What the Eff Now: ACES Part 3

EP29: What the Eff Now?

00:00:00 Erin: This episode, we're really going to talk about, what do I do about it now? Just because we've done these certain behaviors or reacted this way does not mean that we can't learn something new. We can't adapt and grow. Our brains are miraculous. This is why we're obsessed with them, because they can morph and change, and this is where neuroplasticity comes in. 

00:00:24 Cinnamon: Neuroplasticity is kind of a very formal term for brain change. Despite whatever development our brain has already had, we can still create different pathways, new ways of thinking. It can adapt to healthier ways of being if that's what we choose. Over the course of these three episodes, we hope we've done a sufficient job in helping our listeners understand what adverse childhood experiences are, how they impact our developing brain, how our childhood–

00:00:57 Erin: Childhood experiences affect our now with the nesting doll stories.

00:01:07 Cinnamon: It's the first responder, the first to get the call, the first on scene, greeted by God knows what, pushed beyond the limits that they don't even set. Then what happens? You're listening to After the Tones Drop. We're your hosts. I'm Cinnamon, a first responder trauma therapist who founded our practice after seeing the need for specialized care following a local line of duty death. 

00:01:34 Erin: And I'm Erin. I'm a first responder integration coach. 

00:01:38 Cinnamon: We help first responders receive transformational training, therapy, and coaching. 

00:01:44 Erin: Now we come to you to explore, demystify, and destigmatize mental health and wellness for first responders. 

00:01:53 Cinnamon: Our show brings you stories from real first responders, the tools they've learned, the changes they've made, and the lives they now get to live.

00:02:11 Erin: What I do, wanna say is if you haven't checked out episode 27, which is our intro into the ACEs, the Adverse Childhood Experiences, please do that. Then we rolled into episode 28, which was like our bridging episode, which discussed, kind of like how these experiences in our life, starting from childhood, even infancy and beyond show up in our adult life and how we cope. So if you haven't listened to 27 and 28, please do that. 

00:02:43 Cinnamon: Cause you're missing out. 

00:02:44 Erin: Cause you're missing out and it's not gonna make a whole lot of sense listening now. This is the final episode that we're going to do for the big ACEs presentation. 

00:02:54 Cinnamon: The finale. 

00:02:55 Erin: This is the finale. 

00:02:56 Cinnamon: Like the fireworks. 

00:02:57 Erin: Yeah. 

00:02:57 Cinnamon: Oh yeah. Pew, pew, pew. 

00:03:00 Erin: Okay, we're dorks as you know. 

00:03:01 Cinnamon: Nothing new. 

00:03:02 Erin: Well, we gotta make sure that we tie this up in a pretty little bow for you guys because it's super important. And it definitely translates into who we are and how we cope today. 

00:03:15 Cinnamon: Well, and I also think that we would be, kind of, like not doing our jobs if we were just like, okay, this is why it's all shit. And then we're like, oh, you're just screwed. This is where we end. 

00:03:27 Erin: This is why we're messed up. And–

00:03:28 Cinnamon: There's no solution. 

00:03:29 Erin: Good luck. Yeah. So this episode, we're really going to talk about, well, what's next? Like, what do I do about this? Thanks for the info. My parents screwed me up or whatever, which is not necessarily true, as we've said, it's not your parents' fault. But what do I do about it now? I can't go in my time machine. 

00:03:48 Cinnamon: The DeLorean. 

00:03:49 Erin: The DeLorean. 

00:03:50 Cinnamon: Hop in the DeLorean. 

00:03:51 Erin: I wish I could and change things. So what do I do now? But I know we wanna touch a little bit on the social engagement system. So what do you wanna say about that, Cin? 

00:04:02 Cinnamon: So this was probably one of my favorite things to learn as a therapist, because it felt like it was an answer to a lot of people, what they were expressing as their frustration and their relationships, and created so much chaos and confusion. And then once I learned what this was, I was like, oh, this makes sense, and I can teach people what this is. And again, if we know better, then we do better. So I'm going to keep this as non-clinical as possible. 

00:04:35 Cinnamon: So there's a concept called social engagement system. And so when you think about what is included in our body parts as far as what makes up our social engagement system, it's almost like if you think chest, right? So it's going to be our larynx, our pharynx, our inner ear muscles, our eyeballs, how we read other people's body language and facial expressions and things like that. And then of course, you've got to bring in your heart because that is what, when we are engaging with other people, like what makes, what races, you know, if we're excited or if we're scared versus if we're super comfortable or joyful, whatever. And then of course, there's your brain that is trying to make sense of all this. So I'm going to give you this idea of like, if Erin and I were going to role play.

00:05:37 Erin: Okay.

00:05:37 Cinnamon: Oh, this is fun. Do you want to pick a different name? 

00:05:39 Erin: Gina? 

00:05:40 Cinnamon: Gina. Okay, I'll be Louise. 

00:05:43 Erin: Okay, Louise. 

00:05:44 Cinnamon: So wait, Gina–

00:05:46 Erin: It's Thelma and Louise, but anyway. 

00:05:47 Cinnamon: I know, but Gina is–

00:05:50 Erin: The character. 

00:05:51 Cinnamon: Thelma and Louise. 

00:05:52 Erin: So then you'd be Susan. 

00:05:54 Cinnamon: So I could be Susan. But I like Louise better. 

00:05:56 Erin: Okay, go for it.

00:05:57 Cinnamon: So if we're talking and I walk into the room and I haven't seen you all day, I'm just getting home from work. Right before I walked in, you just had a screaming match with our four year old about eating their broccoli, that is little trees and is weird. 

00:06:15 Erin: Yeah. 

00:06:16 Cinnamon: And I don't know that. So I come home and I've had my own long day and I see you and I greet you with enthusiasm because I am so happy to see you. And what I don't know is what just happened, which is why when I greet you with enthusiasm, you might be–

00:06:35 Erin: Rip your head off?

00:06:36 Cinnamon: Yes. Thank you for volunteering. 

00:06:38 Erin: Okay. 

00:06:38 Cinnamon: Or even just be like a little snappy. But really what we're looking for when I walk in, I'm looking for someone to reciprocate my level of enthusiasm when they respond to my greeting, right? So I'm like, hey Thelma, and you're like, hey Louise. That way, right? 

