It changed my career, changed my personal life. It was really the tipping point because up until that point, I'd been a police officer for many years and been exposed to hundreds and hundreds of traumatic incidents, but I never talked about them. I never acknowledged them. I kind of had that mentality that nothing was ever going to touch me. Nothing was ever going to bother me. And I would just detach myself from it. It worked for a while until it didn't. And that shooting really just put me over the edge. And unfortunately by that point, I didn't have a healthy established communication with my wife at the time where I would talk about what was going on at work or talk about what was bothering me or affecting me. And I didn't have those trusted systems of like peer support or clinicians or therapists that I had relationships with. 

00:09:46 Michael: And so when my downward spiral started, I literally felt like I was an island. I felt like there was nobody that would understand what I was going through. There was nobody that I could talk to or trust and open up to. And I thought that if I did, it'd be looked at as being weak. It would be shameful. And, you know, I'd be outcasted by everyone in my agency. And so I suffered in silence to where I lost my marriage. We got sued immediately after that shooting. I endured a four year federal lawsuit. Eventually I was fighting for custody of my daughter, my father, my hero. He was in law enforcement. He's the reason why I became a police officer. He got diagnosed with sudden stage four cancer. I started getting repeated skin cancer diagnosis, and it got to the point where I didn't want to be here anymore. I literally started putting myself in dangerous situations, hoping I got killed in the line of duty. I mean, literally putting my judgment, my officer safety, my tactics aside, and hoping that some bad guy took me out on the streets. 

00:10:45 Michael: It wasn't until another very tragic incident where I was also on duty and my best friend, his name is John Davison. He was a Vietnam veteran and a 35 year reserve officer. He tried to kill himself when I was on duty. And that incident is what saved my life because a month after that, after struggling in silence for four years is when I finally got the strength and courage to ask for help. And that's what really started my journey that I'm on today. And that started my recovery from post-traumatic stress injury. And that's now I'm on the other side of that recovery process and I'm living proof that you can get better, that there's a whole new life on the other side of this and that's why I'm here is to spread this message of hope and healing and let people know most importantly, that you're not alone. I get it. And there's tons of people out there. Also, they understand it and there's tons of resources out there that can help you.

00:11:39 Erin: The thing that you touched on that I really want to reiterate is that there are so many people that do get it and how it is scary. It is scary to to wave the white flag, as I like to say, and, and admit that I need help and put yourself out there in that vulnerable space, because that is in a world that is so controlled, especially with folks like yourself who are used to controlling their environment and having a hand on the situation to just literally go out into the unknown and say, all right, I'm going to put my blindfold on and just trust the process. That is so challenging to put yourself in that position. So thank you for just emphasizing that it is worth it and that it doesn't have to be like that. I appreciate that.

00:12:22 Michael: Exactly. And I waited too long. You know, my message is also saying that we can be proactive about this, that we can prevent people from getting to the point where I got where literally I was suicidal because if we change this culture and we make it normal to just talk about this stuff, to acknowledge our feelings, really just to acknowledge the humanity of the job, you know, as we're exposed to these incidents, I think that we can get through a full career and come out healthy on the other side. But when you don't address it, you don't talk about it and you let it bottle up and bottle up for years and years and years, that's when people get to this breaking point. 

00:12:58 Michael: And the fact is that, you know, for military members, both active duty and veterans, but also all first responders. So firefighters, police officers, paramedics, cops, the number one killer is suicide. We literally are our own greatest threat. You know, we spend thousands of hours training throughout our career to, you know, for that fight against the bad guy, right? We train on firearms, defensive tactics, arrest and control techniques, emergency driving, but how much time do we spend on ourselves, you know, talking about our mental health, about our wellbeing. And that's really where we need to go start this in the service academies and we need to bring it up through every possible rank and position and just make this normal, make it part of our everyday culture.

00:13:45 Cinnamon: So Michael, one of the things that you said that kind of, I mean, I already have a page of notes and we've been in this for like three minutes, but one of the things that you said was, you know, talking about like feeling alone and that you didn't have anybody that you could talk to or trust, or if you did open up, there would be all this fallout. And now you can tell that next first responder, like there are people that understand, but if somebody would have told you, “Hey, there are people that'll get it very well.” It could have been where you were like, yeah, but like it's different. 

14:18 Cinnamon: So if you could speak to the folks out there who are specifically saying like, yeah, but your situation was different or you were in a different locale or, you know, whatever their yeah, but is because that's what we see happening, right? Like we have folks like you who maybe not on such a large stage, but who are able to relate and we still see our first responder saying, “Yeah, but my situation is different.” This is how my experience of going forward and verbalizing my needs isn't going to get me a good outcome. Like it did you, like if you had that guy in front of you, what would you tell him about like knowing not only where he is and where he could go, but even that like, yeah, but kind of mentality.

00:15:11 Michael: You know, the thing is that you're right. You know, everybody's in a different situation. People are located in different areas. Every agency is different, but the experiences and the feelings that I talk about in the book are very common and that's where people are really going to relate. And the beautiful thing about this book is that before anyone decides about going out and maybe seeking out therapy or peer support or talking to somebody, you can literally read this book or listen to it in the privacy of your own home by yourself without anybody knowing about it. And the beautiful thing about this is that Dr. Springer, who is a licensed, you know, psychologist who has worked with combat veterans and first responders, she talks about this. Like she talks about the impact of everything. She talks about why this is normal. She explains, you know, solutions and how to move forward. 

00:15:59 Michael: So this book really kind of starts that roadmap to where as you're reading it, you're going to say “Me too. Holy cow. Me too.” You keep saying “Me too”, as you're reading that book. And I think that's going to help set that baseline where you're really going to understand like, Hey, there's a, here's this guy from California. I've never met him, you know, with this doctor and they wrote this book, but yet I'm reading it and they're talking about me. Like, how is this possible? And that's the point is that, you know, I'm not unique. I'm not special. Like nothing that I've been through is I'm just willing to talk about it. And that's the difference is that a lot of people aren't willing to talk about it. 

00:16:32 Michael: And the ironic thing is that's the key to this whole solution, because if we can get people to talk about their own stories, that's healing for themselves, but it's also healing for other people. And, you know, if we look at somebody in the agency, whether you're a firefighter or a police officer, everyone's got a supervisor, everyone's got a boss. Now, how can we expect our people to open up to us as a supervisor if we're not vulnerable ourselves, because there's not going to be any trust there. And that's where we need our leaders again, at all levels. So whether you're an FTO, you're a corporal, a sergeant, lieutenant, captain, chief, and so on, we need them to set the example and in open forums, like on training days or lineups or department meetings, we need them to be real. We need them to be transparent. We need them to acknowledge the difficulties that they faced in their career and more importantly, how did they overcome those? How did they come out the other side of them? 

00:17:27 Michael: And I've seen this happen. I've gone and talked to agencies that I've heard examples of this where it wasn't even planned. There was a lieutenant that decided to open up in front of the entire department and he shared his story and nobody even knew, nobody had any clue other than the chief about what had happened in this guy's life because we're so good at putting up this front. Like everything's perfect. Our lives are perfect. We've got our shit together. You know, we're operational on the job. We're getting things done, but the reality is no, we all have issues. We have family issues. We have health issues. We have work issues. 

00:17:58 Michael: So that's what makes people comfortable. That's what builds trust. And one of the first things that I found after I found a trusted therapist was first responder support meetings. And this is where I met other first responders and they started opening up and sharing their stories. And that's what allowed me to truly see that I wasn't alone for the first time was seeing my fellow brothers and sisters open up fully, you know, just being a hundred percent transparent. That's what gave me the strength and courage to share my story. And that's what we need. That's the solution to this problem.

00:18:33 Erin: Okay. I think we're done for the day. That's a wrap. Like that just, that was the whole damn thing. Like you've literally answered like 90% of all the notes I've taken. So it was great meeting you. Um, no, like that I couldn't have scripted or told you what I wanted you to say. You would have said it better. Like the idea that everybody has got different geography, different circumstances, but the pain, the emotions, the, you know, fear being an emotion, the fears, those are kind of universal and you know, it ties back to what I, you had said earlier, like we are our own greatest threat and you said we were talking about the stigma. 

00:19:20 Erin: And I was like, the job is not the problem. Like what you just said was I could be a police officer and have a phenomenal career as long as the culture allows me to talk when I have problems. So the job is not the problem. Holy shit. This feels like a huge moment. The job is not the problem. The stigma is the problem. You can go through all of these shitty situations and still be okay. If you have the freedom, the encouragement and the willingness to be vulnerable because it's been modeled already to deal with what you've seen. 

00:20:00 Michael: And you need to have that support system. You know, you need to have an agency that, you know, has your back and it's going to back you up. And you know, one thing we haven't touched on yet, I know we will. And we talk about this extensively in my book is admin betrayal or institutional betrayal or moral injury. And that is really the problem because that is what causes people over the edge to actually commit suicide. And in my case, my agency was very supportive at first, but then it got to a point where literally they turned their back on me and that was the real issue. And you know, we're going to go deep in this conversation, but a lot of this ties back to even childhood trauma. 

00:20:40 Michael: And this is something that nobody wants to talk about. Nobody wants to acknowledge because we're all these big bad-ass first responders and you know, we're strong and nothing's going to hurt us. But the reality is most of us, and I don't say all of us, but I say most of us as first responders and military members, we have some form of childhood trauma. And let me pause there and say, I'm going to qualify this and say, there's a scale on this, like for some people it could be like on the minor end, right? So it could be a parent that was always working, was never home. They were trying to provide, they weren't emotional. They weren't, how do you say, affectionate. You know, they weren't there when you needed them, emotionally distant, but it could also be on the far end of the spectrum and be a parent that was abusive or an addict or an alcoholic. 

00:21:28 Michael: But my point is that at a very young age, we actually learned to overcome adversity. We become resilient. We become caretakers. We've become decisive and it actually makes us very good at what we do as first responders and military members. And so fast forward, we're now adults and we never properly addressed that childhood trauma. So it's packed away. We've forgotten about it. We're not going to talk about it. We have these great lives now. We're successful. We're out there doing the job and we found this new family, right? So for cops, it's this blue family for firefighters, the red family. And we, we think they have us, they support us and they do in the beginning, but that moment when they turn their back on us, that's what brings back all that childhood trauma again, that abandonment, you know, that that's what makes this a compounding effect. 

00:22:16 Michael: So you have like childhood trauma, then you have the work trauma on top of that. So I call it the street trauma. And then on top of that, you have the admin betrayal. So literally you have three layers of trauma stacked on top of each other. And each one of these layers has to be dealt with separately. And so if you, you may feel comfortable talking about things, but if you have an agency that's not going to support you and you've seen people ask for help and you've seen them put out on the Island or forced to retire, who on earth is going to ask for help after they see that? But on the other hand, if you see somebody ask for help and their agency wraps their arms around them and provides them with the support they need and lets them come back healthy and come back to the job and do it, they're more likely to ask for that help.

00:23:06 VO: Hey there, listener. If you could ask any question or freely talk about any challenge related to being on the job and no one would know, what would you say? We are excited to share about our confidential hotline that we created just for you. Through this confidential hotline, you can leave a message, sharing a success, a struggle, or simply ask a question. We will spotlight calls and offer feedback and insight from a licensed therapist and a certified coach who work exclusively with first responders. You can access our hotline voicemail by visiting afterthetonesdrop.com and clicking the voicemail tab. Additionally, you can join our mailing list if you'd like, or easily follow us on Facebook and Instagram for all the most recent updates. You know the drill. Tell a phone, tell a friend, tell a first responder.