00:06:55 Erin: Yeah.

00:06:56 Cinnamon: Although that's not your name. But if instead of saying, hey, Louise, you say, ugh, what? Or–

00:07:06 Erin: Or you're home. It's time for you to be home already. 

00:07:10 Cinnamon: I would say it would be more likely where you might say hi back, but with less enthusiasm and clearly a carryover of the aggravation. Or you may be up in your head and still engaging with the kid or just not present, and you either ignore me or it feels very dismissive. So whatever it looks like, if it's not reciprocating my enthusiasm, then it's going to be a surprise to me and my literal system. And I'm gonna pick up on all that because I can hear your tone, I can see your face, I can tell whether or not we're making eye contact, I can read all your body language. 

00:07:53 Cinnamon: So what happens then, because I'm coming home to you and I'm excited to see you, and to the best of my knowledge, you feel about me the way I feel about you, I've let my guard down. I've let my defenses down. I've lowered that drop ridge, right? And so when you don't reciprocate that warm welcome, then all of a sudden, my nervous system is gonna shift. And I have got to hustle and roll up that drawbridge really fast because now I'm hurt, right? 

00:08:30 Erin: You gotta protect yourself. 

00:08:31 Cinnamon: Yeah, I let down my guard and you basically slapped me across the face and said, I don't feel about you, about the way you feel about me. You are not as enthusiastic to see me. And so then when that starts to change, then we're having this massive shift in our defensiveness or like our nervous system, right? So what ends up happening is what we term as–

00:08:59 Cinnamon/Erin: BIOLOGICAL RUDENESS. 

00:09:02 Cinnamon: Say it again for us, boys and girls? 

00:09:04 Erin: BIOLOGICAL RUDENESS. Hmm. What does that mean? 

00:09:08 Cinnamon: So it ends up creating this emotional response of being hurt, right? So think, rejection. Then we create this personal narrative of being offended, like I did this and then she had the nerve to do this, right? And then you're going to possibly end up with a… aggressive reaction. 

00:09:31 Erin: Right.

00:09:31 Cinnamon: Right. 

00:09:32 Erin: And this is what we hear about often when folks do not deescalate, decompress after their crazy shift and they just bulldoze into the door and the wife is excited to see them or the husband depending. And next thing you know, it's like, it turns into this whole idea that, oh my gosh, my husband has turned into such an a-hole. He doesn't even want to see me when he comes home from work. 

00:09:53 Cinnamon: I love that you just said a-hole. I'm going to ask you to give it a little more punch. 

00:09:57 Erin: My husband's turned into a massive asshole. 

00:09:59 Cinnamon: There we go. 

00:10:00 Erin: I've been saying a-hole because we've been doing–

00:10:02 Cinnamon: Public. 

00:10:02 Erin: Public annual wellness assessments, and I want to have a little bit of–

00:10:06 Cinnamon: Stop. Couth. Stop. 

00:10:08 Erin: Some of them are–

00:10:08 Cinnamon: Couth is overrated. 

00:10:09 Erin: Some of them don't. 

00:10:09 [Cinnamon]: I can't believe it. Oh my goodness. Sheesh, what a cuss word. 

00:10:13 Erin: So next thing you know, we may be in an argument.

00:10:16 Cinnamon: But if we pause it and go to our corners and have to talk to our trainers and they're like, what are you fighting about? And you're like, I don't know. 

00:10:23 Erin: We're fighting about my feelings being hurt. 

00:10:25 Cinnamon: Yeah. And so if you don't give me that response or I don't give you that response and we get hurt over that, then maybe our response will be, well, what's wrong with you? 

00:10:39 Erin: Yep. 

00:10:40 Cinnamon: And so I'm doing that as a defense, right? So I feel attacked by the absence of your reciprocation. And then when I say something like, what's wrong with you? 

00:10:50 Erin: What's your problem? 

00:10:51 Cinnamon: You feel attacked and you're like, I've been here all day with these kids and you have the audacity after running around in your little cruiser or sitting in your lazy boys and having lunch and playing with all your friends. 

00:11:02 Erin: Playing pickleball. 

00:11:03 Cinnamon: Playing pickleball. You know who you are. And so now you're defending yourself when you come at me but I'm defending myself based on your reaction when I first came into the environment. So next thing we know, we are both feeling very justified in potentially being aggressive because we're both feeling like we're playing, coming from a place of defensiveness. So once we know that this isn't about one, our relationship or us singularly, but it is a biological reaction because we are built to survive and we are built to have defense mechanisms to ensure that survival, then it makes sense and we don't have to take it so personally. 

00:11:52 Cinnamon: And we can understand it better if I walk in and I've had a rough day or I walk in and I've had an average day but you've had a rough day or God forbid, I walk in after a rough day and you've had a rough day and then it all goes haywire because we take that step back. There's a rule for the most part in my house that when my husband gets home after we're both done working, like, we don't talk for like an hour. And it really is because we are both still in the headspace of work. And we talk to our people in our work environment very differently than we talk to each other in our home environment. 

00:12:34 Erin: Right. 

00:12:35 Cinnamon: So we have to take that time to decompress before we come back together and can talk to each other like husband and wife. Rather than if I end up talking to my husband, like he's one of my clients, and my husband does not like being talked to like he's a bro. And that's how I talk to my clients. And he has pointed out on more than one occasion that whatever situation we're in, a high five is not appropriate. But that's exactly where I go, to first. I'm like, high five, buddy! And he's like, okay, buddy. Like, it's weird for him. But my brain hasn't shifted.

00:13:11 Erin: You have to, yeah, shift from one caricature to another, depending on what setting that you're in. Well, how does this all tie together to the ACEs? 

00:13:22 Cinnamon: So I say all that because, well, yes, we have this biological construct that we're working off of. Some of it can also be fueled by our past experiences of how we learned how to communicate, how we operate in conflict, how we feel in terms of the freedom of expressing our emotions and being vulnerable versus pulling all of our cards back and being like, well, screw you. If you're going to talk to me like that, then I'm going to not get softer and say, oh my gosh, honey, did you have a hard day? And you're like, let me tell you about the four-year-old and the chicken nuggets. 