00:24:11 Cinnamon: That's absolutely right. And of course we're clinicians, so we're super giddy because we're talking about childhood trauma, bringing it up often. And so you're welcome listeners. See, you're hearing it from one of your own and not just from us. There is a real foundation that starts all the way back to childhood. And we're not saying come in and let's talk about from what we've heard from you, but we're talking about the way that you're hearing it from your own and not just from us. And we're not saying come in and let's talk about from when you were a fetus and beyond, it's, but there is real impactful things that happen that continue to show up in your life as you progress. And so thank you for putting an exclamation point, validating exactly what we've been saying because you're absolutely right.

00:24:48 Erin: And I'll throw in because now I just have these statistics in my head because childhood trauma is actually what brought what my interest in it is, what brought me to becoming a trauma therapist. That was long before I even met a career, a firefighter or police officer or military or anything like that. But the most recent study shows that 61% of us in the general population have an adverse childhood experience, right? Law enforcement comes in at 68% and we know you guys fib, right? There's that tend to like drop your numbers. Fire who has a different relationship of loss. Like if I tell the truth, what the loss will be at career-wise, but not necessarily at an individual level, their numbers are 86%. 86% of firefighters report at least one adverse childhood experience when the general population is coming in at 61. And then police are some people, you know, I'm going to assume that it's more like 86, but at least we can acknowledge with what data we do have that it's 7% higher.

00:26:01 Erin: And I've told this story several times. One of the very first times I went to first responder conferences, there was a gentleman, I don't even know if he is still active ever has listened to this, but his name was Michael Jackson. We called him Mike, right? So Mike Jackson, he was a Seattle firefighter and he was a retired Marine. And he said something in his presentation that has stuck with me is that, People with addiction, criminality and first responders are two branches of the same tree. And that when we have childhood trauma, we see first responders go this one branch of, I want to be the help I didn't get. I want to be the help I did get, but I want to be the help. And then we have this other branch that we're encountering over the course of the job that has chose criminality, addiction.

00:26:49 Erin: And now we also know that there's crossover. There we do see first responders with addiction issues. We do see some criminal behaviors like they overlap now. And so it's not just that straight division. It's like, "Okay, yeah." Childhood trauma doesn't necessarily split you down the line, it makes us more universal. And we're at least 61% of us are being impacted by it. And like you said, it can be a low-grade trauma of like an absent, a physically absent or emotionally not present parent. And those are not going to be necessarily the things that we're categorizing as adverse childhood experiences, but they are still going to impact how we relate to others in terms of attachment and how we respond to that rejection.

00:27:43 Michael: Absolutely. And like said for me, and I agree with you on the numbers and percentages because I was in denial of this. And even when I went through my first program called West Coast Post Trauma Retreat, they kept asking about my childhood. I'm like, now my childhood was great. You know, I don't know what you're talking about. And it was, I mean, I had a great stepfather. I had a great mother, but my biological father around 11 or 12 became an addict and alcoholic. He became very distant. He wasn't there for me during those years. And I didn't realize the impact that that had. And so I literally just tucked that away. And if somebody would ask me about it, I'm like, "No, my childhood's good." And I never went back there.

00:28:21 Michael: And it wasn't until I went to another program called Save a Warrior, which focuses solely on childhood trauma. That program is what really opened my eyes and allowed me to see not only the effect on like my career, but on my personal relationships. Like I realized that I was self-sabotaging pretty much every romantic relationship I had because if I ever got wind that somebody was going to leave me or something wasn't going perfect or it wasn't going right, I would just end it. I'm like, "No, no, no, no one's going to end it with me. I'm always going to end it because I want that control." And I didn't realize that. And I was like, "Oh, this all makes sense." And so now I'm the other side of this. I see why my admin betrayal had such a huge impact on me. It's like I can connect those dots. But I guarantee you, you know, there's people listening right now, probably cops and they're sitting there and this is bullshit. I'm not going to talk about my childhood trauma And I was that guy. I was that guy.

00:29:16 Michael: And so I'm telling you, you have to deal with all these layers. Like I first dealt with the street trauma. So I dealt with that fatal shooting. I dealt with all my other traumatic incidents on the job. And it wasn't till like two years after that, finally I dealt with the childhood trauma and it was like, that was the last piece that I needed to kind of complete my recovery. And so people need to really understand that it's not just one thing usually, there's layers here and you've got to peel back the layers and work on all of these things. If you truly want to get better from post-traumatic stress.

00:29:49 Cinnamon: Yeah. And I imagine once you find out about the childhood trauma and become educated about that, did it provide kind of an "Aha" moment? Like, "Oh, this all makes sense now. How this all correlates?" Did that open up your eyes to how the pain felt so deep with the administration, the pain felt so deep. I mean, did you see that in various areas of your life? Like, this all correlates and it makes perfect sense. Now, did that provide a sense of relief? if nothing else that this makes sense that I was affected in these ways. That was kind of like a really weird opening question, but.

00:30:24 Michael: No, it did. And going through that program, though, I also realized just like when I was talking about the work trauma and the feelings that I had in the experiences, I realized I'm not the only one. Like all these other people also have childhood experiences and in the work that I do, I mean, I hear horrific childhood stories. But it's all ends of the spectrum, but I hear it time and time and time again. And when I go through these programs, oftentimes it's these 40/50 year old men and women who have never shared this really traumatic childhood experience with anybody, including their spouses, their loved ones, and they've been holding onto this burden their entire life. And imagine that hold that that has on you. So when I finally was able to connect those dots, it's like, "Okay, now I see why this stuff has impacted me so much."

00:31:13 Michael: But I also, here's the positive thing. I was able to reframe how I looked at my father because I went back and looked at his childhood and I looked at the things that he had to endure. And I realized that he literally was doing the best that he could with what he had at the time. And so I was able to let go of that anger and that resentment and say, "you know what? You know, I have issues I'm dealing with, but he also had issues and it's not giving him an excuse." But I understand now why he turned to those things that he did, you know? And like you said earlier, there are so many first responders out there who are addicts and alcoholics because we turn to these negative coping mechanisms to numb ourselves and to deal with this pain that we don't want to acknowledge.