00:14:06 Erin: Right. 

00:14:07 Cinnamon: Rather, I don't think, oh. She's had a rough day. Let me give her some grace. I'm going to think, what the hell is wrong with you? 

00:14:18 Erin: You should be so excited to see me. And yes, where's my parade? 

00:14:22 Cinnamon: And where is my soft place to land after a rough day? 

00:14:25 Erin: Right, okay. 

00:14:26 Cinnamon: So if we can be aware, if we have an increased awareness of that, and know that one, we're already biologically geared to do that, and then two, you add on the icing of, this is what was modeled, this is my life experience, all of that, then now we can start talking about the investment of time and energy to learn how to do something different and the fact that actually do have the ability to change our brains in those automatic moments. So that's when we would introduce a term like neuroplasticity. 

00:15:02 Erin: So I want to say this too, and we touched on this in the last episode, that just because we've done this, certain behaviors or reacted this way for our entire lives does not mean that it can't change. We can't learn something new. We can't adapt and grow. And it's going to take a certain level of time and energy and commitment and intention. And our brains are a miraculous thing. This is why we're obsessed with them because they can morph and change and they're like transformers. And this is where the whole neuroplasticity comes in.

00:15:38 Cinnamon: Well, and I think part of the reason we, specifically, you and I, are so connected to this and believe in it so much and want the people that we've come to care about in the first responder community to believe it is because it happened to us. 

00:15:56 Erin: Right. 

00:15:56 Cinnamon: Like, no one would have taken our advice 15 years ago, nor should they have. 

00:16:02 Erin: Right. 

00:16:02 Cinnamon: So we are excellent examples. I think we could create a hotline where you could call in and hear a recorded segment from either one of our parents about how we've changed over 15 years and how much work it put in. But to recognize that when somebody doesn't have a whole lot of barriers to change, we are so excited that it's possible and we just want other people to know, like you don't have to live like this anymore if you don't want to. And that's where this concept of neuroplasticity comes in. 

00:16:38 Erin: What is it? 

00:16:39 Cinnamon: I'm so glad you asked, Erin. Louise, I'm Louise. Oh, that's–

00:16:43 Erin: Whatever.

00:16:44 Cinnamon: It's off the wall. So neuroplasticity is kind of like a very formal term for brain change. So the idea that despite whatever development our brain has already had, we can still create different pathways, new ways of thinking, it can adapt to healthier ways of being if that's what we choose. Now while all of these past experiences don't necessarily change our DNA, like it doesn't change our brain cells in terms of the construct, it does change how that DNA works. So our brain cells can change in response to our behavior.

00:17:29 Cinnamon: So maybe if you look under the microscope and you're just looking at a brain cell, it may look the same before and after, but how it operates, like how it does its job is going to look different. And when we practice a lot of these behaviors intentionally, then we can develop and strengthen new connections and pathways that change how our circuitry is wired, which allows us to, you know, I think it goes from, I react in a way that I don't like. And then I learned that there's a possibility of reacting differently. And maybe I get a couple ideas of how to do that. And I said, okay, I'm going to go home and I'm going to go try those things.

00:18:13 Cinnamon: And then you get home and you completely forget what you heard the first time. And I'll use like sessions, right? Because that's usually the context. So then you come to your next session, you talk about how like, you know, I had every intention of doing it this different way now that I knew something. And yet I went on autopilot and I didn't do it and I failed and I'm never gonna learn how to do this. And I'm like, okay, well, how many times did you have to ride a bike with training wheels, right? 

00:18:37 Cinnamon: So then next time you still don't do it, but maybe an hour later you're like, oh, me. I could have done it that way, I forgot. And then you come back and you learn a little bit more and then you go back out into the world and maybe you think of it, but you're like, screw that. I'm mad. And I'm not gonna do this thing because that feels like I'm pulling punches and I'm giving too much [grace] to somebody that's pissed me off. 

00:19:04 Erin: Yeah. 

00:19:05 Cinnamon: And so I have it in my mind, but I don't want to execute it. And so then we come back and we talk about, okay, well, who did it really harm? Right? Like if I don't want to offer up that [grace] to somebody else, I'm gonna use an old behavior. 

00:19:20 Erin: Yep. Well, at the end of the day, then we're harmed. 

00:19:22 Cinnamon: Exactly. 

00:19:23 Erin: Because we're just instilling we are practicing that old behavior, we're strengthening, reinforcing, thank you, that's what I'm looking for. That old behavior, I don't think I've told the story on here, but it's that example of when my husband and I got into a massive argument one morning, and all I really wanted was a hug. I was not feeling well, I might have talked about it in the first ACEs episode, and my husband was sitting on the bed and he knew I could just get up right now, wrap my arms around her, and give her a hug. And I know that would like, diffuse the entire thing and it would all just go away. But I don't want to, because screw her. She sucks or whatever. 

00:20:02 Cinnamon: That sounds like a four-year-old saying that. 

00:20:03 Erin: Right, which, it probably was his four-year-old, right? 

00:20:06 Cinnamon: I was thinking, your four-year-old. 

00:20:07 Erin: Oh, well both. 

00:20:07 Cinnamon: Yeah. 

00:20:09 Erin: But it is that thing. It's like, that feels like I would be out of integrity for something wild like that because it's something we've done for so long. 

00:20:19 Cinnamon: I'm not gonna give in.

00:20:20 Erin: Right.

00:20:21 Cinnamon: And entertain her bullshit. 

00:20:22 Erin: Right, but it's like that goes back to that, do you want to be right? Or do you want to be happy? And at the end of the day, when you practice, like I'm just going to go give the hug, then the other person, like you, as the individual that's having that screw you, I don't want to hug you response, it will lessen and lessen and lessen to where it just says, now it's time for the hug. 

00:20:43 Cinnamon: Well, yeah, because if I say, screw you, I'm not going to do that, I'm going to end up with a shit show. But if I go give you a hug despite how much I really don't want to, but, I know that it's probably the most effective thing to do. And I get the reward of not having an angry version of you, but I have the version of you who feels comforted and consoled and safe. And so instead of screaming at me, you may cry and get it out and then you get to feel loved and supported and then you continue. So then that gets reinforced because who doesn't want to feel like they have the capacity to “fix something” versus having an argument.

00:21:37 Erin: Hey there, listener. If you could ask any question or freely talk about any challenge related to being on the job and no one would know, what would you say? We are excited to share about our confidential hotline that we created just for you. Through this confidential hotline, you can leave a message sharing a success, a struggle, or simply ask a question. We will spotlight calls and offer feedback and insight from a licensed therapist and a certified coach who work exclusively with first responders. 

00:22:10 Erin: You can access our hotline voicemail by visiting afterthetonesdrop.com and clicking the voicemail tab. Additionally, you can join our mailing list if you'd like or easily follow us on Facebook and Instagram for all the most recent updates. You know the drill. Telephone, tell a friend, tell a first responder.

00:22:42 Erin: So basically it's like the brain is forming new pathways. Kind of like when you are building a detour on a road. Is that an accurate way to kind of describe it? 

00:22:52 Cinnamon: Yeah. I mean, when we start seeing off the highway where construction trucks are driving, it looks very different on day one of construction than it does on day 732. 

00:23:05 Erin: Right, when the ramp is finally built. 

00:23:07 Cinnamon: Right. 

00:23:08 Erin: When it's a new direction. 

00:23:10 Cinnamon: And even like, the dirt road or the off road that they have to take. Like, it looks way more worn than it did on the first day of construction. And so it really is like, the more you use it, the stronger it gets. 

00:23:24 Erin: Yeah. 

00:23:25 Cinnamon: Which is the opposite of what happens in our childhood when we talked first episode about ACEs, where yes, there is a blueprint, but if your environment is forcing you to do something different, out of safety and survival, then you're strengthening these maladaptive coping mechanisms, rather than which maladaptive pathways, rather than the, oh, I have a healthy sense of security and I don't have to worry about where my next meal is going to come from, or whether or not my little brother is going to make a lot of noise when we're hiding under the bed, when dad is mad at mom and he's drunk and they're having a fistfight.

00:24:09 Cinnamon: So fistfight may not be the best word to describe that, but that's minor compared to the bigger picture. So as we're building those new pathways, like we have a million reasons to justify why we don't want to do it, mostly revolving around like, we like to be stubborn, but there's three different kinds of change that happen with neuroplasticity. And I think being able to recognize that it is in someone's long-term benefit to do things that allow them to remain in control of their emotions, like what we would call emotional intelligence, where if I say, Erin, you made me mad, then I just gave you all my power, and I also lied because you can't make me mad. 

00:25:01 Erin: I can do something that can trigger anger inside of you, but I didn't actually create the emotion of being mad.

00:25:09 Cinnamon: Right, because it's not, you do something is point A, and I get a feeling is point B. That is not how that works. It's point A is, you do something. Point B is I have my thoughts about it. I interpret your behavior. And then C is, we finally get to my feelings. So if my interpretation is based on defensiveness or assuming malintent, then yeah, I'm going to end up with negative emotions. 

00:25:42 Cinnamon: And so if you cut me off in traffic, I can easily say she made me mad because she cut me off in traffic. Because my interpretation is you were intentionally being inconsiderate, disregarding my safety and just focusing on whatever you wanted to do, right? But if my interpretation after you cut me off in traffic is, oh, mercy, I wonder if there's a pregnant lady in the back seat lying down giving birth right now and she's in a rush to get to the hospital. 

00:26:12 Cinnamon: Then my emotion instead of anger might be like curiosity or empathy or compassion and something that allows me to, like let it go right then and there and I move on. So when we start to see how to change our brain, we have those structural changes. Those are going to be, how our connections are altering our brain structure. Then we have the chemical change, and that typically requires more effort and more time. And it's when we practice things and they move from short-term into those long-term ways of being. 

00:26:53 Cinnamon: And then we have the functional change, which is, when now a repetitive behavior and we become more efficient and it looks like fluency. So that may look like instead of automatically getting defensive when I get home, I have now created the new behavior that when I realize, you know what, she's been home with our four-year-old all day. And the fact that she does this all alone most days, and she has got to be exhausted and she's never had a break, you know, that child requires constant supervision. 

00:27:31 Cinnamon: Then when I come home, maybe she snaps, but instead of snapping back and getting defensive, I've seen the benefit of changing my behavior. Now it's more valuable to me to do it. There's a better outcome. And to the point where my first response, reaction, automatic reaction is to go over and give you a hug. 

00:27:53 Erin: Oh, it seems like you've had a hard day. 

00:27:55 Cinnamon: Yeah. 

00:27:55 Erin: Right. 

00:27:57 Cinnamon: And–

00:27:57 Erin: Passion. 

00:27:58 Cinnamon: Yeah. And so think how many fights we could avoid. 

00:28:01 Erin: Oh, so many. 

00:28:02 Cinnamon: If we didn't have those initial combative encounters because we have created a story about somebody not reciprocating how we react. 

00:28:14 Erin: Yeah. 

00:28:15 Cinnamon: So that's–

00:28:17 Erin: That's that part. 

00:28:18 Cinnamon: That's that part.

00:28:18 Erin: That's that part that she was really trying not to get all like technical with, but it's hard to–

00:28:22 Cinnamon: It's hard to not get technical. 

00:28:24 Erin: Right. So how do we build resilience then? 

00:28:27 Cinnamon: So this is the one thing that I want to make, like so many of our families' lives are really challenging, right? Just like the day to day, I wanted to find ways that I could offer up suggestions as activities or things to do to build that resilience that did not create heavy lifting. And so it can be as simple as creating a new habit, driving a different way to work, shopping at a new store. So instead of going to the Kroger around the corner, you go to the Meijer, three exits south of your house. It could be listening to a new music genre. One thing that you and I love to do is to go down Google rabbit holes. And–

00:29:14 Erin: It's always the healthiest choice, but, hey. 