00:31:53 Cinnamon: As you were talking and even your explanation of childhood trauma, right? Being on a spectrum. I'm wondering, like as someone who uses that language a lot, we've actually had people request that we do an episode on attachment styles. But yet we still always get a lot of resistance with childhood trauma, like taking it all the way back. And I'm wondering, what is your thought? Like if we kind of like how we say PTSI instead of PTSD, things like that. Like, what do you think would be the impact of changing that language from, let's talk about your childhood trauma to let's talk about your attachment or relational style origins, right? Like how you relate to people based on your experiences and what you've learned and in that primary family of origin that is still playing out today, because I think again, those taboo words that keep folks away. I want to be able to eliminate in our vernacular and find replacements that are more likely to like welcome folks. So that idea of like the origin story of attachment or relational styles.

00:33:04 Michael: No, I like that because first responders, when we think of childhood, that was a time where most of us were vulnerable and most of us didn't have control. And, you know, we have these adverse experiences. And so it's like, if we acknowledge say, when I was a child, it makes us feel weak. It makes us feel like we're not up to doing the job that we do because we have to be these people that go out there, you know, when people call 911, we'll want to go to the most dangerous situations without hesitation, run towards danger while everybody else is running away from it. And so I think when you first say childhood, it's like, "No, no, no, we're not going there. That was a long time ago. I'm not a child. I'm a grown man or woman. I'm a warrior and I'm out there every single day doing a job that most would never even fathom doing." And so, no, we're not going to talk about that.

00:33:51 Michael: So I think that could help. Just like we said, post-traumatic stress disorder, that one-word disorder has such a negative connotation to it. Where you feel like this is something I'm stuck with, maybe I was born with it, I have no control over it, I'm going to have to live with this the rest of my life. Whereas injury, that's the fact is that repeated exposure to trauma causes a physical change and a chemical change to the human brain, which results in a physical injury. No different than a cop or a firefighter hurting their back or their knee or their shoulder, right? And so those are accepted and we realize that there's treatment plans and there's things that we have to do. Well, guess what people, it's the same thing with our brain. It's an injury and there are treatment plans and there's things that we can do to recover from that injury, but realize we're never going to be the same person that we were before that injury. Whether it's a knee, a shoulder, a back or our brain, but you can get better. So yes, terminology is very, very important. And I think changing disorder is great. And I also think talking about origins of attachment or however you want to phrase it versus childhood, I think that's a great idea.

00:34:59 Cinnamon: There you have it, sister. That's helpful.

00:35:02 Erin: There.

00:35:04 Cinnamon: And now I feel like, again, like it was great to meet you, Michael. Like everything that's coming out is so just like drop the mic profound and even educational for definitely me, Ideally our audience, like this is, "Okay, you're moving up to my favorite on the list so far." Oh, don't single everybody else out.

00:35:26 Erin: But he likes all the things-

00:35:28 Cinnamon: I know, and what I was thinking too, when you were speaking was we are fortunate that the people that do come see us often they're referred to us. And so they already know that something is working for their buddy or whoever sent them. So they're like, "Okay, I think we can trust these people." But there's still those people out there that are like, you're just a couple of girls that have never been in the first responder world. And what do you know? Which I get that. And we also know stuff. So I'm like, maybe we could just play this recording of him speaking and saying exactly what we would want them to know. And then they'd be like, "Okay. You know, because it's just, it's the come from it's that trust. This is exactly why this podcast began in the first place was so that folks could hear their brothers and sisters telling the story and giving this information as opposed to us. You know, sometimes it's just more received better received that way, so yeah. I'm what, I know Cinnamon, like I know myself, and I know she's just so excited right now.

00:36:29 Michael: No, but you know, you're right. Like my call it, you have to have a therapist or a clinician or a counselor or somebody who is culturally competent, somebody who understands us because we are very unique. And I've heard time and time again, first responders going to some random, you know, EAP, employee assistance program, like therapist who just deals with like marriage or relationships and has no knowledge or baseline of military members or first responders. And so that's really important is in order for us to trust you guys, we need to know that you get it, right?

00:37:01 Michael: But also what really worked for me was that, and I talk about this in the book is that, so my first therapist that I went to that I trusted was referred to me by a friend. So that was going, that was a good thing. So I'm like, "Okay, I'm going to give her a chance." But on our very first meeting, she shared a very dark, deep personal story with me. So she was vulnerable first. And that is what, and that instant I'm telling you right now, that instant when she told me what she told me, I knew this wasn't some crap she just studied or read about. Like she lived it, she survived it and she came out the other side of it and she was living proof that you can recover from this, like literally sitting in front of me. And so from that moment on, I knew I could trust her with my life. And so that's what we need is we need that cultural competency, but we also need that trust and that vulnerability as well.

00:37:49 Erin: Yeah. You want your therapist to have skin in the game and show that they, well absolutely. Cinnamon and I, that's what we've been saying. Like this is not just your regular old Joe off the street. Like they got to be sure that they can tell you their deepest stuff. And the only way to do that is to show a different side of you, which is in our world is very frowned upon because we're supposed to be like these like blank slates and it doesn't work. That's why we are able to do what we do, because Cinnamon and I are not shy to talk about our ugly bullshit from the past. We're not shy to talk about what we've been through and that we do actually understand. And it works, but it's also changing that culture within on the clinical side of how they perceive what is appropriate specifically for the therapist that works with you guys. I mean, there's got to be some kind of wiggle room to make it work. If you want folks to get help, then you got to have some leniency on our end without like giving people a slap on the wrist like, "You're not supposed to do that. You're being too open." You know, I mean, it's like, well, self-disclosure.

00:38:54 Cinnamon: Well, keep it. You're supposed to be this wise blank slate and that does not work with this population and I love that you acknowledge that because it is, it's kind of like these two separate worlds that are saying, "Don't do this." But if you want to serve this population, the population is saying, "You have to do this." And so to have that validated from somebody who has successfully had that experience and knows that it contributed to their success in therapy, especially when we're talking to like, I always say like we handled step one great and we are still doing a good job. Like we are educating our first responder communities. Step two probably should have been been more prepared with more clinicians who are culturally competent when the influx started, right?

00:39:37 Cinnamon: So we definitely are still working on bringing, I think Erin said there's about 2000 vetted first responder, culturally competent clinicians around the country. And we need those numbers to go up because there are millions of you. And to be able to do that, we have to close that gap between what our licensing communities have to say and what you're asking from us. Especially when I don't mind telling you one of my stories of survival and the fact that I didn't become a trauma therapist because I had an idyllic childhood and, you know, could put a drink down when I selectively wanted to like, that's fine for me to do, and I see the value in it. But I think it's important for you to say. So this other half that typically isn't always our audience, that clinical world is hearing like, "Okay." So self-disclosure, vulnerability, skin in the game is an absolute necessity if we want to see our first responders heal.

00:40:39 Michael: Absolutely. In my humble opinion, a hundred percent. I think you have to have it. And that's based on my own experience. That's what I've heard from others because I think it had she not opened up to me like that, that very first day, I think eventually I probably would have, but it would have taken a lot longer to build that trust and build that rapport. And I think you can do it a lot quicker.

00:40:58 Erin: I do have a note that I'm very curious about that came up from one of my bookmarks in the book. You had described kind of like switching gears, dropping the transmission here, it might be a little hard. When you were describing in chapter six of the book about the flashbacks that you were experiencing, The one thing that I heard you say that I've actually never heard anyone describe it this way, and I wonder if it's just a lack of language that you were able to land on, but I wanted you to talk a little bit about, your experience with flashbacks, like having the intensity of that night, except you said, I also had the awareness of the resulting death. Like I knew as I was having this flashback that this person was going to be dead at the end, but I was still having the anxiety of going through it, even knowing what the result was. So it was like the worst-case scenario of both.

00:41:50 Michael: Absolutely. Yeah.

00:41:52 Erin: Can you talk a little bit about that?

00:41:54 Michael: I'm, you know, the flashbacks and you know, I still have some today to be honest with you and it's kind of like this story that just keeps getting replayed over and over and over. And so I've lived through it. So I know what the story is. I know that I survived it. I know that somebody was killed, but as it's happening, it's like I'm right back there and it's, it's that same fear of I'm gonna die. And so it's like, even though I know I'm not, I still feel like I'm gonna die. And it's just this, this kind of parallel thing going on and it's, it's horrible. You know, and that face, I just could not get it out of my dreams for years and years and years and what made that worse, we didn't get a chance to talk about this, but when I got sued federally and we endured four-year federal lawsuit and we had to do depositions every single year, and I ended up a defendant in federal court in San Francisco, the guy that tried to kill me has an identical twin brother. I mean, literally it looks exactly like him. And so when I was in the courtroom, this guy was literally feet behind me, you know, four years later, just nightmares and flashbacks. And now that person is really in the courtroom with me. So, I mean, just imagine the impact something like that has on you. It's indescribable.

00:43:08 Erin: Yeah. I remember that being one of those moments when I heard that like, "Oh my gosh." It's just like, talk about just going back in time and feeling like you're in this like alternate universe. I can't even imagine how much that brought up for you. And one of the things too, that you really emphasize is like, nobody goes into their shift being like, yes, I'm going to make sure that I kill somebody tonight, that's going to be the end result. Like that is the last case, the last resort, nobody wants to do that. And, you know, especially culturally, and I want to be mindful of how I word this, but like what's been going on the past couple of years in society is, you know, this like us versus them kind of mentality and us being clinicians and seeing the other side of it, these civilians have no effing idea what it's like for you guys. And that that's the last thing you ever want to do in pegging law enforcement to be like these like freaking evil people. And that's what they want to do. And it is just, it infuriates me. Cause I mean, I know that there's evil people out there everywhere. People that just do bad things because there are just people aren't always good. But my experience has been that that is the last thing that any of you ever want. And that it's not something that you can erase.

00:44:22 Michael: Well, the thing is too, is that less than 1% of officers are ever involved in the fatal shooting. Now, I know if you watch the news and the media, you would think that police officers are shooting and killing people every single day. And that's not true. In fact, my father who worked in the most dangerous city, one of the most dangerous cities in California and the nation was never involved in a fatal police shooting. And you know, here I am, I worked in a very safe city, less time on, and I was involved in a fatal shooting. So we never know when and if that will ever happen. We pray that it never does happen.

00:44:55 Michael: And the other thing is that when it does happen, like in my case, it still affects me today, and it's going to affect me for the rest of my life. This isn't like you see in TV or a movie where a shooting happens. They're all good. They go back to work and their life is normal. It's like, no, that incident happened to me December 27th, 2012. So 11 years later today, it still bothers me. It still has an effect on me. And I have to live with the fact that I took a human life. And it was a hundred percent justified, I mean we saved a couple. We saved their lives. We saved our own lives. But I didn't want to do that, I had no choice. And that's what I want people to understand is that we don't want to do that. We don't want that to ever happen, but know that when it does, it's going to affect us for the rest of our lives. And it doesn't matter that it was justified and we got cleared in court and cleared in investigations. No, I have to live with that.

00:45:50 Erin: Yep. Yeah. And thank you for really just emphasizing that. And I really want to be cautious too. Like I don't want to be intentionally bringing things up for you live and on the show, because I imagine that would be easy to do. But in something I've said before, I was in a relationship with a police officer where I live, you know, what I didn't know about him at the time until after we had broken up was that he was in this officer-involved shooting. And I couldn't figure out why he was so unavailable and why our relationship was the way that it was until after the fact. And when I found that information out and then of course got into this work, like what it did was all of a sudden everything healed for me because I was like, "Oh, well, this makes perfect sense. Like he was in pain dealing with this every day and trying to not think about it." But I couldn't have ever understood at the time. So it just goes to show that it does live with you in that without seeking the support and help to work through it, that it can linger and affect everything in your life. So thank you for being vulnerable again on here with us and, and going there. And I see Cinnamon is ready to talk.