00:29:17 Cinnamon: No, but I know that I end up learning all kinds of things about things I didn't know anything about when I start in one place and then all of a sudden keep clicking, clicking, clicking until all of a sudden I come back to either you or my husband and I'm like, did you know that rabbits on average birth 12 babies at a time, which I don't know if that's true. But again, it's, you know, creating those new pathways, learning new things. Because if we accentuate our ability to learn, then it works across the board. 

00:29:56 Cinnamon: The other parts outside of things like that, of trying something new, is, behave mindfully. Take that pause before you walk in the door and recognize, this is how it's gone in the past. I don't want it to go that way. This is how I would like it to go. So I'm going to not have that reactive, automatic response when maybe perhaps you don't greet me in the way that I feel like I deserve, with my slippers and a cocktail and dinner on the table at five while you're in your pretty little clean new apron since you changed in a half hour before I got home from work. 

00:30:36 Erin: What is it? The 1950s? 

00:30:37 Cinnamon: Well, I think that actually is like a very specific thing out of a 1950s, like how to be a housewife kind of book, is that you take a few minutes before your husband gets home and you freshen up your rouge and you put on a clean dress and you get the kids cleaned up. Oh, yeah. 

00:30:51 Erin: Oh, no, I believe it. 

00:30:52 Cinnamon: Oh, yeah. 

00:30:53 Erin: Definitely. That was definitely–

00:30:55 Cinnamon: It was a good time for that. 

00:30:56 Erin: Yeah. So really, what it boils down to is like standing in your garage for a second and choosing the way of being. I'm not sure what I'm going to walk into in, this moment, but I do know that I have the power to choose right now that no matter what it is, I'm going to react in this way. 

00:31:14 Cinnamon: I'm going to stay calm. 

00:31:15 Erin: I’m going to stay calm. I'm going to take a deep breath. I'm going to–

00:31:19 Cinnamon: Be empathetic rather than defensive. 

00:31:21 Erin: Right. And what that does too is it helps you de-escalate from whatever chaos that was happening in the day automatically because you were choosing to shift. And then it also will help your spouse or whomever you're walking into have that same experience as well. 

00:31:36 Cinnamon: I would also say in conjunction with that, being able to not get caught up in the emotion, like rather than saying like, I'm angry, being able to say, I'm noticing that I'm feeling angry. 

00:31:51 Erin: Yep. 

00:31:51 Cinnamon: And I know that when I feel angry, I get defensive and I want to lash out. So because I'm aware that I'm feeling angry, I'm going to make this other choice rather than getting swooped up or caught up in that emotion. It's the, I am, which I am not angry. I am Cinnamon versus I am–

00:32:14 Cinnamon/Erin: Feeling.

00:32:15 Cinnamon: Angry. And we also know that behaving angrily is different than feeling angry, but that's for another episode another time. I also think like as much as we say this and it's kind of joked about, but meditation and meditation could literally be 60 seconds of just like stopping everything else, being mindful, being in present moment and grounding yourself rather than almost like just your trajectory, just continues as the day moves forward but you actually are deciding about how your day is gonna go. 

00:32:52 Erin: Yeah, and the thing with meditation too is that we're not choosing to be elsewhere. The concept of meditation is completely being in the present moment. So take 60 seconds, like notice your breath for a minute, notice what sounds you hear, notice what smells you smell, like that can even be meditative. It's a signal to your brain that we're doing something different that gets you regrounded. Get yourself grounded. Well, what the hell does that mean? You know, a lot of people don't know what that even means. 

00:33:20 Cinnamon: Be where your feet are. 

00:33:21 Erin: Exactly. Or your butt. 

00:33:22 Cinnamon: And that, we've talked about that before. But I also want to give a little shout out to Amber Wonderly Miskovich. She is a former firefighter, yogi expert and–

00:33:34 Erin: We're going to have her on the show. 

00:33:35 Cinnamon: Yeah, we like her. We like her a lot. I'm a little bit of a fan boy. And she talks about, like, “Be where your feet are.” But it is that awareness of like, your day almost doesn't have to go so fast where like at the end of the day, we're like, oh my God, where did it go? 

00:33:52 Erin: Right. 

00:33:52 Cinnamon: Well, the day was going while you were either in the past or the future. That's where it went. I mean, it was happening, you just weren't here for it. So the next two, kind of go together. And I think these are interesting because again, a lot of people will interpret them as woo woo, but it really is scientific as far as how it contributes to changing those pathways. 

00:34:20 Cinnamon: And the first is decreasing complaints. I am very aware. I am a notorious complainer. And what I've had to learn is complaining is a way where I can stave off getting hit by that two by four upside the head without seeing it coming. Right? So complaints are just outward expressions of identified threats. Right? Like, oh, that car is parked so close to me. Right? Why would I get mad about a car parking? I don't give a shit how somebody else parks and where they're shopping and why they're in this parking lot. So why do I care when I get to my car and I see that somebody is parked super close to me? Why am I mad about that, Erin? 

00:35:09 Erin: Well, I know I've been mad about it, and that's because I don't want someone to ding my car. But also, it's because I am not actually being present in the moment, to what is. 

00:35:18 Cinnamon: Well, yeah. And so now you just identified the threat. 

00:35:22 Erin: Right. 

00:35:22 Cinnamon: Because the threat is–

00:35:24 Erin: They're gonna hit my car. 

00:35:24 Cinnamon: They're gonna hit my car, and I'm gonna have to take care of it. And so not being in the moment, you're already down at the body shop, shelling out last week's paycheck to pay for it. Right? So I really don't give two shits, how close somebody parks to me. 

00:35:38 Erin: I just don't want them to hit my car. 

00:35:40 Cinnamon: What I care about is having to shell out money to fix my car. 

00:35:43 Erin: Right. 

00:35:44 Cinnamon: So complaints are just outward expressions of threats. And so if I'm constantly complaining, that means that my focus is constantly on the threats. So when we decrease our complaints, we also, in conjunction with that, want to increase our gratitude. And so it's kind of like, I think we talked about this on the podcast before. Like if I'm driving and I'm like, oh, I don't want to hit that bush over there, then I sure as shit shouldn't be staring at the bush. I should be staring at the road where I want to go. 

00:36:15 Cinnamon: So what I'm focusing on is where I'm headed. And if I'm focused on all of my complaints, then that's where I'm headed. Negative. If I focus on my gratitude, then I'm changing where my attention is, which is going to help change where those pathways go. 

00:36:37 Erin: Yep. 

00:36:38 Cinnamon: And that can look like, I am so glad that if that person who parks so close to me, dings my car, that I have insurance. I'm so grateful that I even have a car to get dinged. I'm grateful that I can pay my monthly insurance and I'm covered beyond liability only. And that I have the money to pay the deductible, like whatever it is, right? Like–

00:37:03 Erin: Yeah. I have the money to get the gas, to get to the store. Also, then I have the money to buy the food when I'm in the store, and the ability to walk into the store. 

00:37:12 Cinnamon: It's my car, I'm supervised. 

00:37:14 Erin: I have two working legs. You can go and go and go and go and go. We play this game sometimes at dinner where my husband is the cook in the house, he's an awesome cook, and we always say thank you for our food, kind of our thing. But sometimes we'll play this game where it's like, how many hands did it take to make this meal? So we go down this whole thing of like, well, it took the seamstress that made the overalls that the farmer wore so that he could go out and he could harvest this corn. And then it took the guy that came through and we'll go into the whole breakdown of what it took to put this meal on our table in front of our face. And there's so many hands involved to put that meal in front of us. And it's just–

00:37:56 Cinnamon: It's not just the Kroger employees that put it on the shelf? 

00:37:58 Erin: No, and there's those guys too. And then there's the guy that writes the paycheck for those people. And then there's all, so it goes on and on and on. And the thing is there's something that I really find to be very important about gratitude and about how we create new habits in our day-to-day life. I don't know about you all listening, but I know that very few people are harder on me than me. And when I've had this practice and learned behaviors for so dang long, I often will be like, oh, here I go again, doing this thing again. 

00:38:29 Erin: And so I really wanna emphasize as part of gratitude is a daily, even wins journal, I call them wins journals. And it's like sitting down at the end of the day and reflecting, what are three things that you did well that you would consider a win of the day. And that's also a level of acknowledgement. It's taking that, here you go again, you're such an a-hole, you're being stupid again, to wow, you did a really awesome job at making sure that you made your bed today. It can be something as insignificant as that. 

00:39:04 Erin: Or your daughter, you know, here, you did such a great job at not freaking out on your kid when they were having a meltdown and acknowledging yourself for the things that you did well. So not only is that a space of gratitude, but it's a space of retraining your brain from talking negatively and shitty about yourself to acknowledging yourself for the things that you're doing well. 

00:39:26 Cinnamon: And a good accompaniment to that would be what we talk about, like the shoulding on yourself, right? So, a lot of times we don't praise ourselves or don't praise others around us because we feel like it's something we should do, which is a judgment word. But it also is a missed opportunity. Like, regardless of what we should do, like, this is what we did. And that gets to have value regardless of whether or not it was what we should have done or shouldn't have done. 

00:39:58 Cinnamon: Because a lot of people don't always do the thing. Like, not everyone is 100% of the time going to be able to refrain from reacting to their kids having a meltdown. And so when we do, do it, rather than saying what we should do every time, saying, I do not do this every time. And so when I do it, hell yeah, I'm giving myself some praise. 

00:40:22 Erin: Yeah, like, no, you shouldn't, because in fact you don't. So therefore the should is out the door. Like, it's that whole idea.

00:40:32 Erin: Hey, there, to all you fearless folks who've been tuning in to After the Tones Drop, you know, we've been dishing out some real deal mental health wisdom for our first responders. And we need your help to keep it rolling. So here's the deal. Take a minute and do us a favor by leaving a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform. And listen, we're not expecting a novel here. Just a few lines about what you're appreciating about the show. 

00:40:58 Erin: Whether it's our interviews, perhaps the educational aspect or just our goofy humor and metaphors. And your feedback, it's like the gasoline in our engine, fueling us to bring you more of the good stuff. So let's keep that siren wailing and those reviews pouring in. Thanks, we appreciate you.

00:41:24 Erin: I want to also add into doing these kind things for ourselves and acknowledging ourselves, it's also that idea of when in doubt, focus out. So when you want to retrain your brain, it's like doing something kind for others, like being in contribution, doing something kind for a stranger or making a donation or even holding a door. It's for somebody as they're walking in. It's being in practicing goodwill and being in contribution to your fellow man or woman. 

00:41:55 Cinnamon: So I can give a little example of that, that happened last week and I kind of told you a little bit about this story. But my husband has a friend and he's had this friend since college. And I haven't gotten to spend a lot of time with that man's wife. And I have for years wanted to develop a friendship with her because I see her husband a lot and I really like him and it would be fun to have more of a connection with her.

00:42:22 Cinnamon: So we had been talking last week over text, I reached out to her and at first it was a little bit uncomfortable because you don't want to always like, hey, you want to play, you want to be friends? And you don't know how to react. 

00:42:34 Erin: At least not when you're our age. 

00:42:35 Cinnamon: Right.

00:42:36 Cinnamon/Erin: We should. 

00:42:37 Erin: Just kidding. But it'd be great if we did that. 

00:42:39 Cinnamon: Yeah. So we started talking over text after I reached out and realized that we have a bunch of stuff in common and we got super excited about actually getting to schedule some time together. And then we both dropped the ball. We both dropped the ball. And so the other night, my husband was talking about this friend and I was like, oh shit, I need to text this way. So I texted her and I'm like, hey, I dropped the ball. And she said, I did too. I'm so glad you reached out. And I said, listen, I have this day free. And if it would work, to coffee, lunch, driveway meetup, like whatever. If it would work, great, let's do it. And if not, I'm happy to find another day on my schedule.

00:43:21 Cinnamon: And she came back and she's like, I've been sick the last couple of days. I'm a little bit behind the eight ball. I'm trying to figure out how much work I can catch up. And I don't know if I'm going to be free on Monday. And she's like, but I will let you know as soon as I can. And my response to her was the last text of the day, because it was like heading towards 10 PM and I said, listen, if we have to wait until a few weeks out or even after the holidays, like when we get a chance to hang out, I don't want either one of us to feel pressed on either side of our start or stop time, I just want it to be fun and relaxing. 