00:47:01 Erin: Hey there listener. It's me, Erin. I'm here to share a great opportunity with you. I am excited to tell you about first responder conferences that focus on mental health and wellness. First responder conferences presents a multifaceted two-day seminar and networking event for improving first responder mental health and wellness through discussions on the current issues constantly faced by first responders. These conferences will provide awareness, resources, and tools to combat post-traumatic stress, depression, suicide, addiction, stress, and overall wellness. These conferences are not your typical snooze fest department training. They are engaging, impactful, and full of valuable topics and resources. First RC brings in experts and fellow first responders who have been through it all and they create an environment of understanding and compassion. At these conferences, you'll hear everything from stress management techniques to coping strategies that can help you stay resilient. These conferences are creating a safe space for first responders to open up, share their experiences, and learn from one another. And you know what else? These conferences aren't just for first responders. They're also for the families because let's face it, they're the backbone of support. So, whether you're a first responder, a family member, or just someone who cares about the well-being of our local heroes, I encourage you to check out these incredible conferences at first RC.org. That's the number one STRC.org. Let's get rid of the stigma. Let's talk about mental health and let's support our first responders like never before. Join me and Cinnamon along with many other incredible folks at first responder conferences, and let's make a difference together. Stay strong, stay healthy, and be safe. Remember, you're not alone in this journey. Let's do this.

00:48:58 Cinnamon: Never. I'm never armed and loaded with questions. Are you open to talking a little bit about the, for lack of a better word, demise of your relationship? Because that was one of the things that really stood out to me and our book and some of the things that Erin and I deal with our clientele and why they come to us is you have a idyllic relationship where everything is going so well. And then, and you can't imagine this family not being able to, you know, handle any adversity because the love is so strong. And I could hear that when you were talking about your wife and your daughter and buying the house and, then in the book, you don't go into it, which makes perfect sense, but that progression of like, what was breaking down because you were unable to communicate about it. You talked about the one decision of not telling her what happened that night and she didn't hear about it until court. But obviously, that was not going to be the deal breaker to the point where now you're in court fighting for custody to be able to spend time with your daughter. So, we got bookends, but I would love for our audience to hear as much as you're willing to share about what that unraveling looked like because I think our clients have that happen and don't necessarily see it as something that's related to their work. They're like, my problem isn't work. My problem is my relationship. I'm like, yeah, but it folds in. And when you think you're right, you think you're right. And I think hearing how, you know, your experience was maybe late, maybe might land with some of our folks.

00:50:43 Michael: Yeah, you know, I, I made a huge mistake just very early on the beginning of our relationship. And that was, I told myself I would never bring work home. And I thought by doing that, I would be protecting her, protecting my family. And it was one of the biggest mistakes. Right. So, I did that for years and years and years. So, before the shooting happened, when I came home in a bad mood or pissed off, she thought it was her. You know, she didn't know it was something that I dealt with at work because I wasn't communicating that I wasn't saying, "Hey, look, you know what? I had a really bad car accident. I had to deal with today. I just need some time to decompress. I'm going to go, you know, take a shower. I'm going to go jog around the neighborhood. I'll be back. We just give me like an hour. We can sit down. We can talk." And, you know, that's where I should be sharing, not gritty details to where I put fear into her, but to where I let her know that "Hey, this is why I'm in a bad mood or this is why I seem kind of off. That's not you," because if you don't tell them that they're going to assume it's them. And so, she's walking on eggshells around me all the time because I'm constantly, you know, exhausted. I'm pissed off. I'm distant. I'm not present. And I didn't create that healthy foundation of, hey, when I come home, I've got this love, I've got the support, these people that care about me. I can be vulnerable. I can be open. I still had that feeling like I couldn't really be vulnerable. I really couldn't let my guard down. I still really felt like I had to be this protector, like this badass. And I was never truly vulnerable. And I think that is one of the key things in this relationship. 

00:52:13 Michael: And ironically enough, after my shooting happened, shortly after we started having issues and became more and more distant. And it got to a point where eight months later, and I did have a court proceeding where she learned all these gritty details. And I was hoping at that point that she was going to understand it and get it and maybe be empathetic and be that support that I needed. But it was by that point now we're talking, you know, it'd been way too long. And there had been so much that happened before that to where it was lost. And now I didn't have that foundation. I didn't have that support. And so now I really felt like an Island because, you know, there was nobody at work I could talk to. My stepfather had just died from cancer. He was my rock. He was the one I talked to about work and everything. And now literally, you know, my spouse is done and, and now we're going to be in this contentious divorce. And so just imagine that compounding effect. But I think if I would have started early on and been totally open, been vulnerable, been expressive, and talked about these realities at work. Yeah, that would have given me an opportunity to get this stuff off my chest. Right. It would have just, even if I didn't tell anybody else, but I knew I had a spouse I could trust that I could be fully open with, and I'm constantly getting this stuff off my chest as it's happening. I think I would have been much healthier. I don't think I would have hit that, that tipping point that I did, but instead, no, I kept it in, I bottled it up. I'm this badass and I'm not letting you in. And that was the thing is I didn't let her in. I never truly let her in.

00:53:50 Cinnamon: The language you just used kind of struck me. You said to have a spouse that I could trust, because that's about the spouse. Right? That's like, is my spouse trustworthy to be able to share these things with? Like can she or he handle that? But the real question becomes, do I have the ability to be vulnerable with someone who is trustworthy? Right? Cause you've used that word vulnerability, and I would love to hear your definition of it, because I think of it as like the superpower and the exact opposite of what most people consider. But I think, you know, acknowledging like you had that the whole time, and it was the story around protecting your family. Like there was no middle ground between either I tell them the gritty details, or I don't even acknowledge that anything's bothering me, and then they get up in their head, we call, like there's a social engagement system, we call it a biological rudeness. If you're not familiar, it's an amazing, like to know what that is, is really cool. But to be able to separate the difference between somebody can still be trustworthy and I'm not doing my part in that relationship because my part is that being vulnerable and being willing, even if it's well intended, like protecting your family. 