00:43:57 Cinnamon: And I didn't hear from her the rest of the night. And then the next morning around 7 AM, I got a text and she said, Oh my God, you are so amazing. Thank you so much. I don't think I realized how much I needed to hear that. Where somebody didn't have expectations was completely understanding of the need for flexibility and that somebody's ability to do something doesn't always reflect their desire to do it. 

00:44:23 Erin: Right. 

00:44:23 Cinnamon: Right? Like I could have gotten all but hurt and taken it personally and been like, oh, well, she says she wants to hang out with me, but she–

00:44:30 Erin: Why isn't she trying [whether]? 

00:44:31 Cinnamon: Right. 

00:44:32 Erin: Why isn't she sacrificing herself for the quality time she'd get with Cinnamon? 

00:44:37 Cinnamon: Right. Who doesn't want that? 

00:44:38 Erin: I mean, gosh. So that is a nice way of practicing goodwill. It's like putting your fellow human ahead of your own desires, needs, wants. 

00:44:48 Cinnamon: And I was telling the truth. 

00:44:50 Erin: Well, I know you were. 

00:44:51 Cinnamon: And so for her to come back and say, oh my gosh. 

00:44:55 Erin: I needed that. 

00:44:55 Cinnamon: I needed that. 

00:44:56 Erin: Yeah. 

00:44:57 Cinnamon: And I think that kind of ties into the last little bit of what we've been talking about with building resiliency. And this ties back to our past experiences and how we see the world is we get to intentionally practice assuming goodwill. We are so geared to look for people to screw us over. And we love to assume the worst. 

00:45:26 Erin: Yeah. Well, and in this culture, it's like you get a lot of the worst. And so we might not even be assuming. It's just like, we're so used to seeing the worst. 

00:45:35 Cinnamon: Why wouldn't we–  

00:45:36 Erin: Expect the worst. 

00:45:36 Cinnamon: Expect the worst. 

00:45:37 Erin: Right. 

00:45:37 Cinnamon: And I think one of the places we talked about this, a little bit in Columbus, was administrative betrayal and how you've got to think if we know that these communities do these jobs that foster a lack of trust, that then by the time we are in our career several years and we promote it into leadership roles, we've been dipped in that toxic chocolate a few times. And what that can look like is a little bit of what we went through during COVID, which was everybody seemed to be so worried about you all abusing the allotted time off after a COVID exposure. 

00:46:25 Cinnamon: And in some departments, we miraculously saw people saying, hey, if you need the time off, take the time off, we want to make sure that we're not contributing. And then we also had the experience of people being so consumed and so worried with people abusing the time off. And we've had these other conversations, again, about that distrust and worrying about employees abusing things. And I just think like, to me, that is such a good place to start practicing goodwill, like assuming goodwill. 

00:47:05 Cinnamon: Because even if I have 10 people and five of them are trying to dupe me and five of them are legit. If I am so focused on making sure I don't get duped, I'm gonna maybe catch five people, but I'm also gonna be a complete dick and do shitty things to the five people who were really, like sick or were serious about it. And we even talk about that in terms of disability when it comes to PTSD and that being recognized and how do you show an injury when there's nothing you can really catch on an MRI or a CAT scan. 

00:47:42 Erin: Right. 

00:47:42 Cinnamon: So if I have the choice between catching five guys, but alienating five guys and mistreating five guys when what they need is that support, or the other choice of, you know what, five slid by me and they got me. But the five that really needed that support and needed me to believe them, then they got that.

00:48:07 Erin: Well, and it creates… that creates a ripple effect, too. 

00:48:10 Cinnamon: Yeah. 

00:48:11 Erin: And on the positive side. Well, I see that chief or whatever saw this honesty or the need for this and these people which tells me I can trust them, which tells me I can go to them when I'm struggling, da da da da da, so on and so forth. Okay, so. 

00:48:26 Cinnamon: All right. So now we're going to wrap this up. So when we talk about, like developing an early warning system, I want folks to consider. And maybe this is a conversation with your friends, your family, your spouse, your significant other, whatever. Like, what are my signs and symptoms when I'm stressed at work, when I'm stressed at home? What is the feedback that I get consistently from my loved ones when I'm stressed? And when I do hear about myself from other people, how do I react to that feedback? Like, do I get defensive? Do I try to justify? What am I bringing home? Like just because I may not be telling my family the stories about the gruesome things that I saw today doesn't mean that I'm not carting home my mood. 

00:49:11 Erin: Right. 

00:49:12 Cinnamon: And then I would challenge folks, and I think this is, the important part is, what's the cost of not addressing these signs? What's the cost of continuing to be defensive? And I think the number one would be relationships. 

00:49:29 Erin: Yeah.

00:49:30 Cinnamon: Divorces, the alienation from children, the toxic work environment that everybody has a bit of a hand in creating. 

00:49:37 Erin: Yeah, I like to use the tool, like creating a little chart where this diagram is, kind of like, looks like a T and on one side of the column it says, what prices am I paying for continuing this behavior? Like, how am I being punished? What am I losing? And then what prices are other people paying by these behaviors and by not intentionally choosing to grow or adapt with new healthy tools and coping mechanisms? And that's what I believe is what Cinnamon is saying when she's saying like, what is the cost of not addressing it? 

00:50:08 Cinnamon: Or being willing to change. 

00:50:11 Erin: Right. 

00:50:11 Cinnamon: I would also throw out the question that one could ask themselves, how could I feel or how could I live? What would my life look like if this were different? 

00:50:21 Erin: Yeah.

00:50:22 Cinnamon: Right? Like if we don't look at the possibilities, then it's easier to stay in our way and believe that we're right. 

00:50:30 Erin: Yeah, you got to have a vision. You got to have an end game. There needs to be more than I just, this sucks. Needs to be like this idea of, I can see that I can have this loving, connected, open, honest, trusting relationship with my partner if I change these things. And who wouldn't want that ease in their relationships, their personal relationships? 

00:50:50 Cinnamon: Well, and then it feels like a decision that I'm making about and a choice I'm making about who I want to be in this relationship. Whereas if I'm just like on autopilot, I will be the first one to admit I am my father's daughter. And I've said it, on here and I've said it everywhere else. My dad's an asshole. I love him, but he's an asshole. And so that means when I'm doing the things that I've learned to do in those ways of being, then most likely 10 out of 10 times I'm going to be an asshole. And that's really not who I am. And so I'm not being my actual self. I'm just being what was modeled. 

00:51:31 Erin: Right, you're being what you've practiced. 

00:51:33 Cinnamon: Yeah. 

00:51:33 Erin: What you, the residual. 

00:51:35 Cinnamon: And I can't identify my dad as an asshole and then not acknowledge that I'm also being an asshole if I'm doing those old behaviors. 

00:51:43 Erin: Right. 

00:51:44 Cinnamon: So I think we need to wrap this up. We've been talking for a while and we can talk forever. 

00:51:48 Erin: We can talk about this forever. Yeah. 

00:51:51 Cinnamon: But we got places to be and things to do and people to visit. So in conclusion, what's important to say is our past does not have to define us. But it certainly explains a lot of things. 

00:52:07 Erin: That’s right.

00:52:08 Cinnamon: We may need to re-examine how we have reflected on and remembered our childhood. Because we do, in that first episode, we do kind of talk about the ways that we have said, well, yeah, I had this done to me when I was a kid, but look, I turned out fine. And who knows? Of course you have turned out fine. However, is there an option to be finer? 

00:52:34 Erin: To be more fine or to, yes, you may have turned out fine, and it doesn't mean that it didn't leave some kind of paper cut there that has impacted the way that you show up in your current phase of life.

00:52:49 Cinnamon: Even a paper cut can leave a scar. 

00:52:51 Erin: Oh, snap. 

00:52:53 Cinnamon: That looks like it needs to be a quote on, social media thing. 

00:52:58 Erin: There you go. Look at her. She's taking over the social. 

00:53:01 Cinnamon: No, God. 

00:53:02 Erin: Even a paper cut can cause a scar. There you go. Yeah. So it's true though. Yeah. You might be fine. We get it. I turned out fine. And also you can be finer. 

00:53:16 Cinnamon: Well, and isn't that the whole reason we're here is to become the best version of ourselves. And if I'm willing to be satisfied with those basic mindless things that I do, on automatic, then nine times out of 10, that is not a reflection of what I'm actually capable of. 

00:53:40 Erin: Yep. 

00:53:41 Cinnamon: So the last thing that I would say is we don't want to go without acknowledging, like this does take intention. It takes daily effort. It takes mindfulness. 

00:53:54 Erin: It takes self-compassion. 

00:53:56 Cinnamon: And that time and space to do those things that we've suggested are not necessarily gonna just open up to us organically. Like we have to create that time, prioritize those things, because if we're just waiting, I'm like, it's so busy right now, I just don't have the time. Well, how many times in the last six years have you heard me say, Erin, things are gonna lighten up next month? 

00:54:23 Erin: I mean, forever, and they never do. 

00:54:25 Cinnamon: They have never lightened. 

00:54:26 Erin: You have to choose it in the moment. 

00:54:28 Cinnamon: Yep. And I think that there's so much value for our friends and our coworkers and our loved ones and ourselves, for us to make that choice to, even if it's just like 10 minutes to carve out, to commit to ourselves in learning new ways of doing things so we can get a little closer to the best versions of ourselves. Can I get–

00:54:56 Erin: Can I get an Amen? 

00:54:57 Cinnamon: Can I get an Amen? 

00:54:58 Erin: Amen! Yeah, all right. 

00:55:00 Cinnamon: So over the course of these three episodes, we hope we've done a sufficient job in helping our listeners understand what adverse childhood experiences are, how they impact our developing brain, how our childhood–

00:55:18 Erin: Childhood experiences affect our now with the nesting doll stories. 

00:55:23 Cinnamon: She loves the nesting dolls. 

00:55:25 Erin: I can't, I'm obsessed. 

00:55:26 Cinnamon: I had no idea that… what that was gonna do for you. 

00:55:29 Erin: Because it is the most profound, everybody I've told it, like you told me about, and I was like, my, I mean, seriously, my mind exploded in that moment. I was like, holy shit. But everybody I have told, even if they don't understand how any of this works and they don't get how we are affected by trauma or anything like that, or past experiences, stressful life experiences, and I explain this to them, they're like, oh my gosh. 

00:55:53 Erin: Cause I often will say like, of course this is your reaction. You've been doing this since you were 10 years old. Like that part of you has been living inside of you this whole time, so of course you're gonna, and then they're like, oh my gosh. And like, then I say, allow me to grab my nesting dolls. Anyways. 

00:56:09 Cinnamon: Do you also carry around Grey Poupon? 

00:56:12 Erin: No. 

00:56:13 Cinnamon: Oh. 

00:56:13 Erin: Nah. Not as effective. 

00:56:15 Cinnamon: Not as effective. All right. And then last, we kind of covered the idea of like, how do we, we could say build resiliency through neuroplasticity. Like we don't have to just stay that way. 

00:56:30 Erin: Yep. 

00:56:30 Cinnamon: We've got very simple tools. I mean, jeesh, take a different route home, right? 

00:56:36 Erin: Absolutely. And that whole bullshit story of like, well, I've been this way for this long. What's the point of changing now? Well, there's a lot of points.

00:56:42 Cinnamon: Old dogs can learn new tricks. 

00:56:44 Erin: That's right. So please be– 

00:56:46 Cinnamon: An old dog with a puppy-like attitude. 

00:56:49 Erin: That's right. 

00:56:52 Cinnamon: All right. It was good to talk to you all about our favorite things. We'll talk to you soon. 

00:56:57 Erin: Bye.

00:57:01 Erin: Thank you for joining us for today's episode of After the Tones Drop. Today's show has been brought to you by Whole House Counseling. As a note, After the Tones Drop is for informational purposes only and does not constitute for medical or psychological advice. It is not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Please contact a local mental health professional in your area if you are in need of any assistance.

00:57:29 Erin: You can also visit AfterTheTonesDrop.com and click on our resources tab for an abundance of helpful information. And we would like to give a very special thank you and shout out to Venz Adams, Yeti and Sonda for our show's music.