00:55:04 Michael: Absolutely. And that's what brings you close together. That's what bonds you. That's what I didn't have that because I never let her in like that, you know? So, I'm taking blame on that. I'm taking that ownership and I think had I done that, I think she would have been there for me. I think that our relationship would have been stronger, and we'd probably still be married today, you know? But I didn't do that. And part of that, again, part of that goes back to my childhood trauma, right? It's that protective, you know, mechanism where it's like, I'm going to keep my guard up. I'm not going to let anybody fully in because if I let them fully in, guess what? They're going to hurt me. And that's the mentality is that.

00:55:39 Cinnamon: And what I was going to ask you was, do you think this had to do with your attachment or relational style origins? 

00:55:45 Michael: Absolutely. 

00:55:46 Cinnamon: Right. Like it's not necessarily like we could hear that as like a failure on your part, but who the hell modeled that for you? 

00:55:53 Cinnamon: Absolutely. 

00:55:54 Cinnamon: Right. Like who made that a consistent thing? And knowing about your age, like I know I was raised by not just a baby boomer, but a silent generation person, you know? And that is they were doing the best they can. And that was not, like we didn't talk about feelings, you know, we put dirt on it, you know, so to, to try to create a pattern of behavior that you've never seen is tricky.

00:56:23 Michael: But ironically enough, I'll just say I've broken that cycle with my daughter and, you know, with my daughter, I'm very affectionate. I'm very open. I'm very expressive. And so there is hope, right? Cause I did learn what not to do, but the problem is I didn't apply that to my own, I guess you would call romantic relationships, but I have applied it to my relationship with my daughter, who's my everything, you know, I know that that's going to impact her in such a positive way, you know, and that it's going to allow her to have healthy relationships when she's older. So yeah, it's that compounding effect and it affects generations to come. And, and you can be the one that stops it at some point, you know, or you can continue at arm. It's really up to us.

00:57:06 Erin: Yeah. And my experience has been that our generation, we're just assuming we're all roughly the same age is the generation that's coming in and saying, "Okay, this has not worked for 50 freaking years." Like let's shift that up so that we can stop all of this. I mean, there's always going to be stuff like our weak, our kids are not going to get out of this alive. I wish they would. They're going to have their own experiences. We are human too, but it's about learning from your, your own experiences, seeing that perhaps there's another way to try things and shifting it that could potentially change what things look like for grandchildren and, and, and so on. And so, I'm curious though, not to assume that you're in a relationship, romantic relationship now, but how has this affected your other relationships? Obviously, your daughter's relationship has just been this incredible bond and it's changed since you've gone through all of this, but what, what about your other relationships with the folks close to you? Do you see it, those changing now as well?

00:58:05 Michael: I think so because I am more open. I'm more vulnerable and let's face it, my story is out there for the world to see and to hear and to read. And so it's, you know, I can't keep that stuff hidden and I acknowledge, you know, it's, it's the good, the bad and the ugly, and there's a lot of ugly in the book that I talk about, so it's, it's really out there for the world to see. It's, and now I'm much more transparent. I'm not really worried about what people think of me. I used to be so concerned of my image and what people thought of me. And I really don't care about that anymore. It's like, this is who I am. Take it or leave it. You know, it's just me. And for so long, I didn't do that. It was like this, I want to portray this perfect image because I want to be chief police someday and I've got to check all these boxes and do all these things and now it's like, no, this is me. Just take it or leave it.

00:58:54 Erin: Yeah. And I imagine this version of you now that you've done it feels easier. Like you're not having to put this like mask on, you know, over top of another mask to have this persona. It's just like, this is just me. I'm going to wake up and be this way. Take it or leave it. And that authenticity is just so much easier than having to wear all those masks and remember what you were, you know, what you're saying or doing to hold up appearances. So, I am always the stickler on time, and I want to be respectful of your time. I know. Cause an hour goes, it's like not long enough, but I'm sure Cinnamon has one more thing to add, but one thing that Cinnamon and I are, are, are part of that I will, I do want to say, and maybe you, have you heard of first responder conferences?

00:59:39 Michael: Yes, of course I have. Yes. Yeah. I know they're all over the US. and doing good things.

00:59:43 Erin: Yes. And so, we're going to be at the Columbus first responder conferences. We are super excited. Yeah. Columbus, Ohio. And she will be talking all about ACEs, the adverse childhood experiences. And so that is very, very exciting. And our goal is to be, begin kind of traveling with them a little bit. And I know they're going to be in California in the spring. And so I'm like, maybe we can invite you to come along, but I definitely, you know, I don't know in relation, California is a huge state, but it would be so fantastic to perhaps bump into-

01:00:22 Cinnamon: It covers a couple of square feet.

01:00:24 Erin: Just a little bit, to bump into you or, but the point is, is that your story is so impactful and that these conferences have just as many incredible stories that can impact this whole community. And so, you know, on top of, you had mentioned something about these first responder support meetings and I'm not quite familiar with how one gains access to those, perhaps you can share that, but just getting into the thick of it. Like something like first responder conferences and there's tons out there where you're in the middle of the boat, if you will, around a bunch of people that are kind of doing this thing and rowing in the same direction is so helpful. So yeah, I don't know. Just thinking about California is all.

01:01:08 Michael: No, it is. And they have, you know, they have different conferences all over the US. And like you said, everyone has a story. I mean, everyone has a story. And so I love going to these conferences. Like when I speak, I only speak four to five times a year. I speak all over the US, but when I go, I don't fly in and fly out. I stay up for the whole conference. I listen to the other speakers. I network. I meet people because I learn and I, and I experience these things. And so that's what I'm saying is that we all have the power to get out there and share our story. And, you know, it's, there's so many more stories other than mine. I'm just one single story, but there's literally millions of stories out there. So, um, yeah, the more who can share the better. We need more people doing this. We need more people in the fight. And the thing is, I know that every time I speak, when I share my story, I have a line of people afterwards that come talk to me and they share their story with me. And that's the key to this. That's the key to this podcast is that when people listen to your podcast, it's going to encourage them and give them strength to talk to other people, to maybe share their story.

01:02:12 Erin: Bingo.

01:02:13 Cinnamon: Exactly. I'm going to take a page out of Erin's book and be respectful of her boundaries. Um, cause I, we are both talkers. So, into the book, part of what we train departments on, but again, like we said, the first, when they hear it from you, it sounds different from when they hear it with us, but I would, I would like to go back to that final call of action that you have and relentless courage specifically for administration, right? Like we believe in top-down, bottom-up approaches, but we get to work with the bottom, right? And it's a lot more difficult to get the top to listen. And so, I love that in your book, you had a very specific call to action for administration in these agencies and departments. And would you mind sharing some of that for our listeners that may hear it or have heard it from us, but you give that additional level of legitimacy and perhaps the explanation of why it's important?

01:03:17 Michael: Well, we kind of talked about this earlier, but we, we need our leaders at all levels to be open and transparent. I mean, literally to be vulnerable themselves and to share their stories, to share their struggles and how they overcame these. And that's what's going to get people the comfort and the trust to open up themselves. And so, you know, it starts in the academy or FTOs or sergeants, lieutenants, captains, chiefs, every single level. And the thing is, this doesn't cost any money. You don't have to hire any outside speakers like me to come in. Every agency, every department has people within it right now today who have examples, have lived experiences of how they've gone down to the darkest, deepest steps and how they've come out of it. And it's that simple. I mean, the solution is so simple.

01:04:05 Cinnamon: We faced a little bit of this around COVID and using those like exposure time off periods. One of the things that you say in the book is "believe them." And I think that's a tricky component because this isn't untrusting. There's a reason why it's hard to trust doing this job. So, then you've done it long enough that you've been able to elevate. And not only are you unwilling to be duped, but also there's some financial protections in there, right? Like abusing time off or whatever that is. And so, from your perspective, what is that cost benefit analysis of believing your employees when they say they're struggling or they need help versus that breaking through that mentality of like, we don't want to get duped, just whether you're admin or foot patrol that seem resistance to making sure that someone's not getting one over on you. How can that kind of be addressed in our leadership when it comes to meeting the needs of your people around mental health?

01:05:13 Michael: Comes down to what's the cost of a life. I mean, that's the honest truth because this is costing lives. This is resulting in suicides. And I'm going to tell you a quick, real story. Before we published this book, I reached out to different leaders across the country and asked them to read the manuscript and just asked if they would provide their feedback or any thoughts. And maybe if they liked it to write like a endorsement that we could use on the inside or the cover of the book. And I'm not going to say a name or an agency here, but I reached out at the time to a acting police chief. They're no longer, they're retired. And I said, "Hey, I said, I'd love for you to read this book." And I kind of told them the premise of it. And this person told me right away, it's the look, I don't know if I'm the right person to read this because I don't really necessarily believe in this. Like, I think a lot of people are gaming the system and a lot of people are faking this. And I said, "Well, no, I said, this is exactly why I want you to read this because I think this book will help change your perspectives. I think you're going to see it in a different light." At least that's what my hope was. And so, this person says, "OK, you know what? I'll agree to read it" and blah, blah, blah. Weeks later, we check in and the person's like, "Yeah, I'm about halfway done. I should be done by the end of the weekend, and I'll get back to you." So, I'm thinking, cool. 

01:06:25 Michael: Well, after that, this person ghosted us. I could not get a hold of them, email them, texted them, called them nothing, like literally ghosted. Now, I also know that the majority of the admin betrayal portion is in the back of my book. And I really think that that part hit a nerve with this person. And I really think that that hit them internally because they realized how messed up, they've been and what the real results and consequences of believing that and acting like that are, especially when you're the leader of a huge organization with hundreds and hundreds of people in it. So, it comes down to your costing lives. And when you want to talk about what is it worth, what is the cost? OK, so if an employee has to go off work for a few months, maybe go to a week-long retreat, see a therapist, get some medication, do these things, but can come back to work and be productive and live a healthy life versus an officer or first responder killing themselves. That is the reality. And just here in California, like 35 minutes for me, we had a sergeant who was on duty, came into the apartment right after Christmas and killed himself in the locker room of the PD. Now, what kind of message do you think that's sending to the administration? And so, I asked yourself again, what is that worth? What is it worth to get somebody to help that they need versus saying, you know what, this is bullshit. I don't believe this. Suck it up. Go out there and do your job. And if you're not going to do your job, we don't want you here.

01:07:56 Erin: Well, that is the most incredibly beautiful mic drop, beautiful way to end and wrap things up with you today. So again, Relentless Courage is the book to read and now no excuses. You can listen to it because it's on Audible so you can just play it. Well, shoot, if you're on patrol and you're in a slow place, I mean, you could have it done in, you know, a shift. I know I listened to it on the way home from Michigan. So, you know, it worked out beautifully, but we'll make sure that we have all of the information for Michael, anything he's up to for the book in our show notes today. He has shared a really great video too, that I will make sure is on all of our social and everything that you all can check out and learn more about him and see more of his story. And Michael, thank you so much for taking all this time with us and, and for just the humongous impact that you're making in this wave of breaking the stigma because it's massive and it's very, very special. So, thank you so much.

01:08:56 Michael: And thank you for what you guys are doing. I mean, it takes teamwork in this fight, so we can't do it alone. So, thank you.

01:09:02 Erin: Yeah, our pleasure. Happy to do it. 

01:09:10 VO: Thank you for joining us for today's episode of After the Tones Drop. Today's show has been brought to you by Whole House Counseling. As a note, After the Tones Drop is for informational purposes only, and does not constitute for medical or psychological advice. It is not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Please contact a local mental health professional in your area if you are in need of any assistance. You can also visit afterthetonesdrop.com and click on our resources tab for an abundance of helpful information. And we would like to give a very special thank you and shout out to Vens Adams, Yeti, and Sanda for our show's music.